No SIDs/STARs

A

AnnaG

Pre-Flight
Joined
Aug 17, 2014
Messages
53
Display Name
Display name:
AnnaG
Okay, I understand that you do not have to accept a SID or STAR, and that you can note this on your IFR flight plan.

What I don't understand is why you wouldn't want a SID or STAR. I can't find anything that explains why.

The only theory I can come up with is that you either don't have the nav aids or the performance to comply. But that's just a guess.

Help?
 
If you don't have the required textual description.
 
AnnaG said:
Okay, I understand that you do not have to accept a SID or STAR, and that you can note this on your IFR flight plan.

What I don't understand is why you wouldn't want a SID or STAR. I can't find anything that explains why.

The only theory I can come up with is that you either don't have the nav aids or the performance to comply. But that's just a guess.

Help?
Click to expand...

Outside of the turbine world, I believe a lot of pilots put "No SID/STAR" on their flight plans just because they don't normally fly them and so they don't want to risk making a mistake. Seems silly to me, but we've had threads to that effect. Around Dallas even if you put that you will still get the SID/STAR waypoints and assigned altitudes, just feed to you vs. one simple entry in the flight plan.
 
The whole "no sids / no stars" is an outdated concept that originated back in the days before such procedures were included with IAPs. There's no reason today to add that phrase to your flight plan.

If the controller intends to give you a Sid or star, they're just going to give it to you step by step, wasting their time and yours.

Some IFR a pilots seem to be intimidated by sids and stars because they don't get them frequently, and are often associated with busier airspace, and may seem complicated. If your the sort of pilot who includes that in your flight plan, work with a CFI on your next BFR/IPC to get familiar with them.
 
At Dulles 9 times out of 10 they repeat the stupid SID information even when they use it.

All they need say is "Navion 5327K cleared to Long Island Airpark via Capital Eight, HANEY squawk 4321"

Half the time I get

Navion 5327K cleared to Long Island Airpark via Capital Eight Haney then as filed maintain 3000 expect 6000 ten minutes after departure, departure frequency 126.1, squawk 4321."

I guess it avoids telling me "expect radar vectors" but it hardly seems worth it.
 
What Brad and F'Ron said -- you can put that in the flight plan, but you'd better be ready to write down the entire procedure verbatim as the controller reads it to you, and then deal with whatever that annoyed controller does to punish you for wasting everyone else's time by making him/her do that.
 
Brad Z said:
The whole "no sids / no stars" is an outdated concept that originated back in the days before such procedures were included with IAPs. There's no reason today to add that phrase to your flight plan.

If the controller intends to give you a Sid or star, they're just going to give it to you step by step, wasting their time and yours.

Some IFR a pilots seem to be intimidated by sids and stars because they don't get them frequently, and are often associated with busier airspace, and may seem complicated. If your the sort of pilot who includes that in your flight plan, work with a CFI on your next BFR/IPC to get familiar with them.
Click to expand...
^^^ this,
Back in the dark ages SIDs & STARs were in a separate volume from the Instrument Approach Charts and many pilots didn't bother subscribing to the SIDs/STARs, so putting "no SIDs/STARs" in the remarks section of the flight plan indicated they didn't have the charts aboard. Then as now if a SID or STAR is appropriate you'll still get it in the clearance but since you've indicated you don't have the charts they'll have to read the procedure out to you ......... and you'll have to read it all back.
 
AnnaG said:
What I don't understand is why you wouldn't want a SID or STAR. I can't find anything that explains why.
Click to expand...


I prefer direct. Some if the sids/stars are inconvenient to fly.

Also, I started using no sids/stars in my own IFR flight plans simply because I didn't want to mess with the 430W while in the muck any more than I had to. And, I used to dislike having to find, then brief the charts for my routing while the engine was turning. Lastly, I was so new to the entire ordeal that a lot of the sids and star names were difficult to recognize over the radio, esp at new to me airports. It was all just easier getting vectored.

It wasn't until I started using Foreflight and the ability to look up proposed routes, that I started to become indifferent about flying them or not flying them. Now I file direct and take whatever they give me back.
 
dmspilot said:
If you don't have the required textual description.
Click to expand...
Which requires that you looked for it, tore it out of the book, and threw it away. Or that you print only the plates you want online and decided not to print these. Or you fly without charts.

I think those my be the only ways to not have the required textual description in 2015.
 
Gav1n said:
I prefer direct. Some if the sids/stars are inconvenient to fly.
.
Click to expand...
Well of course we would all prefer to fly the route we want, not some silly route created by ATC for traffic management in busy airspace. That may not always be a choice, however. The difference between no SID and SID may be even more inconvience programming that 430 waypoint by waypoint rather than simply selecting the named departure and a single transition.
 
I don't fly jets or turbo props so I have no use for them.
 
Unit74 said:
I don't fly jets or turbo props so I have no use for them.
Click to expand...

Yes. If you fly into and out of the Dallas area (KADS for example), you will get them every departure and every arrival. You obviously won't have the turbine altitudes and speeds though.
 
Gav1n said:
I prefer direct. Some if the sids/stars are inconvenient to fly.

Also, I started using no sids/stars in my own IFR flight plans simply because I didn't want to mess with the 430W while in the muck any more than I had to. And, I used to dislike having to find, then brief the charts for my routing while the engine was turning. Lastly, I was so new to the entire ordeal that a lot of the sids and star names were difficult to recognize over the radio, esp at new to me airports. It was all just easier getting vectored.

It wasn't until I started using Foreflight and the ability to look up proposed routes, that I started to become indifferent about flying them or not flying them. Now I file direct and take whatever they give me back.
Click to expand...

I see you are from Dallas, what airport?
 
Gav1n said:
I prefer direct. Some if the sids/stars are inconvenient to fly.

Also, I started using no sids/stars in my own IFR flight plans simply because I didn't want to mess with the 430W while in the muck any more than I had to. And, I used to dislike having to find, then brief the charts for my routing while the engine was turning. Lastly, I was so new to the entire ordeal that a lot of the sids and star names were difficult to recognize over the radio, esp at new to me airports. It was all just easier getting vectored.

It wasn't until I started using Foreflight and the ability to look up proposed routes, that I started to become indifferent about flying them or not flying them. Now I file direct and take whatever they give me back.
Click to expand...
I think everyone would prefer direct but you probably won't get it unless you're out in the boonies.
 
Unit74 said:
I don't fly jets or turbo props so I have no use for them.
Click to expand...
That was true 40 years ago when SIDs/STARs were first published and only used at major air carrier terminals, but not so today. Light GA gets them all the time at lots of airports, including going in and out of reliever airports near major air carrier terminals. If you go places like that, either get used to using them or prepare for both writer's cramp when you call for your clearance and the consequences of annoying controllers unnecessarily.
 
I have an Apollo GX50 gps which is enroute and approach certified. However, it is on the list in AC90-100 as a unit that is not approved for SIDS or STARS because the database does not contain the entire procedure by name in the database.

If the SID is a "runway heading, then...." type of SID, I can accept it, but if it is an RNAV based SID (or STAR) the Advisory Circular says I CANNOT accept it.

I use "NO SIDS OR STARS" because of this Advisory Circular, but I'd be happy to change if my interpretation is wrong or if this AC has been changed, cancelled, or amended.

Bueller? Bueller?
 
Thumper said:
I have an Apollo GX50 gps which is enroute and approach certified. However, it is on the list in AC90-100 as a unit that is not approved for SIDS or STARS because the database does not contain the entire procedure by name in the database.

If the SID is a "runway heading, then...." type of SID, I can accept it, but if it is an RNAV based SID (or STAR) the Advisory Circular says I CANNOT accept it.

I use "NO SIDS OR STARS" because of this Advisory Circular, but I'd be happy to change if my interpretation is wrong or if this AC has been changed, cancelled, or amended.
Click to expand...
That is not a reason for putting NO SIDS/STARS in your flight plan, since you can accept any SID/STAR that doesn't have RNAV in the title. All that you'll accomplish is to make the controller read you verbatim the entire non-RNAV SID/STAR they want you to fly, and that's a pain for both you and the controller. If they try to assign an RNAV SID/STAR, just tell them you lack the equipment.
 
Unit74 said:
I don't fly jets or turbo props so I have no use for them.
Click to expand...
There are SIDs and STARs that are designated for those aircraft only and identified as such.

I would love to be able to filter those, as well as those coming from or heading to a different direction than mine, out automatically (app developers?). But, heck, figuring out which ones are applicable takes all of, what 10 extra seconds?, in the course of planning a flight.
 
Thumper said:
I have an Apollo GX50 gps which is enroute and approach certified. However, it is on the list in AC90-100 as a unit that is not approved for SIDS or STARS because the database does not contain the entire procedure by name in the database.

If the SID is a "runway heading, then...." type of SID, I can accept it, but if it is an RNAV based SID (or STAR) the Advisory Circular says I CANNOT accept it.

I use "NO SIDS OR STARS" because of this Advisory Circular, but I'd be happy to change if my interpretation is wrong or if this AC has been changed, cancelled, or amended.

Bueller? Bueller?
Click to expand...

I don't understand how it would make any difference as long as you have all the GPS waypoints. Sure you couldn't just select a SID/STAR, but just like airways you could pull out the chart and manually enter the way points right?
 
Thumper said:
I have an Apollo GX50 gps which is enroute and approach certified. However, it is on the list in AC90-100 as a unit that is not approved for SIDS or STARS because the database does not contain the entire procedure by name in the database.

If the SID is a "runway heading, then...." type of SID, I can accept it, but if it is an RNAV based SID (or STAR) the Advisory Circular says I CANNOT accept it.

I use "NO SIDS OR STARS" because of this Advisory Circular, but I'd be happy to change if my interpretation is wrong or if this AC has been changed, cancelled, or amended.

Bueller? Bueller?
Click to expand...
As Ron said, all the circular says is that you need to have the required equipment to accept a clearance involving an RNAV SID or STAR. Just like you need the required equipment to accept a clearance "for TurboJets only."

No problem for you and KCHS since all of the SIDs and STARs are RNAV. But you don't need a "no SID/STAR" notation in your filed flight plan to avoid a SID or STAR that is not intended for your use. Are you thinking that every other busy airport in the rest of the US us the same?
 
Alexb2000 said:
Yes. If you fly into and out of the Dallas area (KADS for example), you will get them every departure and every arrival. You obviously won't have the turbine altitudes and speeds though.
Click to expand...

I used to fly into LUK fairly often and was always assigned a STAR.
 
Alexb2000 said:
I don't understand how it would make any difference as long as you have all the GPS waypoints. Sure you couldn't just select a SID/STAR, but just like airways you could pull out the chart and manually enter the way points right?
Click to expand...
Read the AC he mentioned -- not all IFR GPS's are approved for RNAV SID/STAR, and the GX60 is not on the approved list for that purpose.
 
Last edited:
A number of people commented on the potential need to copy the SID (or STAR) route longhand. There is an additional issue - intersections on the SID that don't appear on the en route charts. Being told to "proceed direct" to a waypoint that is always used but isn't on the en route chart and isn't in your flight plan can be a fun exercise in CRM.

Happened to a friend of mine who always declined SIDs and STARs some years back. Heading east from the Denver area, he was suddenly told to "proceed EXTAN," a common instruction while on the PLAINS departure.
 
Ron Levy said:
Read the AC he mentioned -- not all IFR GPS's are approved for RNAV SID/STAR, and the GX60 is not on the approved list for that purpose.
Click to expand...

OK. So you say no SID/STAR's, but you are still /G and they feed you all the same waypoints. What's the difference?
 
midlifeflyer said:
A number of people commented on the potential need to copy the SID (or STAR) route longhand. There is an additional issue - intersections on the SID that don't appear on the en route charts. Being told to "proceed direct" to a waypoint that is always used but isn't on the en route chart and isn't in your flight plan can be a fun exercise in CRM.

Happened to a friend of mine who always declined SIDs and STARs some years back. Heading east from the Denver area, he was suddenly told to "proceed EXTAN," a common instruction while on the PLAINS departure.
Click to expand...

Interesting so there are GPS waypoints on a STAR/SID that are NOT in the standard GPS waypoint database? I'd like to hear for some of the experts about that.
 
Alexb2000 said:
Interesting so there are GPS waypoints on a STAR/SID that are NOT in the standard GPS waypoint database? I'd like to hear for some of the experts about that.
Click to expand...

They're in the GPS waypoint database, they're just not depicted on an IFR low or high chart. It's similar to how you won't (generally) find GPS waypoints for instrument approaches on IFR low or high charts, either.
 
Turningfinal said:
They're in the GPS waypoint database, they're just not depicted on an IFR low or high chart. It's similar to how you won't (generally) find GPS waypoints for instrument approaches on IFR low or high charts, either.
Click to expand...

That's what I thought, but it seems from a couple of comments that people are suggesting that isn't the case. I have been broken out of an arrival to go direct to another waypoint that I couldn't find on the chart because it was on a different arrival, but I have never tried to enter one (once I knew the spelling) into my flight plan that wasn't there.:dunno:
 
midlifeflyer said:
No problem for you and KCHS since all of the SIDs and STARs are RNAV. But you don't need a "no SID/STAR" notation in your filed flight plan to avoid a SID or STAR that is not intended for your use. Are you thinking that every other busy airport in the rest of the US us the same?
Click to expand...

So, is the answer to put "NO RNAV SIDS OR STARS" on the flightplan if my departure or destination airports have an RNAV procedure that would be applicable? I am usually not worried about declining a SID when I am sitting on the ramp copying a clearance, but I would think ATC at my destination would appreciate a heads up that I can't accept an RNAV STAR if I know that is all they have available to give me.
 
Thumper said:
So, is the answer to put "NO RNAV SIDS OR STARS" on the flightplan if my departure or destination airports have an RNAV procedure that would be applicable? I am usually not worried about declining a SID when I am sitting on the ramp copying a clearance, but I would think ATC at my destination would appreciate a heads up that I can't accept an RNAV STAR if I know that is all they have available to give me.
Click to expand...

You can put whatever you want in the remarks section. Give it a try.
 
Alexb2000 said:
Interesting so there are GPS waypoints on a STAR/SID that are NOT in the standard GPS waypoint database? I'd like to hear for some of the experts about that.
Click to expand...
No. You misunderstood. They are in the standard GPS waypoint database.

What I said was
isn't on the en route chart and isn't in your flight plan
Click to expand...

You can certain take the steps of searching in vain expecting it to be on he en route chart and then asking ATC how to spell the stupid thing and then punching it in using the Direct To function or adding it to your flight plan in the appropriate space.

Instead of simply having it in there because you accepted the SID and loaded it into your GPS.
 
midlifeflyer said:
No. You misunderstood. They are in the standard GPS waypoint database.

What I said was


You can certain take the steps of searching in vain expecting it to be on he en route chart and then asking ATC how to spell the stupid thing and then punching it in using the Direct To function or adding it to your flight plan in the appropriate space.

Instead of simply having it in there because you accepted the SID and loaded it into your GPS.
Click to expand...

OK, we're all on the same page then.
 
Thumper said:
So, is the answer to put "NO RNAV SIDS OR STARS" on the flightplan if my departure or destination airports have an RNAV procedure that would be applicable? I am usually not worried about declining a SID when I am sitting on the ramp copying a clearance, but I would think ATC at my destination would appreciate a heads up that I can't accept an RNAV STAR if I know that is all they have available to give me.
Click to expand...
Why bother, unless you are also going to put "NO TURBOJET SIDS OR STARS" there also.

They have a heads-up. You didn't file an ICAO flight plan with equipment codes showing you =did= have the equipment capability. Of course, nothing's perfect. ATC has been giving IFR direct to airport clearances to /U aircraft for years.
 
Alexb2000 said:
OK. So you say no SID/STAR's, but you are still /G and they feed you all the same waypoints. What's the difference?
Click to expand...

If they feed you the waypoints for an RNAV SID or STAR, I'd assume :)rolleyes:) they know you're not getting RNAV 1 accuracy from your unit...
 
Last edited:
If they feed you the STAR SID call unable and take the vectors. Would that not be appropriate? Is it lazy, sure. But my understanding is they are made for big iron, not bug smashers and we don't hve the performance envelope for them.
 
Unit74 said:
If they feed you the STAR SID call unable and take the vectors. Would that not be appropriate? Is it lazy, sure. But my understanding is they are made for big iron, not bug smashers and we don't hve the performance envelope for them.
Click to expand...
SIDs & STARs are becoming more common in many places that apply to the "bug smashers" also. For instance I've noticed flying a Cessna 170 thru' Spokane, Washington you'll almost certainly be issued a SID going out and sometimes a STAR going in.
 
I just read up on it. The answer was no, you do not have to accept the SID/STAR. However, if you do, you must comply with all the restrictions as well as possess the graffical proceedure.
 
Unit74 said:
If they feed you the STAR SID call unable and take the vectors. Would that not be appropriate? Is it lazy, sure. But my understanding is they are made for big iron, not bug smashers and we don't hve the performance envelope for them.
Click to expand...
At FRG and a lot of aiports that are close to busy airspace assign SIDs or STARs regardless if you are a C172 or a 737.
 
Alexb2000 said:
OK. So you say no SID/STAR's, but you are still /G and they feed you all the same waypoints. What's the difference?
Click to expand...
RNAV SIDS and STARS must be loaded from the database so they won't feed you the waypoints.

Also, to fly an RNAV SID or STAR, you must load the complete procedure, by name from the database, into the flight plan. You can't load the waypoints manually. And for a SID, make sure you have selected the correct departure runway. The procedures and waypoints are different for each runway.
Click to expand...

http://www.aopa.org/News-and-Video/All-News/2005/January/9/New-RNAV-procedures-for-instrument-pilots
 
Unit74 said:
I just read up on it. The answer was no, you do not have to accept the SID/STAR. However, if you do, you must comply with all the restrictions as well as possess the graffical proceedure.
Click to expand...
Well, all clearances are negotiable but don't assume you'll get an easier departure/arrival by not accepting the SID/STAR. What you'll likely get will be the pertinent information from the procedure read out to you and you'll be required to read it back to assure ATC that you understand it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top