No SIDs/STARs

peerlesscowboy said:
Well, all clearances are negotiable but don't assume you'll get an easier departure/arrival by not accepting the SID/STAR. What you'll likely get will be the pertinent information from the procedure read out to you and you'll be required to read it back to assure ATC that you understand it.
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...or possibly "hold your position...expect takeoff clearance in 4 hours.":yikes:
 
Yea right.... Give me one legit example of them purposely trying to punish someone for not taking a proceedure and I'll point them right to a congressional inquiry. They work for the .gov, they don't have the right to purposely dish out ramp justice for not taking a SID.
 
peerlesscowboy said:
Well, all clearances are negotiable but don't assume you'll get an easier departure/arrival by not accepting the SID/STAR. What you'll likely get will be the pertinent information from the procedure read out to you and you'll be required to read it back to assure ATC that you understand it.
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Easy......"unable at this time"
 
Alexb2000 said:
Thanks, that answers that.

I do have them move me to a different arrival sometimes by waypoint without assigning a new arrival specifically, but I guess that is just poor communication.
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When the new RNAV arrivals were published in Denver we were often asked if we could do them (we can). Now they don't ask so much any more. A few of the previous airplanes I flew had antique GPSs so they could not do RNAV procedures. If we were assigned one we would simply tell them that we were unable so they would assign something else. I think they realize that this is the case with some avionics setups.
 
Unit74 said:
Yea right.... Give me one legit example of them purposely trying to punish someone for not taking a proceedure and I'll point them right to a congressional inquiry. They work for the .gov, they don't have the right to purposely dish out ramp justice for not taking a SID.
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As a newly minted instrument pilot years back, I politely told the clearance delivery controller that I was unable to fly a SID that I was assigned coming out of KFCM.

My training never included them and I had never flown one so I was hesitant to accept it. The controller had no issue with that...but I made sure to read up on them when I got home!
 
Oh for sure. That's what I would do too. It's one of those WTf moments and to be honest, first time I looked at one to file I was like, OH Sh..... I can really F this up bad if I'm not carefull. Single pilot IFR into a STar SID is a great way to look like a dumb ass and **** off lots of controllers and big iron lily era who have to deviate because of you. I hate the procedures, not to mention it takes my little bug smasher way out of the way of where I want to be most of the time.
 
Unit74 said:
Yea right.... Give me one legit example of them purposely trying to punish someone for not taking a proceedure and I'll point them right to a congressional inquiry. They work for the .gov, they don't have the right to purposely dish out ramp justice for not taking a SID.
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It's not a "punishment". SIDS and STARS are there to expedite traffic flow. If you can't participate in expedited flow, you'll likely be deferred until things slow down and they can fit you in. They might even say...

Unit74 said:
Easy......"unable at this time"
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Turningfinal said:
As a newly minted instrument pilot years back, I politely told the clearance delivery controller that I was unable to fly a SID that I was assigned coming out of KFCM.

My training never included them and I had never flown one so I was hesitant to accept it. The controller had no issue with that...but I made sure to read up on them when I got home!
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I was lucky to train at an airport where at SID is issued every time so I am very familar with them. Granted the SID is very simple. Climb heading XXX or climbing left or right turn heading XXX. Maintain 3000 via vectors to assigned fix
 
Unit74 said:
Yea right.... Give me one legit example of them purposely trying to punish someone for not taking a proceedure and I'll point them right to a congressional inquiry. They work for the .gov, they don't have the right to purposely dish out ramp justice for not taking a SID.
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If you can't stay in step you can't be in the parade. You have to wait until the parade is over.
 
Unit74 said:
Yea right.... Give me one legit example of them purposely trying to punish someone for not taking a proceedure and I'll point them right to a congressional inquiry. They work for the .gov, they don't have the right to purposely dish out ramp justice for not taking a SID.
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ATC is punisher is a bit mythical. But there can be a substantial delay. After all, the SID or STAR is for traffic management in an environment (Interments Flight Rules) in which fitting into the system is a major consideration. If 98% of the flights are fitting in to the of traffic and one gut insists he wants something different, it might just take a little time to find a place to fit him in.

My new slogan: IFR. It's not about you.
If they feed you the STAR SID call unable and take the vectors. Would that not be appropriate? Is it lazy, sure. But my understanding is they are made for big iron, not bug smashers and we don't hve the performance envelope for them.
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The problem is, your understanding is wrong. On two counts.

First, SIDs and STARs are made for traffic management, not "for big iron." yes, there are definitely some that are made for "big iron" and *surprise* they say so, right on the chart! No, you won't be assigned them. C'mon! Think about it: 20 big iron airplanes coming in and having to slow down to avoid breaking the Part 91 speed limits. How would it benefit traffic management to have a 100 kt Bugsmasher among them? But there are definitely SIDs and STARs that can easily be handled by Bugsmashers. those get assigned to save everyone time.

Second, can you find something that says ATC must take the time to give you vectors when you have perfectly good navigation equipment on board? Don't like a SID? Well they might give you the same routing, waypoint by waypoint. Decline that one (it's certainly your prerogative) and they can issue one that keeps you out of the way of everyone else.
 
Unit74 said:
I don't fly jets or turbo props so I have no use for them.
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When flying to several GA airports from northwest of the SF Bay area, they routinely assign the Point Reyes One arrival to light piston aircraft. I don't like it, because for the altitudes they typically assign, it takes me beyond gliding distance from land. I usually start whining for a higher altitude or a routing closer to land when they do that.

http://download.aopa.org/ustprocs/current/SW-2/point_reyes_one_star.pdf
 
midlifeflyer said:
............... Don't like a SID? Well they might give you the same routing, waypoint by waypoint. Decline that one (it's certainly your prerogative) and they can issue one that keeps you out of the way of everyone else.
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Yeah, I think most airports have a seldom used little place out of everyone's way where they can park you while you ponder the situation.
 
peerlesscowboy said:
Yeah, I think most airports have a seldom used little place out of everyone's way where they can park you while you ponder the situation.
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I know you were joking, but most of the time leaving KVGT (North Las Vegas) you will either fly the Northtown DP or you won't fly IFR, your choice. They have plenty of room for you to park on the 110 degree ramp and think about it also.:)
 
A lot of times I'll file a DP and end up with the same routing but beginning with radar vectors, then routing as individual waypoints or airways. Same altitude.

Sometimes they clear me with the DP & transition.

It's a mystery to me what prompts one vs the other since all the DPs start with radar vectors anyway. But I haven't delved into it that much.

My guess is that it's related to the lost comm procedure common to most of the DPs (at least the ones we bugsmashers use) around Denver that has us cross the Denver VOR if filed altitude is above 10k. In the event of lost comm I'd end up climbing with all Cessna slowness right through their bidness. :)
 
Alexb2000 said:
OK. So you say no SID/STAR's, but you are still /G and they feed you all the same waypoints. What's the difference?
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If they give you a clearance with some waypoints, you've been given a specific clearance, not a SID/STAR, so the AC 90-100A prohibition isn't relevant. But if you tell them you cannot accept that RNAV SID/STAR because you lack the equipment, they're going to have to give you some routing other than the SID/STAR.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
You can put whatever you want in the remarks section. Give it a try.
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Putting "NO SID/STAR" in the Remarks is not the same as telling them your GPS is not approved for RNAV SID/STAR. If it's not so approved, you can still accept a non-RNAV SID/STAR.
 
Unit74 said:
If they feed you the STAR SID call unable and take the vectors.
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You're not going to get vectors, you're going to get the entire SID/STAR read to you verbatim, and that's a real pain for both you and the controller.

But my understanding is they are made for big iron, not bug smashers and we don't hve the performance envelope for them.
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Your understanding is not correct. Yes, some SID/START procedures say "turbojet aircraft only" or "only for aircraft 250KIAS or greater" or the like, but most apply equally to both light singles and B777's.
 
Unit74 said:
I just read up on it. The answer was no, you do not have to accept the SID/STAR. However, if you do, you must comply with all the restrictions as well as possess the graffical proceedure.
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As stated above, while you can refuse to accept a SID/STAR, the result will be they have to read you the whole thing verbatim, and that isn't going to either be fun for you or make the controller very happy. Simply declining a SID/STAR just isn't going to get you a short-cut.
 
Unit74 said:
Yea right.... Give me one legit example of them purposely trying to punish someone for not taking a proceedure and I'll point them right to a congressional inquiry. They work for the .gov, they don't have the right to purposely dish out ramp justice for not taking a SID.
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Good luck. What they'll say is "we are too busy with other traffic to read you the whole clearance right now, so you'll have to wait until we have the time." And yes, they can and will do that, and no, Congress isn't going to intervene on your behalf if it happens.
 
Alexb2000 said:
I know you were joking, but most of the time leaving KVGT (North Las Vegas) you will either fly the Northtown DP or you won't fly IFR, your choice. They have plenty of room for you to park on the 110 degree ramp and think about it also.:)
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I wasn't joking, and I was thinking about KVGT (North Las Vegas) specifically. And FWIW I didn't refuse the Northtown Departure, I just told ground that I'd like a couple minutes to study the chart when he asked me if I was ready to taxi. So when I called "ready to taxi" a couple of minutes later he cleared me to taxi to a little pad way over in the corner (penalty box?) and left me there for half an hour :redface:
 
Unit74 said:
Single pilot IFR into a STar SID is a great way to look like a dumb ass and **** off lots of controllers and big iron lily era who have to deviate because of you.
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I don't follow your logic. How do you figure that flying the SID/STAR single-pilot is going to make you look bad? It's not at all hard to do all by yourself -- I teach folks how to do it all the time.
 
Ron Levy said:
If they give you a clearance with some waypoints, you've been given a specific clearance, not a SID/STAR, so the AC 90-100A prohibition isn't relevant. But if you tell them you cannot accept that RNAV SID/STAR because you lack the equipment, they're going to have to give you some routing other than the SID/STAR.
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I gave the KVGT example above, I guess they'd have to give you alternate instructions eventually, but I bet you could run out of gas waiting for a clearance.:)
 
midlifeflyer said:
Well of course we would all prefer to fly the route we want, not some silly route created by ATC for traffic management in busy airspace. That may not always be a choice, however. The difference between no SID and SID may be even more inconvience programming that 430 waypoint by waypoint rather than simply selecting the named departure and a single transition.
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Yup. That is why I wrote what I did. Please read the rest of the my post.
 
Ron Levy said:
I don't follow your logic. How do you figure that flying the SID/STAR single-pilot is going to make you look bad? It's not at all hard to do all by yourself -- I teach folks how to do it all the time.
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No it's not, but it IS a fair amount of extra work vs just flying radar vectors, especially if you're /U or /A. With a good modern GPS, it's not a big deal except for the extra time it usually adds to your flight, assuming you can meet the required climb gradient, if there is one. Still, I was a bit nervous about it the first (and to date) only time I accepted one leaving DXR. So I can sympathize somewhat with what he's saying.

Actually, it was the Burlington 6 departure that made me the most nervous - because there aren't any waypoints, it's all radar vectors in an area with high terrain nearby, and I was basically trusting the controller not to vector me into a mountain. Plus, the IAF on the approach I wanted into MPV had recently been changed and the controller at first wanted to clear me to a fix that was way out of my way, and in an area where I was a little concerned about precip. Luckily things were slow and the controller was great and worked with me. Good experience.
 
azure said:
No it's not, but it IS a fair amount of extra work vs just flying radar vectors, especially if you're /U or /A. With a good modern GPS, it's not a big deal except for the extra time it usually adds to your flight, assuming you can meet the required climb gradient, if there is one. Still, I was a bit nervous about it the first (and to date) only time I accepted one leaving DXR. So I can sympathize somewhat with what he's saying.

Actually, it was the Burlington 6 departure that made me the most nervous - because there aren't any waypoints, it's all radar vectors in an area with high terrain nearby, and I was basically trusting the controller not to vector me into a mountain. Plus, the IAF on the approach I wanted into MPV had recently been changed and the controller at first wanted to clear me to a fix that was way out of my way, and in an area where I was a little concerned about precip. Luckily things were slow and the controller was great and worked with me. Good experience.
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It's also important to look at SIDs/STARs for your airports. Of course it's going to be difficult if a person is looking at the SID/STAR for the first time while it's being issued. However, if you do the appropriate planning and look over applicable STARs/SIDs it makes it easier because you've already briefed the departure or arrival and have a general idea what to do and what to plan for. CFIs that don't teach students how to fly SIDs or STARs just because the home drone doesn't issue them are doing a huge disservice to students once they fly to other parts of the country.
 
peerlesscowboy said:
I wasn't joking, and I was thinking about KVGT (North Las Vegas) specifically. And FWIW I didn't refuse the Northtown Departure, I just told ground that I'd like a couple minutes to study the chart when he asked me if I was ready to taxi. So when I called "ready to taxi" a couple of minutes later he cleared me to taxi to a little pad way over in the corner (penalty box?) and left me there for half an hour :redface:
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Man I'm sorry to hear that. For a few years there were an insane number of busts on the Northtown departure. It doesn't seem hard, unless you didn't study the DP. I hadn't the first time I tried to leave there, so I spent my time in the penalty box also.
 
Alexb2000 said:
Man I'm sorry to hear that. For a few years there were an insane number of busts on the Northtown departure. It doesn't seem hard, unless you didn't study the DP. I hadn't the first time I tried to leave there, so I spent my time in the penalty box also.
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Yeah, as I recall it wasn't that complicated but I wanted to assure myself that I understood the DP before I launched. It wasn't like I was blocking traffic, I was still parked on the ramp. No wonder they have so many busts if they expect pilots to just blast off and then read the DP on the fly? Maybe the locals know to study the chart before they call ground but a transient doesn't know what to expect until he gets the clearance.
 
azure said:
No it's not, but it IS a fair amount of extra work vs just flying radar vectors, especially if you're /U or /A.
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Can't argue with that, but just saying "NO SID/STAR" on the flight plan isn't going to get you those radar vectors.
 
jordane93 said:
It's also important to look at SIDs/STARs for your airports. Of course it's going to be difficult if a person is looking at the SID/STAR for the first time while it's being issued. However, if you do the appropriate planning and look over applicable STARs/SIDs it makes it easier because you've already briefed the departure or arrival and have a general idea what to do and what to plan for. CFIs that don't teach students how to fly SIDs or STARs just because the home drone doesn't issue them are doing a huge disservice to students once they fly to other parts of the country.
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When I was an instrument student there just weren't any SIDS or STARS in the area we'd be able to try out. Most of them at the time were non-RNAV and built specifically for turbojet aircraft going into or out of large hub airports. And it wasn't all that long ago, either.
 
Ron Levy said:
Putting "NO SID/STAR" in the Remarks is not the same as telling them your GPS is not approved for RNAV SID/STAR. If it's not so approved, you can still accept a non-RNAV SID/STAR.
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I didn't say try "NO SID/STAR"...I said try "NO RNAV SID/STAR"
 
Ron Levy said:
You're not going to get vectors, you're going to get the entire SID/STAR read to you verbatim, and that's a real pain for both you and the controller.

Your understanding is not correct. Yes, some SID/START procedures say "turbojet aircraft only" or "only for aircraft 250KIAS or greater" or the like, but most apply equally to both light singles and B777's.
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In order to fly the proceedure legally, you have to have the procedure on board, I.e., the. chart. If you call unable, I don't think they can legally give it to you that way. They can try, but that's transparent.
 
Unit74 said:
In order to fly the proceedure legally, you have to have the procedure on board, I.e., the. chart. If you call unable, I don't think they can legally give it to you that way. They can try, but that's transparent.
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In order to legally accept it as simply the "ABCDF Departure" you have to have the chart on board. Ron's right, if you refuse to accept it that way they'll have to read out the applicable parts of the procedure to you and you'll have to copy it and read it all back, the procedure you're required to fly won't change.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
I didn't say try "NO SID/STAR"...I said try "NO RNAV SID/STAR"
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Actually, you said "You can put whatever you want in the remarks section. Give it a try." But I do like the "NO RNAV SID/STAR" suggestion for those with a non-90-100A-compliant IFR GPS.
 
Unit74 said:
In order to fly the proceedure legally, you have to have the procedure on board, I.e., the. chart. If you call unable, I don't think they can legally give it to you that way. They can try, but that's transparent.
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They certainly can, and it's completely legit, because when they read you the clearance, you read it back correctly, so that means at that point you do have it on board, albeit in handwritten rather than printed form. And the rule says only that you must have the text -- which after copying the clearance, you do.
 
Ron Levy said:
Actually, you said "You can put whatever you want in the remarks section. Give it a try." But I do like the "NO RNAV SID/STAR" suggestion for those with a non-90-100A-compliant IFR GPS.
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Because you can put whatever you want in the remarks. Thumper asked if he should put "NO RNAV SID/STAR". To which I said, "give it a try"
 
Gucci Pilot said:
Because you can put whatever you want in the remarks. Thumper asked if he should put "NO RNAV SID/STAR". To which I said, "give it a try"
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OK -- didn't see Thumper's post, and yours didn't quote or reference it, so it was hard to understand the context.
 
Ron Levy said:
I don't follow your logic. How do you figure that flying the SID/STAR single-pilot is going to make you look bad? It's not at all hard to do all by yourself -- I teach folks how to do it all the time.
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His logic is sound. It's his underlying premise that all SIDs and STARs are only for the "big iron" that's faulty.

Premise #1: All SIDs and STARs are for fast big iron.
Premise #2: A 172 will fly it at 100 kts.
Conclusion: Therefore, a 172 flying a SID or STAR will cause problems.

Perfect logical. All of his conclusions are logically and consistently to that premise. No need to challenge them one by one in separate posts.
 
An aside.

A few years ago, when I was still living in Colorado, I was planning to rent an airplane during a vacation in Florida. The last leg of my Florida flights was KBCT to KORL. Looking at the charts, the GOOFY.BAIRN STAR into the Orlando area looked reasonable (Unit74 - any problem you see with that 2700 msl altitude? I'm betting not too many turbojets to run you over :D).

So I filed it.

I didn't get cleared for the STAR but, lo and behold, that was indeed the exact routing since it was (a) the route most commonly used (duh!) and the (b) most reasonable route to take. So even if not assigned it, SIDs and STARs can be a clue to common routings in an area.
 
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