New AC-130 Ghostrider A Total Loss After Departing Controlled Flight

I'd imagine in the Vari you had a pretty good aft CG to get it to spin? I've kicked full pedal back and forth with full aft stick in canard stall and couldn't get mine to spin. Only way I think I could is if I pitched near vertical to stall the main wing and kick pedal simultaneously.
I've spun and/or departed a lot of different airplanes but spins in an EZ-like canard are not high on my list of things to do. :eek:

Nauga,
cross-controlled over the top
 
How about some props to the pilots for recovering? Must have been quite a wild ride there for a bit.
 
Would like to read the report,so when I buy my C 130 I'll know what not to do.
 
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Thanks for the article. Interesting read.
Sounds like the technical term is "rudder float." What ever it is, seems like if you apply full rudder in some flight modes, she'll depart.
Given that it was flight test it's hard to predict what they were doing and what the inputs should have been but the article indicates that you've got to ignore some fairly unambiguous cues to get to the point where it lets go. I also don't know what (if any) changes have been made in the last 20 years up to the AC-130J that might affect those characteristics.

Much as I might have suspicions I'm not going to reach a conclusion (or post it here if I did) here without knowledge of what's in the final report.

Nauga,
and his dogeared 1797B
 
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I understand, but for the service it is intended for, it seems low.
I haven't seen the actual report, but from someone who has, apparently the 3.19g is the design limit that was exceeded. The accident airplane apparently reached over 7gs, so that may explain it better.
 
Thanks for the article. Interesting read.
Given that it was flight test it's hard to predict what they were doing and what the inputs should have been but the article indicates that you've got to ignore some fairly unambiguous cues to get to the point where it lets go. I also don't know what (if any) changes have been made in the last 20 years up to the AC-130J that might affect those characteristics.

Much as I might have suspicions I'm not going to reach a conclusion (or post it here if I did) here without knowledge of what's in the final report.

Nauga,
and his dogeared 1797B

Yeah too early to tell. I just thought the large rudder input, power applied and flaps down in the incident kinda went well with the "rudder force reversal" scenario. As you said though, the PIC would have had to ignore some serious tail buffeting to let it get that far. We shall see.
 
I haven't seen the actual report, but from someone who has, apparently the 3.19g is the design limit that was exceeded. The accident airplane apparently reached over 7gs, so that may explain it better.

That sounds about right
 
I haven't seen the actual report, but from someone who has, apparently the 3.19g is the design limit that was exceeded. The accident airplane apparently reached over 7gs, so that may explain it better.
I'm having a little trouble resolving 7g, 100kt overspeed, and 5000 ft altitude loss. ;) There's a whole lot more to the picture than any of us have at the moment.

Nauga,
and his doghouse
 
A misdiagnosed fin stall killed a 130 back in the 1980's; first half of the decade, as I recall. There was a cluster eff on the flight deck, someone said "fin stall" (though it apparently wasn't) and if memory serves, they mushed into the drop zone.

I have a little stick time in a 130, though I wasn't a rated USAF pilot; it handles a lot like a 182, actually. it has a very benign approach to stall (power way back, of course) - very pronounced aerodynamic buffet to warn you.

Lightly loaded, with a lot of power in, I'm not sure you'd get a real stall - more like a weird helicopter effect? I wouldn't want to find out in person. The airplane's gross weight range is enormous; if I recall our "E" models typically weighed about 78-80K pounds, and MGTOW was up around 175K in war time. We did muck about at less 120K pounds routinely, and I remember coming down final at less than 100 knots on occasion.

The airplane looks bigger than it is - look at one head-on, vs from the profile view; and again, lightly loaded, it has stupendous performance - climb and acceleration.

With a lot of power in, maybe not too heavy, I could see it departing violently. .
 
A misdiagnosed fin stall killed a 130 back in the 1980's; first half of the decade, as I recall. There was a cluster eff on the flight deck, someone said "fin stall" (though it apparently wasn't) and if memory serves, they mushed into the drop zone.

I have a little stick time in a 130, though I wasn't a rated USAF pilot; it handles a lot like a 182, actually. it has a very benign approach to stall (power way back, of course) - very pronounced aerodynamic buffet to warn you.

Lightly loaded, with a lot of power in, I'm not sure you'd get a real stall - more like a weird helicopter effect? I wouldn't want to find out in person. The airplane's gross weight range is enormous; if I recall our "E" models typically weighed about 78-80K pounds, and MGTOW was up around 175K in war time. We did muck about at less 120K pounds routinely, and I remember coming down final at less than 100 knots on occasion.

The airplane looks bigger than it is - look at one head-on, vs from the profile view; and again, lightly loaded, it has stupendous performance - climb and acceleration.

With a lot of power in, maybe not too heavy, I could see it departing violently. .

The "J" is a different animal. Lockheed had real difficulties getting its stall and post stall behavior tamed to the satisfaction of customers. That delayed the program for a couple of years.

Interestingly, one of the guys (E.S. "Scotty" Barland)who wrote the "Fin Stall" article is the CFI who has done two of my last three BFR's. Also, the guy who wrote the lead column in that newsletter is hangared about 50' from me. He's a retiree, and has turned being an airport bum into a profitable Light Sport instructing business.

Small world.
 
The "J" is a different animal. Lockheed had real difficulties getting its stall and post stall behavior tamed to the satisfaction of customers. That delayed the program for a couple of years.
Not unrelated but since stalls keep coming up I'll point out that the public sources say this was a departure out of a steady-heading sideslip for a flying qualities test. That type of test typically isn't done close to balanced-flight stall AOA, although stranger things have happened. Departure boundaries are usually defined by a combination of AOA, sideslip, and rates, not just what many people thing of as 'stall AOA'. Again, we don't know what we don't know and won't know it until more is known.

Nauga,
now with hourly departures
 
Did the airfoil change on the "J", or was it the new engine/prop combination that caused the trouble?
 
Engine/prop. They upped the power by almost 50%.
It's not likely that an increase in power *available* induced a departure out of a level flight SHSS - if the departure happened as has been reported here. More likely that aerodynamic and mass properties changes as a result of that power increase or other J changes had an adverse effect that required the subject testing. The actual cause of the departure may be more complex or even simpler than that, however.

Nauga,
with no net acceleration
 
It's not likely that an increase in power *available* induced a departure out of a level flight SHSS - if the departure happened as has been reported here. More likely that aerodynamic and mass properties changes as a result of that power increase or other J changes had an adverse effect that required the subject testing. The actual cause of the departure may be more complex or even simpler than that, however.

Nauga,
with no net acceleration

This article tells a tale of airflow/stall issues driven by the 6 blade props which replaced the 4 blade props from previous C-130 models.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...ms-to-solvec-130j-hercules-stall-problem-804/
 
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"As a result of the incident, "the mishap aircraft exceeded its design limit load to an extent that rendered it unsafe for flight and is considered a total loss to the Air Force," ...


So, I wonder if the flight suits were reusable! :yikes:
 
I'm sure this was no traditional upright spin, it was an unintentional spin. If you enter one from an accelerated stall while uncoordinated, as opposed to waiting for your airspeed to decay and then steadily pulling back on the elevator, the entry is more abrupt. It basically rolls you on your back, then the nose goes down and it gets to spinning if you continue to hold the pro-spin controls. This is my experience from a cub anyway.

While its probably right to assume the 3.19 G was from the recovery and positive G, it seems unlikely that 3.19 would stress it to the point of unusable?

That's the reason that was published, strikes me odd as well.:dunno: 100kt overspeed with the flaps down may be the diving factor in that is all I can think.
 
It's not likely that an increase in power *available* induced a departure out of a level flight SHSS - if the departure happened as has been reported here. More likely that aerodynamic and mass properties changes as a result of that power increase or other J changes had an adverse effect that required the subject testing. The actual cause of the departure may be more complex or even simpler than that, however.

Nauga,
with no net acceleration

This article tells a tale of airflow/stall issues driven by the 6 blade props which replaced the 4 blade props from previous C-130 models.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...ms-to-solvec-130j-hercules-stall-problem-804/
That would fall under "aerodynamic changes"; however, the article reads as though it's primarily a high AOA (where high is relative to the C-130) issue and resulted in the addition of a stick shaker, etc. In that, given enough control power (i.e. rudder authority), one can depart *any* airplane at *any* AOA when combined with large sideslip angles, what confidence do we have that they were anywhere near stall or any regime where airflow characteristics were significantly adverse? If the maneuver was as described (i.e. level flight steady-heading sideslip), the uprated engines were putting out the exact same thrust the derated engines would put out under the same conditions. Do we know the flight conditions (AOA, sideslip, and speed) and do we know that the new props significantly affect handing at those conditions? No.

My point is *not* that this was not the cause - it may very well be, but I can (but will not) name several other scenarios that are equally likely given what we know about the test. My point is that none of us here have access to information sufficient to reach any conclusion as to the cause.

Nauga,
who learned the hard way
 
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That would fall under "aerodynamic changes"; however, the article reads as though it's primarily a high AOA (where high is relative to the C-130) issue and resulted in the addition of a stick shaker, etc. In that, given enough control power (i.e. rudder authority), one can depart *any* airplane at *any* AOA when combined with large sideslip angles, what confidence do we have that they were anywhere near stall or any regime where airflow characteristics were significantly adverse? If the maneuver was as described (i.e. level flight steady-heading sideslip), the uprated engines were putting out the exact same thrust the derated engines would put out under the same conditions. Do we know the flight conditions (AOA, sideslip, and speed) and do we know that the new props significantly affect handing at those conditions? No.

My point is *not* that this was not the cause - it may very well be, but I can (but will not) name several other scenarios that are equally likely given what we know about the test. My point is that none of us here have access to information sufficient to reach any conclusion as to the cause.

Nauga,
who learned the hard way

Don't you know by now that this is the POA, Prognosticators of America.
 
My point is *not* that this was not the cause - it may very well be, but I can (but will not) name several other scenarios that are equally likely given what we know about the test. My point is that none of us here have access to information sufficient to reach any conclusion as to the cause.

Nauga,
who learned the hard way

I don't think anyone is suggesting a cause. I thought the last 10 or so posts were just a follow-up on Sundancer's post (and experience) with previous versions of the 130, which were relatively benign in certain circumstances compared to the J.
 
I don't think anyone is suggesting a cause. I thought the last 10 or so posts were just a follow-up on Sundancer's post (and experience) with previous versions of the 130, which were relatively benign in certain circumstances compared to the J.
You must have interpreted his question and intended your response in a much different way than I took them.

Did the airfoil change on the "J", or was it the new engine/prop combination that caused the trouble?
Engine/prop. They upped the power by almost 50%.
[emphasis added]

You probably know me well enough to know why I couldn't take a pass on that one...;)

Given the information that's been linked here I see nothing to indicate that the same type of departure isn't possible in a pre-J model either. Rudder float and rudder lock are indicators of things to come - here there be dragons.

Given the publicity that this has gotten I would not be surprised to see the report, or portions of it, made public. That will clear up a lot for those of us that take the time to read it (with no preconceptions :rolleyes:)

Nauga,
and the R&I board
 
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You must have interpreted his question and intended your response in a much different way than I took them.

<snip>

Nauga,
and the R&I board

That never happens on message boards.
 
Was the slip for an aiming technique or what? :dunno:
What. If it was as described in the articles linked here and elsewhere it's a stability and control/handling qualities flight test technique for evaluating directional control power, directional stability, and dihedral effect. Sounds like they found a boundary.

Nauga,
wing down, top rudder
 
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