Need help with a couple of terms

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C_Parker

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Hey guys, flying VFR, if ATC says "resume own navigation" does that include altitude and heading or just heading? I understand with IFR this means just heading/flight plan.

The reason is I've heard it used after vectors both inbound and outbound. So, for instance, if you are vectored and then resume own navigation after ATC has assigned you a runway, do you then navigate to the pattern?

On outbound, you would be released to fly you own heading, but at the assigned altitude until radar services are terminated? Again, VFR.

Also, a ground controller used a term I hadn't heard before, he said "taxi A3, A, at your discretion." When he said, "at your discretion" does he mean WHEN I want, or TO where I want? Does that basically clear me to taxi to any "exit" from A?

Thanks!
 
I have used "Own navigation to [name of fix]" when requesting an instrument approach in order to avoid flying over water in order to get to an IAF. By requesting "own navigation," I am letting the controller know that I will figure out my own routing to a portion of the approach and fly the remainder per the procedure. This works for enroute, too. In VFR conditions, I can get out of everyone's way in a busy area by avoiding chokepoints along the way. You need to be very familiar with the local area and it helps if the controllers recognize your voice or tail number. It has saved me many hours of vectoring during instrument training sessions.

"Your discretion" is basically a relaxed clearance with regard to timing. As long as you get to the assigned point, when you get there is up to you. In the air, "pilot discretion," or "PD," is often used for allowing you to choose when you want to descend from (or climb to?) an assigned altitude to the next point in your route... That usually accounts for the differing performance capabilities of various aircraft. Some need more space to descend because they are going faster and some need a shallower descent to avoid high descent rates...

I'm sure there are controllers here who can give you the technically correct answers, but this has been my experience. ;)
 
If ATC issued an altitude restriction, why would VFR be any different from IFR?
 
C_Parker said:
Hey guys, flying VFR, if ATC says "resume own navigation" does that include altitude and heading or just heading? I understand with IFR this means just heading/flight plan.

The reason is I've heard it used after vectors both inbound and outbound. So, for instance, if you are vectored and then resume own navigation after ATC has assigned you a runway, do you then navigate to the pattern?

On outbound, you would be released to fly you own heading, but at the assigned altitude until radar services are terminated? Again, VFR.

Also, a ground controller used a term I hadn't heard before, he said "taxi A3, A, at your discretion." When he said, "at your discretion" does he mean WHEN I want, or TO where I want? Does that basically clear me to taxi to any "exit" from A?

Thanks!
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Resume Own Navigation applies to horizontal navigation, not vertical. I’ve never heard of the taxiway thing applying to time. It could be the taxi route has areas of non-visibility from the Tower. Is A3, A something you made up as an example to ask the question? Or is it something that actually happened to you? If so, what Airport?
 
For example you are on a vector from flight following to get you out of the way of something, when clear they say “resume own navigation”.. in other words, fly to whatever you want.

About the altitude restriction, I experienced last week atc said “resume own navigation, altitude is yours”.

I only experienced the “own descretion” in Europa on startup clearences and for example if someone asked something from a non-atc station (flight info service)
 
luvflyin said:
Resume Own Navigation applies to horizontal navigation, not vertical. I’ve never heard of the taxiway thing applying to time. It could be the taxi route has areas of non-visibility from the Tower. Is A3, A something you made up as an example to ask the question? Or is it something that actually happened to you? If so, what Airport?
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This was at the KIDA airport and did happen to me, was a few weeks back. I was about to turn off the runway onto A3 and A was the main taxiway to the ramp. The tower has full visibility. I assumed it meant turn off of A wherever you want... but in hindsight I shouldn't have made that assumption. My local D airport, KTWF, always just says "taxi A3, A, to parking," there are two ramps at either end of the airport so basically they're saying go wherever.
 
C_Parker said:
This was at the KIDA airport and did happen to me, was a few weeks back. I was about to turn off the runway onto A3 and A was the main taxiway to the ramp. The tower has full visibility. I assumed it meant turn off of A wherever you want... but in hindsight I shouldn't have made that assumption. My local D airport, KTWF, always just says "taxi A3, A, to parking," there are two ramps at either end of the airport so basically they're saying go wherever.
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Ah! It probably meant, "Speed permitting."
 
dtuuri said:
Ah! It probably meant, "Speed permitting."
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Hmmm.... that does make sense. Seems vague though, especially since it's not the glossary. Funny how every tower and even every controller has a different style. For a relatively new pilot this can be a bit nerve racking!
 
C_Parker said:
Hmmm.... that does make sense. Seems vague though, especially since it's not the glossary. Funny how every tower and even every controller has a different style. For a relatively new pilot this can be a bit nerve racking!
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And any one controller depending on their mood at the time.:D
 
There is a ton of misinformation about this, however the answer is in your bible.

FAR/AIM 733 03/29/18
RESUME OWN NAVIGATION- Used by ATC to advise a pilot to resume his/her own navigational responsibility. It is issued after completion of a radar vector or when radar contact is lost while the aircraft is being radar vectored.

IMO, there is no use for this phrase in the IFR environment as you are already on an assigned altitude, and you're going to fly pretty much direct to your next destination. There are other phrases that better fit any IFR clearance or deviation.

This is really intended for VFR traffic temporarily in an IFR environment. For example, leaving controlled airspace, or loss of radar contact during flight following.

A while back there was an FAA Hottopic about this specific issue and the question was asked to 4 FAA inspectors what the phrase meant. All 4 unanimously stated that "Resume Own Navigation" allowed the pilot to determine their own appropriate VFR altitude.

Personally, I can say, in my 40+ years of flying, when I am flying VFR and hear that phrase, I go wherever I want at whatever alt I want, and I've never heard a peep from anyone. I can't recall ever hearing that phrase when flying IFR. If I did I think I'd be confused and I would have to question the controller about it.
 
Clip4 said:
If ATC issued an altitude restriction, why would VFR be any different from IFR?
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Cant say I know the exact regs around it, but I havs flown VFR into busy class B and they really treat VFR traffic the same and still give altitude restrictions.
 
VFR flight navigation is at the direction of the PIC unless you're in controlled airspace talking to ATC. Resume own navigation means you are free to fly any course or altitude you desire. In VFR flight, you should hear this when leaving controlled airspace and ATC is turning you loose or when you're receiving traffic advisories and ATC had vectored you around something.

If you're inside of controlled airspace, this usually means you're the only one around.
 
As the posted PCG entry says, it ends "vectoring." It has nothing, IFR or VFR to do with altitude. If you're IFR, you're likely cleared for a specific altitude already and this doesn't change that.
If your VFR, except in certain very controlled cases (like inside a class B), you won't be on an assigned altitude so you weren't restricted before you got the RESUME OWN NAVIGATION anyhow.
 
SToL said:
There is a ton of misinformation about this, however the answer is in your bible.

FAR/AIM 733 03/29/18
RESUME OWN NAVIGATION- Used by ATC to advise a pilot to resume his/her own navigational responsibility. It is issued after completion of a radar vector or when radar contact is lost while the aircraft is being radar vectored.

IMO, there is no use for this phrase in the IFR environment as you are already on an assigned altitude, and you're going to fly pretty much direct to your next destination. There are other phrases that better fit any IFR clearance or deviation.

This is really intended for VFR traffic temporarily in an IFR environment. For example, leaving controlled airspace, or loss of radar contact during flight following.

A while back there was an FAA Hottopic about this specific issue and the question was asked to 4 FAA inspectors what the phrase meant. All 4 unanimously stated that "Resume Own Navigation" allowed the pilot to determine their own appropriate VFR altitude.

Personally, I can say, in my 40+ years of flying, when I am flying VFR and hear that phrase, I go wherever I want at whatever alt I want, and I've never heard a peep from anyone. I can't recall ever hearing that phrase when flying IFR. If I did I think I'd be confused and I would have to question the controller about it.
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There is a use for it in IFR. It was invented before Radar began being used for VFR services. It still exists. It did get changed from Resume Normal Navigation to Own Navigation back around 1980 or so. I guess someone didn't like the implication that Radar wasn't normal. It is used for VFR nowadays and is probably more so than the IFR Application now that RNAV is almost universal. Here are some of the Controllers rules on it:


e. Provide radar navigational guidance until the aircraft is:
1. Established within the airspace to be protected for the nonradar route to be flown, or
2. On a heading that will, within a reasonable distance, intercept the nonradar route to be flown, and
3. Informed of its position unless the aircraft is RNAV, FMS, or DME equipped and being vectored toward a VORTAC/TACAN or waypoint and within the service volume of the NAVAID.
PHRASEOLOGY−
(Position with respect to course/fix along route),
RESUME OWN NAVIGATION

c. Inform VFR participating aircraft when leaving the TRSA.
PHRASEOLOGY−
LEAVING THE (name) TRSA,
and as appropriate,
RESUME OWN NAVIGATION, REMAIN THIS FREQUENCY FOR TRAFFIC ADVISORIES, RADAR SERVICE TERMINATED, SQUAWK ONE TWO ZERO ZERO.

d. Inform VFR aircraft when leaving Class B airspace.
PHRASEOLOGY−
LEAVING (name) BRAVO AIRSPACE,
and as appropriate,
RESUME OWN NAVIGATION, REMAIN THIS FREQUENCY FOR TRAFFIC ADVISORIES, RADAR SERVICE TERMINATED, SQUAWK ONE TWO ZERO ZERO.

They don't cover 'resume own navigation' in Class C procedures. In all the Classes is this:

c. Aircraft assigned altitudes which are contrary to 14 CFR Section 91.159 must be advised to resume altitudes appropriate for the direction of flight when the altitude assignment is no longer required or when leaving Class B (or C or TRSA, my insertion, they all read the same) airspace.
PHRASEOLOGY−
RESUME APPROPRIATE VFR ALTITUDES

Resume Own Navigation is a horizontal function. That being said, If I had an altitude assignment and they said Radar Service Terminated, Squawk VFR, have a nice day, and left out RESUME APPROPRIATE VFR ALTITUDES, I would just say thank you and be on my merry way without questioning altitude. If they said Resume Own Navigation but didn't Terminate me and it seemed that it was time to get off that altitude assignment I would ask.
 
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flyingron said:
As the posted PCG entry says, it ends "vectoring." It has nothing, IFR or VFR to do with altitude. If you're IFR, you're likely cleared for a specific altitude already and this doesn't change that.
If your VFR, except in certain very controlled cases (like inside a class B), you won't be on an assigned altitude so you weren't restricted before you got the RESUME OWN NAVIGATION anyhow.
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Yup
 
I used the phraseology far more for IFRs than I ever did for VFRs. Even with RNAV. All of our departures were on initial headings so you had to “set them free” to go own nav.
 
luvflyin said:
It could be the taxi route has areas of non-visibility from the Tower.
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In those situations (out of view of the tower), I believe the phraseology that would be used is "at your own risk" or something to that effect.

"at your discretion" can be revoked (technically it all can be revoked). If you take too long or another plane comes in and lands and needs to taxi or a vehicle needs to cross your path, etc, then the controller can amend your taxi instructions but on a quiet day with no activity, the controller can issue you your taxi clearance instructing you to taxi at your discretion and then not really have to worry about you being sequenced with other ground traffic again provided A) you move and B) follow the correct instructions.

"at your own risk" is more "I dont have eyes on you or anyone else in that area." Generally speaking these areas are usually limited due to the visibility in the tower and the regular presence of large non-movement areas around buildings and such where the tower/ground control does not exert control.
 
I heard a little testy exchange between Approach and a pilot here of the form "Resume Own Nav means go back to following the assigned route yourself" not "go direct to destination."
 
Michael A said:
Cant say I know the exact regs around it, but I havs flown VFR into busy class B and they really treat VFR traffic the same and still give altitude restrictions.
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In Class B airspace, all aircraft are on a clearance. There is no regulatory differences for adhering to the clearance.

In Class C, D, and E airspace, you are given an altitude as an instruction. If the instruction is an altitude, you must follow that instruct even after a resume own Nav instruction. When in doubt, inquire from ATC.
 
bflynn said:
VFR flight navigation is at the direction of the PIC unless you're in controlled airspace talking to ATC. Resume own navigation means you are free to fly any course or altitude you desire. In VFR flight, you should hear this when leaving controlled airspace and ATC is turning you loose or when you're receiving traffic advisories and ATC had vectored you around something.

If you're inside of controlled airspace, this usually means you're the only one around.
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No it doesn’t. You can be in an area with a lot of aircraft separated vertically by 500 ft and horizontally by less than a mile. Also Class E is controlled airspace. Hopefully you don’t think you are the only one around.
 
flyingron said:
I heard a little testy exchange between Approach and a pilot here of the form "Resume Own Nav means go back to following the assigned route yourself" not "go direct to destination."
Click to expand...

Yeah. There’s a whole generation of pilots now raised in the era of Resume Own Navigation in it’s VFR sense. That being you just get back to following the river, the road, the shoreline, the magenta line after your last ‘direct enter enter’ or whatever. Someone carrying that through to IFR where it means get back to using your own navigational equipment and follow the needles, the bearing pointers, the magenta lines to navigate on your assigned route and giving himself a new route doesn’t surprise me.
 
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As pilots we must act in accordance with the FARs with guidance from the AIM.

When I'm standing up before a judge, and I pull out pages of internet screenshots of arguments from a 100 different people who can't agree on what something means it's not going to make much of an impression.

When I pull out the AIM and show the phrase and meaning... I have something of value.

The meaning of 'Resume Own Navigation' seems pretty obvious doesn't it?. But so many have to make more out of it than what it says.

It says nothing about, nor does it imply anything about altitude or the airspace. As a matter of fact, it specifically talks about heading (ie.vectors) only.

FAR/AIM 733 03/29/18
RESUME OWN NAVIGATION- Used by ATC to advise a pilot to resume his/her own navigational responsibility. This sounds pretty self explanatory, but apparently it is not explanatory enough for some. What environment are you in and what are your responsibilities as PIC?

It is issued after completion of a radar vector Again, this has nothing to do with airspace per say, it's simply a vector. Once you have completed that vector, what is your responsibility as PIC?

or when radar contact is lost while the aircraft is being radar vectored. Same as above, where are you, what are you trying to achieve and what is your responsibility as PIC?

Can you be in an environment where you might still need to maintain your altitude after hearing that phrase? Of course you can, but the controller should have been more clear in their phraseology.

Can you be in an environment where you might be free to fly as you please? Absolutely.

The bottom line is, if you're confused by the controllers assignment, then ask. It's better to confirm even if you think the controller might get ticked off at you. I'll take that any day over being violated for busting a reg.
 
Clip4 said:
No it doesn’t. You can be in an area with a lot of aircraft separated vertically by 500 ft and horizontally by less than a mile. Also Class E is controlled airspace. Hopefully you don’t think you are the only one around.
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Sigh...should know by now.

If you're given "own navigation" inside of class-C or B airspace, it probably means you're the only one around. Otherwise they'll have you flying a vector.
 
bflynn said:
Sigh...should know by now.

If you're given "own navigation" inside of class-C or B airspace, it probably means you're the only one around. Otherwise they'll have you flying a vector.
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Assuming you maintain the altitude issued by ATC (usually “remain at or below #### ft) you have a adequate separation for the controller to end vectors. That does not mean you change altitudes.
 
phraseology.

Sorry clippy, I don't really care to explain what I meant to the nth degree so it can be nit picked again.
 
SToL said:
I'm confused, what does 'remain at or below #### ft' mean if it doesn't mean you can change altitudes?
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It means don’t be climbing above the limitation as ATC may have traffic above you.
 
bflynn said:
Sigh...should know by now.

If you're given "own navigation" inside of class-C or B airspace, it probably means you're the only one around. Otherwise they'll have you flying a vector.
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I strongly disagree. I've been left on my own navigation in very busy class B airspaces. The controller just sees you on the scope and figures you are going to do something predictable.
 
flyingron said:
I strongly disagree. I've been left on my own navigation in very busy class B airspaces. The controller just sees you on the scope and figures you are going to do something predictable.
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Yup. And sometimes you are on your 'own navigation' on an assigned route where you are definitely predictable . Many of these in the Los Angeles B. These routes use VOR radials to fly. You are assigned a specific route. But you are on your own navigation because you use your equipment to stay on those radials. Resume your own navigation only means just fly the route you want to if that was what you were doing before the vector was initiated. 'Pick your own route to fly' and 'resume your own navigation' are two different things. I know you know this, just gettin it out there
 
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