Need Advice Crossing Rocky Mountains in Winter

rhvpilot said:
Henning said:
Yep, highways and a minimum of a 406 G/PLB are very good things to have. This time of year though the highway trick may not be that friendly either if the weather goes to hell on you enroute.
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My apologies for ignorance. What is 406 g/PLB?
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406 is the frequency the COPAS/SARSAT system works on. This is the worlds only dedicated SAR system, and only a 406 device will activate it, not a SPOT, not a Cellphone or whatever. If the number on the device is 406, that's what it does.

There are three basic models of 406 devices, ELT with an automatic shock switch that are used in aviation, an EPIRB which floats and is automatically activated when it goes in the water, and a PLB (Personal Locator Beacon) which is smaller (about the size of an old Nokia cell phone these days) and only has a manual trigger.

The G/ stands for GPS enabled. It is an option to the system, it works without the integral GPS, but depending on timing and location, it may take up to 40 minutes to derive your position using I believe Doppler shift from a couple of satellite passes. With the G/ option they basically have your position within 15 seconds of you pushing that button and satellite gets the GPS data and transmits it the Earth station, and the appropriate station assigns an individual the responsibility to see your file through to the close, and within a minute or so they are making phone calls to find you first. If they can't contact you and nobody knows you are ok, then equipment starts moving pretty quickly to find you.

A G/PLB is now under $300, it is the best $300 a person who travels a lot can spend. I don't know if it is true, but I heard a story in Asia where some guy got kidnapped and had his G/PLB in his pocket and was rescued through triggering it.
 
rhvpilot said:
I have some family business to take care of before I take off. Also a lot of IFR area just below MI.

I will post in as soon as the plan is clear, it will probably be in next 1-2 weeks.

You guys are so helpful. I intend to post as I move along the route as a thank you note to all of you.
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Oh geez....

The world could end in the next 1-2 weeks......:D
 
murphey said:
Tom-D said:
Phones don't always work in many parts of the Rockies.
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Surprisingly enough Wyoming has pretty good coverage until you're right in the rocks. Union Wireless has invested fairly heavily driven by both the State and the extraction industries. Of course you are correct about coverage right in the mountains - it's tough to get into some of the valleys.
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rhvpilot said:
good! another good option
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There are a lot of good options to choose from, which one is the best will depend on the weather pattern the days you are flying. Each of the routes can be a gorgeous good time, each of the routes can kill you. Probably 1500 of my hours have been traveling back and forth across the entire country, often on a moments notice. The one thing I learned is never plan a route, always plan multiple routes, and don't be afraid to fly an extra 700 miles, I only takes a few hours and a tank of gas, and I have found flying and extra 700 miles cost is roughly equivalent to the cost of stopping for a day to wait out the weather, and winter weather that grounds you typically will have you sitting for 2-3 days, so at that point you're cheaper off to fly an extra 1500 miles, and I have never had to detour that far for weather. Have options along each route, because guess what? Weather doesn't always do what the briefer tell it to.;) The further north you are in the winter, the more rebellious the weather seems to get.

Work out routes from the Canadian to the Mexican border and stow them on your iPad or whatever. If it looks like it's going to hell in front of you, just make a lateral shift in routes, the early you you make the call, the less impacts you. Dogged determination in the face of nature's objection is a good way to get killed no matter what you are doing, Aviating puts an exponent on the risk factor. Nature doesn't care about your wallet either, the trip will cost what it costs.

I need to be in Ensenada in a few weeks to grab a yacht off a ship. If you want and the timing works out I could meet you in Detroit and head to the coast with you. It doesn't really matter where I end up or when as long as it is after I load the boat on the ship on the 11th or 12th and when it gets into Ensenada a few weeks later.
 
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Just to clarify my confused mind. It seems like 3 different routes are potential options;

1. I-80 all the way Reno- sacramento and san jose

2. I-80 to Cheyen - provo - Vegas-Bakersfield- San Jose

3. I-40 - ABQ - grand canyon -Vegas Bakersfield- san jose

A lot depends on weather but please give your recommended choice for someone with my level of experience.

Thanks
 
Tom-D said:
When you do the north end around you'll be way north of 70 Which is the worst of the Rockies. There is a lot of aluminum laying on the rocks between the Denver and Grand Junction.
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There isn't a square mile of this country that doesn't have bits of aluminum to be found.:(
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Put this friend in the back seat and take a safety pilot with you with high time.
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WHAT? and spoil the adventure? Grab a sectional do weather and go where and when the weather will allow.
 
rhvpilot said:
Just to clarify my confused mind. It seems like 3 different routes are potential options;

1. I-80 all the way Reno- sacramento and san jose

2. I-80 to Cheyen - provo - Vegas-Bakersfield- San Jose

3. I-40 - ABQ - grand canyon -Vegas Bakersfield- san jose

A lot depends on weather but please give your recommended choice for someone with my level of experience.

Thanks
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Planning? go I-40

That said, I'm happy to help out on the I-80 route even if it just to meet somewhere and discuss route, weather, and options.

Other option of Henning is that he is experienced and can teach quite well.
 
Henning said:
There are a lot of good options to choose from, which one is the best will depend on the weather pattern the days you are flying. Each of the routes can be a gorgeous good time, each of the routes can kill you. Probably 1500 of my hours have been traveling back and forth across the entire country, often on a moments notice. The one thing I learned is never plan a route, always plan multiple routes, and don't be afraid to fly an extra 700 miles, I only takes a few hours and a tank of gas, and I have found flying and extra 700 miles cost is roughly equivalent to the cost of stopping for a day to wait out the weather, and winter weather that grounds you typically will have you sitting for 2-3 days, so at that point you're cheaper off to fly an extra 1500 miles, and I have never had to detour that far for weather. Have options along each route, because guess what? Weather doesn't always do what the briefer tell it to.;) The further north you are in the winter, the more rebellious the weather seems to get.

Work out routes from the Canadian to the Mexican border and stow them on your iPad or whatever. If it looks like it's going to hell in front of you, just make a lateral shift in routes, the early you you make the call, the less impacts you. Dogged determination in the face of nature's objection is a good way to get killed no matter what you are doing, Aviating puts an exponent on the risk factor. Nature doesn't care about your wallet either, the trip will cost what it costs.

I need to be in Ensenada in a few weeks to grab a yacht off a ship. If you want and the timing works out I could meet you in Detroit and head to the coast with you. It doesn't really matter where I end up or when as long as it is after I load the boat on the ship on the 11th or 12th and when it gets into Ensenada a few weeks later.
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You wrapped it very well, great advice safety is the bottom line.

It will be great to have an experienced pilot sitting next to me. Our schedules may work out fine. Please let me know when you are done loading the boat, I will try my best to make it work.
 
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Clark1961 said:
Planning? go I-40

That said, I'm happy to help out on the I-80 route even if it just to meet somewhere and discuss route, weather, and options.

Other option of Henning is that he is experienced and can teach quite well.
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Thanks. Will love to take advantage of the offer at least to meet an aviator like you.
 
rhvpilot said:
You wrapped it very well, great advice safety is the bottom line.

It will be great to have an experienced pilot sitting next to me. Our schedules may work out fine. Please let me know when you are done loading the boat, I will try my best to make it work.
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Right now the ship is scheduled into Ft Lauderdale on the 11th, but that number floats until the ship is at the dock. Saturday is the Winterfest boat parade and I have to drives the Marines in it with their Toy's for Tots campaign, so likely beginning of next week I'm free.
 
Keep an eye on the weather big picture, make the crossing someplace where the weather ain't. Also pay attention to the winds aloft, if they're higher than 30 knots at the ridge levels turbulence can be impressive. If you have to hole up someplace and wait for weather improvement, do it. Better a couple days late than dragging your broken bones out of the wreckage up at the XXXX pass.
 
Tom-D said:
WHAT? and spoil the adventure? Grab a sectional do weather and go where and when the weather will allow.
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Poor advice. The op writes as though he's not only a low time pilot, but also not familiar with said aircraft. . Mountain flying is a whole other ball game. Take a safety pilot!
 
rhvpilot said:
You wrapped it very well, great advice safety is the bottom line.

It will be great to have an experienced pilot sitting next to me. Our schedules may work out fine. Please let me know when you are done loading the boat, I will try my best to make it work.
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One thing I have found traveling across the country in the winter, IFR is pretty useless you have deicing gear. This actually doesn't bother me much though. First off the reason I spend the money to fly myself around, especially at the speed I desire (180kts/3nm a minute) with twin engine redundancy, is because of the awesome view, there is no better way to see the world than GA; and IMC screws up the view.:(

Luckily though, the country is almost always cross able VFR at some latitude. I have only been delayed more than a day crossing the country once, and could have got out a day early but an FBO hottie took pity on me and took me home for the storm.;) That's what I like about 180kts. In good conditions it gets me across the country in a day, and no matter how convoluted my routing for weather gets, I make it on the second.
 
Henning said:
The fun crossing is I-70 with a high speed taxi through the Eisenhower tunnel.:D;)
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Eisenhower or Johnson? Might be more fun to fly against traffic. ;)

Either way it'd be reminiscent of the first guy through...

"The first driver through the tunnel received a summons-for trespassing. The historic moment occurred in late 1972, when a driver who had been drinking decided that he, not Governor Love, should have the honor of being the first person to drive through the tunnel. He had to drive past the signs prohibiting traffic and through foot-deep mining "muck" and mud. When he emerged, his car was covered with the "goofy stuff," according to a construction spokesman. But Marion Wooldridge was first, as he explained to Judge George Gaubatz of Clear Creek County Court. The judge dismissed the charge on the grounds that the signs prohibiting traffic at the tunnel entrance weren't adequate."
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Poor advice. The op writes as though he's not only a low time pilot, but also not familiar with said aircraft. . Mountain flying is a whole other ball game. Take a safety pilot!
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VFR flying, is VFR flying at any altitude. If the low timed pilot hasn't gained the knowledge that they are not safe in the clouds, they probably shouldn't fly any where.
 
Tom-D said:
VFR flying, is VFR flying at any altitude. If the low timed pilot hasn't gained the knowledge that they are not safe in the clouds, they probably shouldn't fly any where.
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Wrong. Totally, completely, wrong.

Mountain flying among 14000 foot peaks requires skills that you just don't see over 1000 foot terrain, especially when flying naturally aspirated aircraft with pretty low service ceilings (even a 172 is higher than this).

Example: You've just crossed a ridge with a tailwind, having cleared it by 1000 feet. Now, you're full power, slowing to Vy, and you're still descending at 1000 FPM. What do you do? This situation just doesn't happen at low altitude except in extreme circumstances. It's not that unusual in the high mountains on a windy day.
 
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MAKG1 said:
Wrong. Totally, completely, wrong.

Mountain flying among 14000 foot peaks requires skills that you just don't see over 1000 foot terrain, especially when flying naturally aspirated aircraft with pretty low service ceilings (even a 172 is higher than this).
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MAKG is 100% right on this. Having learned to fly in Denver, it is the assumptions made above that is what gets people killed. Mountain flying is specialized flying and it takes specific training even if there is no regulation requiring it.

Going south crosses both the Rockies and Sierras at reasonable altitudes (Amarillo - Albequeque - Vegas - Palmdale) is better for a new pilot.

Either that or pick up an EXPERIENCED mountain flyer to go with you.
 
Makg would be right except no one suggested the OP fly amongst the tall rocks. The world is safe, no need to be on your high horses...
 
flyingron said:
MAKG is 100% right on this. Having learned to fly in Denver, it is the assumptions made above that is what gets people killed. Mountain flying is specialized flying and it takes specific training even if there is no regulation requiring it.

Going south crosses both the Rockies and Sierras at reasonable altitudes (Amarillo - Albequeque - Vegas - Palmdale) is better for a new pilot.

Either that or pick up an EXPERIENCED mountain flyer to go with you.
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I will ride along with the guy and make sure he gets home safely... I fly around 14,000 peaks on a daily basis.. I have a pretty good idea how to get back on the ground in one piece...:yes::yes:
 
N801BH said:
I will ride along with the guy and make sure he gets home safely... I fly around 14,000 peaks on a daily basis.. I have a pretty good idea how to get back on the ground in one piece...:yes::yes:
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What? you've taken to wearing a parachute? :D
 
I also suggest going the Henning route. If that doesn't work out, I try to find a CFI to make the trip with me...maybe knock out some instrument time on the way.

And finally, just be sensitive to the risk factors that are in place: new airframe, unknown plane, lower time pilot, potential for poor weather, inhospitable and unfamiliar terrain, and a desire to really get this plane home soon. They've mostly already been mentioned, but I wanted to put them all in one place!
 
MAKG1 said:
Wrong. Totally, completely, wrong.

Mountain flying among 14000 foot peaks requires skills that you just don't see over 1000 foot terrain, especially when flying naturally aspirated aircraft with pretty low service ceilings (even a 172 is higher than this).

Example: You've just crossed a ridge with a tailwind, having cleared it by 1000 feet. Now, you're full power, slowing to Vy, and you're still descending at 1000 FPM. What do you do? This situation just doesn't happen at low altitude except in extreme circumstances. It's not that unusual in the high mountains on a windy day.
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Dive for airspeed, you'll be rocketing for the flight levels if you can get out of the vortex fast enough. If you can't you turn parallel to the slope, as you get near the tree tops or rocks you'll get into the boundary reverse flow which will provide some lift. You fly that climbing alongside the ridge until you get behind the next peak, that vortex will not exist there so you jam your way across to the windward side of the next peak and do it all over again.:D It's fun to work your way through the mountains, it's an exercise in predictive fluid dynamics in an invisible fluid. It keeps things interesting.:D
 
MAKG1 said:
Wrong. Totally, completely, wrong.

Mountain flying among 14000 foot peaks requires skills that you just don't see over 1000 foot terrain, especially when flying naturally aspirated aircraft with pretty low service ceilings (even a 172 is higher than this).

Example: You've just crossed a ridge with a tailwind, having cleared it by 1000 feet. Now, you're full power, slowing to Vy, and you're still descending at 1000 FPM. What do you do? This situation just doesn't happen at low altitude except in extreme circumstances. It's not that unusual in the high mountains on a windy day.
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Wanna learn mountain flying? Push a barge string up and down the Mississippi River, you get to see how fluids in motion act around obstructions.
 
rhvpilot said:
This is awesome to know. I plan on carrying a portable oxygen cylinder. Thanks
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Good

rhvpilot said:
I have some family business to take care of before I take off. Also a lot of IFR area just below MI.
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rhvpilot said:
A lot depends on weather but please give your recommended choice for someone with my level of experience.
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Jimmy cooper said:
Poor advice. The op writes as though he's not only a low time pilot, but also not familiar with said aircraft. . Mountain flying is a whole other ball game. Take a safety pilot!
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He indicated he was IR training. What he OUGHT to do is take his CFII along and knock out the long XC. Simulateneously, he will be meeting insurance requirements that he didn't even check into yet (remember that required transition training of 5-10 hours before pax?).
 
JasonM said:
I'd take Henning up on his offer.
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flyingron said:
MAKG is 100% right on this. Having learned to fly in Denver, it is the assumptions made above that is what gets people killed. Mountain flying is specialized flying and it takes specific training even if there is no regulation requiring it.

Going south crosses both the Rockies and Sierras at reasonable altitudes (Amarillo - Albequeque - Vegas - Palmdale) is better for a new pilot.

Either that or pick up an EXPERIENCED mountain flyer to go with you.
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Sam D said:
I also suggest going the Henning route. If that doesn't work out, I try to find a CFI to make the trip with me...maybe knock out some instrument time on the way.

And finally, just be sensitive to the risk factors that are in place: new airframe, unknown plane, lower time pilot, potential for poor weather, inhospitable and unfamiliar terrain, and a desire to really get this plane home soon. They've mostly already been mentioned, but I wanted to put them all in one place!
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I am already talking to Henning, hopefully our schedules will work out.

Anyway, I plan on going south and follow I-40 as a first choice (sounds safer choice than other two).

If weather turns to be more favorable, will take up Clark 1961 and FBH's offer and go I-80 (will be great to meet those guys).

Will keep I-80/I-15 as a third choice
 
rhvpilot said:
I am already talking to Henning, hopefully our schedules will work out.

Anyway, I plan on going south and follow I-40 as a first choice (sounds safer choice than other two).

If weather turns to be more favorable, will take up Clark 1961 and FBH's offer and go I-80 (will be great to meet those guys).

Will keep I-80/I-15 as a third choice
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Wise decision making.......:yes::thumbsup:..

You will grow up to be a good pilot...
 
danhagan said:
Good

Simulateneously, he will be meeting insurance requirements that he didn't even check into yet (remember that required transition training of 5-10 hours before pax?).
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My primary CFI is unable to go plus his cost may be out of control if the weather holds us up for extended time. I have arranged to fly a few hours with a local CFI, who will sign me off on Cherokee six. Hopefully that will work out.
 
Sam D said:
I also suggest going the Henning route. If that doesn't work out, I try to find a CFI to make the trip with me...maybe knock out some instrument time on the way.

And finally, just be sensitive to the risk factors that are in place: new airframe, unknown plane, lower time pilot, potential for poor weather, inhospitable and unfamiliar terrain, and a desire to really get this plane home soon. They've mostly already been mentioned, but I wanted to put them all in one place!
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Sam,

Thanks for the suggestion. I have made such arrangements that wouldn't have to worry about work and home if I end up staying somewhere longer. Plane can get home when it is the right time.
 
rhvpilot said:
Anyway, I plan on going south and follow I-40 as a first choice (sounds safer choice than other two).
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Why?

Check the airports altitudes along I-40

and compare with the I-80.

You will find you will be on the high country of I-40 from eastern N.M. To the Ca. boarder I-80. From Eastern Wy, to Salt Lake then it is under 4k from there to So-Cal.
 
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