NDB approaches

G

GauzeGuy

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
Jul 12, 2012
Messages
376
Location
KBJC
Display Name
Display name:
GauzeGuy
Jumped in the sim today to go over NDB approaches, which I had never done before.

My performance was dismal: I felt like I was trying to play hockey with a football bat. :mad2:

Granted, NDB's are falling out of favor, but there are two within a short flight of KAPA. I'd gotten a couple comments that if the plane I'm going to do my check ride in doesn't have a ADF, it's not a concern. Is it really appropriate to toss aside an entire category of approaches for this reason? :dunno:

Edit: post 200. Yay.
 
Last edited:
NDB approaches are somewhat non-precision. Basically if you end up in the same county with the NDB then it's a good approach. :wink2:

It seems to me that flying a heading while keeping track of what the needle is doing is the key to the whole process. Ya gotta have a good idea of the wind though. It's not so easy...oh, the beacon has to be working also. A lot of them are not monitored.

In short, be ready for the missed and don't get low.
 
Dean V said:
If you are not flying a plane equipped with an NDB, don't waste your time.
Click to expand...

This.

My plane doesn't have an ADF. I have never shot an NDB approach even though the only one in the Phoenix valley is at my home airport. I never plan to shoot an NDB approach. You need only enough understanding of them to pass the written.. for me about 15 minutes. Honing & tracking. Done. Don't think about them again. My DPE did not ask a single question about an ADF/NDB.
 
We took our ADF out when it failed. I used to like flying the things and I definitely enjoyed tracking to KOA direct back in the day, especially if a baseball game was on, and you'd end up set up for a nice runway 28 arrival... but there's virtually no point anymore.
 
I like the inherent simplicitly of NDB and ADF, but unless you have ane in the plane you're taking the ride in- and an active NDB Approach nearby that might be tasked by your DPE - I agree you should not wate your time.

I'm keeping my NDB on board as long as it works.
 
When I did the PIC thing we spent maybe an hour just learning ADF / NDB stuff for completeness, but as my plane has no ADF anymore (I replaced it with an XM Radio) and has a WAAS GPS navigator, we didn't really spend a whole lot of time trying to fly (either simulated or actual) them.
 
I agree trying to learn a NDB approach is likely wasting your time. That being said, our airplane has one that I listen to the radio on :). I had to learn them for my IR and always enjoyed the challenge (as long as I was in VMC conditions). I think there may still be some approaches that require an ADF if you don't have an approach certified GPS.
 
If you're trying to teach yourself NDB approaches in the sim, I can see how it would be very frustrating. However, if your instructor just tossed you into the sim to try them without a good bit of time talking about them and drawing diagrams and the like until you had a fundamental understanding of them, then shame on your instructor.

In any event, I do not teach NDB approaches to people with no ADF in their plane any more than I teach GPS approaches to people with no GPS in their plane. When they get that system later on, they can get training on it then. In any event, the IR PTS says only the nav systems actually installed in your plane are "applicable" on the IR practical test.
 
Ron Levy said:
<snip> In any event, the IR PTS says only the nav systems actually installed in your plane are "applicable" on the IR practical test.
Click to expand...


Whatever you do, get that Sextent out of the plane before your checkride!
 
A Lear 60 owner just requested removal of the ship's ADFs...
 
ADF are good for listening to AM radio. Probably a christian station or something. You can also fly to a radio station. LOL
 
Captain said:
Whatever you do, get that Sextent out of the plane before your checkride!
Click to expand...
Having been trained in Celestial Navigation, it wouldn't bother me to show up with a sextant, but since celestial nav isn't listed in the IR PTS at all, it wouldn't matter anyway.
 
oh NDB approaches. so beautiful and simple. I miss them.
 
At work, we don't fly NDB approaches in the traditional way anymore. If we use them, it's with a GPS overlay approach with a constant descent to a DDA. (derived decision altitude; or DA +50').

While the old way was kinda fun, it was almost worthless as an approach. I called them "very non-precision".
 
Otto the pilot said:
At work, we don't fly NDB approaches in the traditional way anymore. If we use them, it's with a GPS overlay approach with a constant descent to a DDA. (derived decision altitude; or DA +50').
Click to expand...
That may be fine for your "work" and when an overlay is published, but it won't help much on a non-overlay NDB approach on an IR practical test, or when the GPS is "disabled" by the examiner.
 
Life isn't a checkride Ron.

On second thought, maybe it is...
 
Ron Levy said:
That may be fine for your "work" and when an overlay is published, but it won't help much on a non-overlay NDB approach on an IR practical test, or when the GPS is "disabled" by the examiner.
Click to expand...

No published overlays, we just do them for a published non-prcesion approach. Not allowed to disable the GPS either (in my plane). Plus, those GPS/RNAV/RNAV RNP approaches are on the annual checkride.
 
Ron Levy said:
That may be fine for your "work" and when an overlay is published, but it won't help much on a non-overlay NDB approach on an IR practical test, or when the GPS is "disabled" by the examiner.
Click to expand...

Ron, we don't use a "published" overlay either. We just take any old NDB approach and fly the approach coupled to the FMS in 'nav' mode. We do have to put the bearing pointer up pointing to the station...but that's it.

Same with a VOR approach. Coupled to the FMS with a pointer pointing at the VOR. Yes...a pointer. That's all.
 
Otto the pilot said:
No published overlays, we just do them for a published non-prcesion approach. Not allowed to disable the GPS either (in my plane). Plus, those GPS/RNAV/RNAV RNP approaches are on the annual checkride.
Click to expand...
Not sure what you mean then about how you fly those NDB approaches. Are you saying you just load the NDB in the GPS and fly it off the GPS in OBS mode while monitoring the NDB? That may work in practice but it won't pass an FAA checkride -- the examiner will almost certainly "fail" the GPS if you try that.
 
I haven't flown an NDB since my initial instrument training, and I'm pretty sure I would fly right into the ground if I had to now. I wouldn't worry about it, unless you are trying to fly somewhere weird like Alaska or Antarctica

Speaking of now out of favor navigational aids, anyone ever use a LORAN-C? I remember flying my old man's Bonanza and firing up the LORAN on a whim. It actually seemed to be somewhat accurate (as in the same general area I was in), which was surprising since I'm pretty sure his gear hasn't received maintenance or any updates since like 1975 or something. That and I didn't honestly know the network was still operative. This was a while back so maybe things have changed now.
 
Last edited:
The adf/ndb used to be vital, but once we were able to get Rush Limbaugh on the iPhone we took those radios right out;-)
 
Whole bunch of irrational NDB fear here...

If you are good at reading a plate and shooting an approach then there's no reason why you should be afraid of an NDB approach. The basics are the same, MSA, IAF, outbound, procedure turn, inbound, FAF, dive and drive. Where's the mystery?

Sure, they are less accurate than an ILS, what isn't? Yeah, they tend to have higher MDAs, so what? They'll still get you below the clouds on most days within a mile or so of the airport.

If you are sloppy with compensating for winds aloft then the NDB approaches will be hard for you. If you keep the winds in mind they'll be cake.

I have an ADF in my plane. I told the DPE that I was ready, willing and able to shoot an NDB approach on my check ride. He didn't ask me to.
 
Melting said:
The adf/ndb used to be vital, but once we were able to get Rush Limbaugh on the iPhone we took those radios right out;-)
Click to expand...

must....fight....urge....to....post.....


arrrrgggghhhhhh!
 
Captain said:
Life isn't a checkride Ron.

On second thought, maybe it is...
Click to expand...

Sure isn't, but since my original question was in respect to instrument check ride prep, Ron's pertinent responses sure have been appreciated.
 
Morne said:
Whole bunch of irrational NDB fear here...

If you are good at reading a plate and shooting an approach then there's no reason why you should be afraid of an NDB approach.
Click to expand...

My issue, FWIW, is getting lined up on a bearing. Other than that, NDB approaches seem to be pretty easy...
 
ajstoner21 said:
Do they still have ndb approaches? All the ndbs near me are being shut down
Click to expand...
Yep. I still do one a few times a year when winds and direction of flight make it the most expeditious way in.
 
GauzeGuy said:
My issue, FWIW, is getting lined up on a bearing. Other than that, NDB approaches seem to be pretty easy...
Click to expand...

There was a funny article in Flying magazine about teaching NDB approaches a long time ago. The author started out saying he had the perfect technique and ended up saying chase the needle.

My practical philosophy was that if the NDB was functioning and I was in the same county then everything was good. Of course the two conditions never occurred simultaneously unless the moon was full and a republican was in the white house. YMWV.
 
35 AoA said:
I haven't flown an NDB since my initial instrument training, and I'm pretty sure I would fly right into the ground if I had to now. I wouldn't worry about it, unless you are trying to fly somewhere weird like Alaska or Antarctica

Speaking of now out of favor navigational aids, anyone ever use a LORAN-C? I remember flying my old man's Bonanza and firing up the LORAN on a whim. It actually seemed to be somewhat accurate (as in the same general area I was in), which was surprising since I'm pretty sure his gear hasn't received maintenance or any updates since like 1975 or something. That and I didn't honestly know the network was still operative. This was a while back so maybe things have changed now.
Click to expand...

My Bo has a Northstar M1 LORAN, works flawlessly... Or it would, if there was anything for it to "hear."

I used it all the time as backup when the network still worked. Interestingly enough, it never once failed, while GPS still could occasionally lose signal. Would be a very sound, robust and already-built backup to GPS...
 
There are still lots of NDBs in Central and South America, and Southeast Asia. But if you don't need 'em, it's be like learning Cnav and putting a dome in the top of your Mooney....

I could draw the triangle back in the day. Still have a Celestron, well worn, in the case.
 
I have a witness: David served as a safety pilot for me when I did an NDB approach to Kerrville (KERV) last summer; it most definitely would have resulted in a successful landing had it been for real. David had never seen one; I felt like the crusty old fart.
 
I did one, at night, after I got my IFR... Just to do one, and say that I had. It sucked and I resolved to never plan on using one again..

This is far different though, than simply using it to ID the FAF on ILS 36 @ KIXD, which is easy enough with an ADF in the scan...
 
hit direct to the apt on the GPS and then select OBS mode and put a course through it...a million times more accurate....but ignore it because its for "advisory" purposes only and you could easily get killed accurately tracking the runway course by looking at it

....but if you must push the head and pull the tail.
 
GauzeGuy said:
Jumped in the sim today to go over NDB approaches, which I had never done before.

My performance was dismal: I felt like I was trying to play hockey with a football bat. :mad2:

Granted, NDB's are falling out of favor, but there are two within a short flight of KAPA. I'd gotten a couple comments that if the plane I'm going to do my check ride in doesn't have a ADF, it's not a concern. Is it really appropriate to toss aside an entire category of approaches for this reason? :dunno:

Edit: post 200. Yay.
Click to expand...

NDB approaches were the bane and joy of my IR training. My CFI-IA would, as a matter of course, make them partial-panel, just to spice things up. It would be so overloaded, that I actually started to RELAX. Why? I just thought to myself, well, this is ridiculous, so let's just do this approach and have some fun.

Not all that sorry to see them fade away, though!
 
Ron Levy said:
Not sure what you mean then about how you fly those NDB approaches. Are you saying you just load the NDB in the GPS and fly it off the GPS in OBS mode while monitoring the NDB? That may work in practice but it won't pass an FAA checkride -- the examiner will almost certainly "fail" the GPS if you try that.
Click to expand...

In the Airbus that's exactly how we fly it. The PF uses the ND and the NFP uses the ADF rose.

And yes, that's how it's done on the type ride (FAA).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top