NASH 3, KNOX 4, RALEIGH 7, ...

Cpt_Kirk

Cpt_Kirk

En-Route
Joined
Jan 20, 2014
Messages
3,296
Location
Georgia
Display Name
Display name:
Ted Striker
http://www.airnav.com/airport/KBNA (NASH3)
http://www.airnav.com/airport/KTYS (KNOX4)
http://www.airnav.com/airport/KRDU (RDU 7)

Can someone clarify why these departure procedures exist? Why are these being given in the initial clearance and not when the tower clears you for takeoff? I'm assuming it's so both the tower and approach/departure controller are on the exact same page when it comes to my initial plan after departure but it seems like some formality over functionality.

Here's how it went down yesterday leaving BNA:

Clearance delivery: "N12345, you're cleared to your destination via the NASHVILLE 3 departure, then as filed. Climb via the SID except maintain 4,000, expect 7,000 within 5 minutes. Departure freq is 123.45, squawk 1234."
__________
NASHVILLE THREE:

TAKEOFF RWYS 20L/C/R: Climb heading 201° or assigned ATC heading, thence....

....maintain 4000. Expect radar vectors and clearance to filed altitude within 5 minutes after departure.
__________

I found it funny that he said to climb via the SID, except maintain 4,000... when the SID says 4,000 is the initial altitude anyway. :dunno:

Cleared for takeoff, I was given a divergent heading (off of 20C) for the KA behind me. This type of departure procedure just leaves me scrambling the last minute in the cockpit to brief myself and get everything squared away (although, it's never much once reading the SID).

WHY?
 
Sounds like the same situation we have here in Manassas. We always get issued a SID (Arsenal4) as part of our clearance with the same type of verbiage you describe. The reason is for traffic as Manassas sits under the arrival to Dulles. However I've never had the tower give additional instructions on takeoff. And we never fly the entire SID as departure clears to some point in our route and to our final altitude soon after checking in.
 
Maybe to ensure that you are going to meet the minimum climb gradient?
 
The main purpose of SIDs are to reduce ATC & pilot workload. So your clearance would sound like this: "N12345, you're cleared to your destination via the NASHVILLE 3 departure, then as filed. Expect 7,000 within 5 minutes. Departure freq is 123.45, squawk 1234."

Instead of: "N12345, you're cleared to your destination via the NASHVILLE 3 departure, then as filed. Climb via the SID except maintain 4,000, expect 7,000 within 5 minutes. Departure freq is 123.45, squawk 1234."

Controller must have been having an off day.
 
Agreed. This is like the CAPITAL (I think the are up to NINE) NINE. if the controller issues it right it saves them time.

For example...

Navion 5327K Cleared to Ocean Island via CAPITAL NINE HANEY. Squawk 4321.

This obviates the full clearance of

Navion 5732lK Cleared to Ocean Island via Radar Vectors HANEY then as Filed. Climb and maintain 3000 expect filed altitude ten minutes after departure. Departure frequency 126.1 Squawk 4321. and then... Fly Runway Heading prior to Cleared for Takeoff.
 
The key think about the KNOX 4 procedure is the lost comms instructions. Otherwise you could fly into some cumulogranite at 6,000' to the east.
 
takeoff minimums, obstacles, departure frequency, lost comms and a list of exit gates/waypoints.
 
All the lost comm says is if you're going to the SE climb to 9000 before heanding on course. Not so much "being on the same page" as "don't hit the terrain."

I wasn't expecting a SID at HKY given it's a little backwater place (normally arriving VFR calling in ten miles out gets a "cleared to land runway 24" in response), but we've got HICKORY THREE which has the primary job of telling you to maintain a certain feet per NM (depending which way you're going).
 
The raleigh 7 is simply to fly runway heading. If you file VFR they will tell you to fly runway heading. If you file IFR clearance delivery will give you the old raleigh 7
 
dell30rb said:
The raleigh 7 is simply to fly runway heading. If you file VFR they will tell you to fly runway heading. If you file IFR clearance delivery will give you the old raleigh 7
Click to expand...

It also gives you an initial altitude for some of the runways and the statement to expect file in ten and the appropriate approach frequency. If they do it right they can omit repeating all this stuff in your clearance.

For a long time they were pretty redundant at IAD with the CAPITAL departure. They've gotten a lot sharper. All they need now do is give an initial fix and a squawk code after they say CAPITAL NINE.
 
tsts4 said:
Sounds like the same situation we have here in Manassas. We always get issued a SID (Arsenal4) as part of our clearance with the same type of verbiage you describe. The reason is for traffic as Manassas sits under the arrival to Dulles. However I've never had the tower give additional instructions on takeoff. And we never fly the entire SID as departure clears to some point in our route and to our final altitude soon after checking in.
Click to expand...


So true. And you get released from the altitude restriction right away get vectors and never actually make it to Casanova or Martinsburg WV.
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
http://www.airnav.com/airport/KBNA (NASH3)
http://www.airnav.com/airport/KTYS (KNOX4)
http://www.airnav.com/airport/KRDU (RDU 7)

Can someone clarify why these departure procedures exist? Why are these being given in the initial clearance and not when the tower clears you for takeoff? I'm assuming it's so both the tower and approach/departure controller are on the exact same page when it comes to my initial plan after departure but it seems like some formality over functionality.
Click to expand...
Notice all the SIDs that BNA has. They are probably assigned mostly to air carriers and business aviation going into the flight levels. They are also all RNAV SIDs. The Nashville Three is basically an instruction for radar vectors. They need that because they don't want you flying the ODP. Sure, they could just state, "Fly heading XXX for radar vectors (to your filed fix)." But, hopefully a vector SID removes some uncertainty for ATC, if not for you.
 
Hybrid SID - Runway Heading to a heading/altitude until final altitude and direct on course as filed.
 
I get HUGO 3 out of Concord. Same kind of thing, heading to fly based on runway...thence radar vectors climb to 3,000'
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
Can someone clarify why these departure procedures exist?
Click to expand...
For the same reason as all SIDs exist - to reduce controller and pilot workload.

Here's how it went down yesterday leaving BNA:

Clearance delivery: "N12345, you're cleared to your destination via the NASHVILLE 3 departure, then as filed. Climb via the SID except maintain 4,000, expect 7,000 within 5 minutes. Departure freq is 123.45, squawk 1234."
__________
NASHVILLE THREE:

TAKEOFF RWYS 20L/C/R: Climb heading 201° or assigned ATC heading, thence....

....maintain 4000. Expect radar vectors and clearance to filed altitude within 5 minutes after departure.
__________

I found it funny that he said to climb via the SID, except maintain 4,000... when the SID says 4,000 is the initial altitude anyway. :dunno:
Click to expand...
Probably for the same reason controllers will give you the Departure frequency - they've figured out some pilots are unfamiliar with SID use and sometimes forget to read some of it. I'd bet there are a lot of times, pilots will read back a clearance and ask for the Departure frequency. There have been enough issues with "climb via" understanding, I can see controllers taking the extra reminder step.

Cleared for takeoff, I was given a divergent heading (off of 20C) for the KA behind me. This type of departure procedure just leaves me scrambling the last minute in the cockpit to brief myself and get everything squared away (although, it's never much once reading the SID).
Click to expand...
I don't understand that one.
TAKEOFF RWYS 20L/C/R: Climb heading 201° or assigned ATC heading​
So, if I'm reading it right, ATC assigned you a different initial heading. And it's "never much once reading the SID." What was the "scramble"? I must be missing something.
 
Cpt_Kirk said:
http://www.airnav.com/airport/KBNA (NASH3)
http://www.airnav.com/airport/KTYS (KNOX4)
http://www.airnav.com/airport/KRDU (RDU 7)

Can someone clarify why these departure procedures exist? Why are these being given in the initial clearance and not when the tower clears you for takeoff? I'm assuming it's so both the tower and approach/departure controller are on the exact same page when it comes to my initial plan after departure but it seems like some formality over functionality.

Here's how it went down yesterday leaving BNA:

Clearance delivery: "N12345, you're cleared to your destination via the NASHVILLE 3 departure, then as filed. Climb via the SID except maintain 4,000, expect 7,000 within 5 minutes. Departure freq is 123.45, squawk 1234."
__________
NASHVILLE THREE:

TAKEOFF RWYS 20L/C/R: Climb heading 201° or assigned ATC heading, thence....

....maintain 4000. Expect radar vectors and clearance to filed altitude within 5 minutes after departure.
__________

I found it funny that he said to climb via the SID, except maintain 4,000... when the SID says 4,000 is the initial altitude anyway. :dunno:

Cleared for takeoff, I was given a divergent heading (off of 20C) for the KA behind me. This type of departure procedure just leaves me scrambling the last minute in the cockpit to brief myself and get everything squared away (although, it's never much once reading the SID).

WHY?
Click to expand...


What was your filed altitude? Seems like the difference here is that you are to expect 7000 in 5 rather than your filed in 5.
 
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