If they ever put through the Pt 23 reform, you'll see it happen to a lot of planes as well.
*NA* Roadster recommendations
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If they ever put through the Pt 23 reform, you'll see it happen to a lot of planes as well.
EdFred
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In what world is 2575 (my red line in the Comanche) higher than 6000 (both my car and truck)?
They may run at a higher percentage of rated poower continuously, but that is not the same thing as "extreme RPM"
Hank S
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Ed, redline in my plane is 2700; I cruise for hours at 2500.
In my car, redline is 6300; I cruise for hours and hours and hours around 2000 rpm.
Which one is at a higher percentage of redline? Which one is at a higher absolute RPM? That was probably the guy's point, although I wasn't involved in the original discussion.
Dav8or
Final Approach
Yep and loads of us are willing to take the hit to have the freedom from regulation. As more and more people sign on, valuation of used, formerly certified aircraft will handled the same as a used Vans RV. With good logs and good builder reputation the price will be higher. I imagine quality certified will always command the highest prices though.
Luvrv8
Line Up and Wait
Have a look at a Mitsubishi 300GT VR4 Spyder. All wheel drive, twin turbo and a hard top convertible. I had one as a factory demo for a few months and enjoyed driving it.
3393RP
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The 928 debuted in 1978. The 1978 Corvette had a 175 HP base engine, and performance wasn't a word I would associate with that car. I doubt Porsche considered the Corvette when they designed the 928.
Porsche's stated intention was to build a luxury sports coupe, a market in which they had no presence. Whether they accomplished that can be argued endlessly, but I don't think the prospective 928 buyer would have considered a Corvette as a legitimate alternative.
I actually knew a guy that bought a 928 in that year, he was a former Houston NFL player that coincidentally purchased a Chevrolet dealership shortly thereafter, and he now owns several dealerships here in Texas.
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SoonerAviator
I will assume you meant 3000GT. Good luck finding one that hasn't been all riced-out. Even when you find one that hasn't had neon lights, fart-can exhausts, and ridiculous spoilers on it, it will likely have a decent amount of blue smoke coming out of the tailpipe just like everything else Mitsubishi makes. The trannies weren't much on longevity, either. Sorry, but the Stealth/3000GT were great when new, but didn't hold up well over time. The same year 300ZX and Corvette were better built and quicker. That being said, I liked the way all of those cars looked, but they are just heavy as can be!
The 350Z could be a good option for the OP as well. I'd take one over the Miata, on looks alone. Just watch out for the tire-feathering on early models.
You're definitely wrong on that. One of if not the first 928 sold in St Louis had a 75 Vette traded on it, and 3 years later Ed traded on an 81 Vette. I know other guys who have both in their stables.
kgruber
Final Approach
Actually..........the 390/427 was no different from the 300/327, 350/327, 390/427, 400/427, and 435/427.........all could be ordered with 3.08, 3.36, 3.55, 3.70, 4.11, 4.56:1 rear end gears.
The 430 L-88.....I don't know. They all had the M-22 transmission, and I suspect few (8?) that were made had pretty low gears.
I would suspect 3:70s behind an L-88 with a 2.2 first gear close ratio box; that's what I would order unless I was headed for the drag strip or a road course with minimal straight always. Plenty of torque and wouldn't want to give up the top speed that the 4:56s cost, those are small block gears.
Luvrv8
Line Up and Wait
Yes, typo on my part it is a 3000GT.
As for your trashing of the car, I have a slightly different perspective. The valve guide issues were a issue with the 3.0 single overhead cam engine. I have not had any issues from the transmissions (made by Getrag) other then owners not servicing them. I don't know where you got your facts from but I was a factory trained Mitsubishi tech that worked in Cypress Ca prepping cars for the magazines and taking in problem children from all over Ca in attempts to repair them correctly so they weren't labeled lemons. We didn't get many 3000's as they were pretty rock solid. Eclipse's were our issue. I still own a 3000GT as I really like them for their simplicity. If I want a POS then I drive my DeLorean.
DeLoreans...
I would have loved to be in on the dealer prep on those coming off the ship.
I would have loved to be in on the dealer prep on those coming off the ship.
RalphInCA
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Not my experience, but - hey, you believe what you want. My Z4 gets lots of very positive comments. And drives great.
$15k is possible.
James331
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DeLoreans...
By no means a car that's going to win the red light Grand Prix, but I always did like those cars.
mtuomi
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DMC! Great car, until someone thought "hmm, I heard Peugeot makes a good engine!" (well, PRV, but still a piece of junk).
No wonder mr. DeLorean thought he'd call Charlie for supplemental income
3393RP
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LOL...
I'm "definitely wrong" because of your anecdotal example of one? That's a typical know it all comment.
The 928s in the late 70's and 80's were far superior in performance and luxury compared to a Corvette of that era. Corvettes built between 1974 and 1989 were not performance cars. Besides that, they were noted for cheap construction and the amount of plastic used in the interior.
What someone has in their collection today has no bearing on the topic.
James331
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You're mixing generations of Vettes there.
First off a 911 or something OK, but the 928 was a highway cruiser weighing in a 3400lbs, it's a steel unibody (like a Buick) vs a Vettes fiberglass on aluminum frame (like a race car).
Let's take the least desirable generation, and lest expensive generation of Vette (which happens to fall into your time frame) the C4.
A C4 is a straight sports car, 5.7 aluminum V8
928 is a Touring car
The Vette is lower, it's wider, it's got bigger tires, it's pulling less weight, aero dynamics wise I'd imagine the C4 also comes up on top.
If that's not enough take the C4 ZR-1, 0-60 in 4.4 and near 180mph top end
Plus go turn wrenches or buy parts for the cars, let's not even mention the after market or high performance mods, you'll be singing vetts praises all day long.
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Not one, I can show you quite a few collections that have both, a couple have multiple Corvettes and Porsches. To say they don't attract the same market share is absolute poppycock.
Corvettes have always been performance cars to those who wanted to make them perform be it through a modified Chevy, or the ZR-1 option from the later time period you quote.
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mtuomi
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Like a race car where?
And don't let me get started on the idiotic rear suspension...
C6 was the first Vette that can be taken seriously, C4 and C5 were plastic toys. ZR1 was fine on 1/4 mile, most Vettes do well on a skidpad, but handlingwise they were horrendous. They pull +1G on a skidpad, but then when you try to change direction, its game over.
928 was a great car but wasn't really competing against a Corvette. Completely different category (a heavy GT car vs. a plastic nasty crap).
928 handles WAY better than C4/C5, the Weissach rear end works like a dream. But again, it's comparing two cars that were for two different target groups (and price ranges).
The difference between American performance cars and European performance cars is that American ones were typically modified by the owners. The old IRS suspension from 63 on was good for tracking, it just needed some better sway bars and bushings. What is was was weak if you put 400+ HP to it. The 12 bolt pumpkin was just too weak, but you could buy Ford 9" replacement center sections from several aftermarket suppliers. Corvettes have always been able to hold their own on the track, thing is that there was no factory track programs for several decades at the U.S. manufacturers. If the intended product was an ultimate performance car, the people at GM certainly have the talent to field one. That is not the intent though, the intent is to produce the most profitable performance car line, and that includes warranty claims. In those regards, the Corvette stands with any competitor.
IMO the last pretty Vette is an 82, last of the St Louis Vettes.
Stay far away from the Triumph cars...pure junk!
kgruber
Final Approach
Like a race car where?
And don't let me get started on the idiotic rear suspension...
C6 was the first Vette that can be taken seriously, C4 and C5 were plastic toys. ZR1 was fine on 1/4 mile, most Vettes do well on a skidpad, but handlingwise they were horrendous. They pull +1G on a skidpad, but then when you try to change direction, its game over.
You are completely uninformed. Let me help school you!
This world record,25 years old, stands today.
928 was a great car but wasn't really competing against a Corvette. Completely different category (a heavy GT car vs. a plastic nasty crap).
928 handles WAY better than C4/C5, the Weissach rear end works like a dream. But again, it's comparing two cars that were for two different target groups (and price ranges).
The 928 was Porsches miserable attempt to match Chevrolets performance with the same layout. Front V8....rear drive. It failed because it was ugly, slow, expensive, and poorly made.
mtuomi
En-Route
No, no and no.
Just like I said, they do well on a skidpad, not on a handling track. That speed record isn't testing their handling in any way, shape or form, only their straight line speed and grip on a one-direction corner.
The rear suspension was a disaster of a design, designed in a time when people knew nothing about how to design rear suspensions. The tip in/out behavior is nothing sort of a nightmare on high dynamic cornering.
928 was indeed ugly, but it definitely wasn't poorly made. The GTS models weren't too slow either, but not obviously ZR1 territory.
But saying Corvettes were better built than Porsches is quite simply hilarious
No, no and no.
Just like I said, they do well on a skidpad, not on a handling track. That speed record isn't testing their handling in any way, shape or form, only their straight line speed and grip on a one-direction corner.
The rear suspension was a disaster of a design, designed in a time when people knew nothing about how to design rear suspensions. The tip in/out behavior is nothing sort of a nightmare on high dynamic cornering.
928 was indeed ugly, but it definitely wasn't poorly made. The GTS models weren't too slow either, but not obviously ZR1 territory.
But saying Corvettes were better built than Porsches is quite simply hilarious
You didn't need a ZR-1, you could build a 500hp 350 using all Bowtie parts, or many various aftermarket, and make it ready to compete and win for less than the price of buying the 928 to start off with, then spend the same again to get it on the track. Around town, the performance of neither was completely usable anyway. If there were Autobahn speeds available in the U.S., then the differences between a 928 and a Vette may sway in the 928's favor. In general, it was a poor option in the U.S. market, and the current used market is indicative of it with plenty under $10k and even under $7k for running drivers. Projects are sometimes available for very little. Corvettes on the other hand have retained a far greater proportion of their value typically demanding prices today, higher than those of 928s.
No, no and no.
Just like I said, they do well on a skidpad, not on a handling track. That speed record isn't testing their handling in any way, shape or form, only their straight line speed and grip on a one-direction corner.
The rear suspension was a disaster of a design, designed in a time when people knew nothing about how to design rear suspensions. The tip in/out behavior is nothing sort of a nightmare on high dynamic cornering.
928 was indeed ugly, but it definitely wasn't poorly made. The GTS models weren't too slow either, but not obviously ZR1 territory.
But saying Corvettes were better built than Porsches is quite simply hilarious
I had a 1985 Vette. Very fast, flexible and twitchy. Traded it on a used 1984 928S. Maybe not as fast, but handled better, quiet comfortable and rigid. Vette was expensive to fix. 928 was EXPENSIVE to fix. I'd love to have a 928 GTS. Bought a XKR instead (too heavy to be considered a roadster, but it's a comfortable 4,000lbs convertible).
edit- 1985 vette typoed the year. Both cars the same era.
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My favorite roadster to drive was a 2003 DB-7, good thing it came with a fuel card though because it choaded gas.
Jimmy cooper
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How many times have you floored you car and held it there shortly after starting it and kept it there for quite a time? ( oftentimes improperly warmed up) Does not an aircraft do this on takeoff and climb out? How many air cooled autos have you driven and did you treat them this way? Porsche eventually went to water cooled for this specific reason. What exactly is Extreme ICP? RPM certainly does have an effect on engines especially if they are not properly warmed up.....and many are not, if youve watched carefully at many airports. Then there's the opposite extreme where the idiot sits seemingly forever on a hot day, holding up those behind him , blocking the active.mwhile he acts like an old woman at the checkout in a supermarket, and the engine gets inadequate cooling.
ICP is Inner Cylinder Pressure, it's how hard the flame front is pushing and what creates the push behind the torque. When multiplied by RPM you get Horsepower. When I am pushing a rated 200hp out of a typical 350 cubic inch engine like in a 70s/80s Vette, I'll be doing it around 5200 RPM. When I am pushing 200HP out of a 360 cubic inch aircraft engine, I'm doing it at 2700 RPM. That means each RPM needs to have twice the pressure behind it.
2700 rpm for an aircraft engine is in no way extreme RPMfor a 5 inch piston, in fact, it would prefer to be around 3400rpm, but without gears is limited by prop tip speed.
Aircraft engines live a tougher life, but it is because they run restricted RPM, not extreme RPM. The Porsche Mooney engine was a huge failure.
2700 rpm for an aircraft engine is in no way extreme RPMfor a 5 inch piston, in fact, it would prefer to be around 3400rpm, but without gears is limited by prop tip speed.
Aircraft engines live a tougher life, but it is because they run restricted RPM, not extreme RPM. The Porsche Mooney engine was a huge failure.
Silvaire
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Silvaire
It is? Cause I've never heard of it or seen that formula but if so let Google know because apparently they haven't either.
Dav8or
Final Approach
DeLoreans...
Funny you guys should mention Deloreans. I was returning home from the Bay Area to my house which takes me on this country road that passes through hills and cows and wind mills and I come around the corner and I see a Delorean off the side of the road with the deck lid up and my first thought was- "Oh no! The Flux Capacitor died!!!"
Turns out when I got closer they were just changing a flat tire.
It is? Cause I've never heard of it or seen that formula but if so let Google know because apparently they haven't either.
you have never seen the formula Torque x RPM= Horsepower? What do you think creates the torque? It's the pressure in the combustion chamber pushing on the piston.
Silvaire
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Silvaire
I have but I've never heard of "ICP" or seen it in any formula. I get what you're saying but the pressure in the cylinder is constantly changing so you could only represent it as an instantaneous value.
Back to the original sub-discussion I think it's obvious that what was meant was that an aircraft engine operates at more extreme rpm's in regards to its redline, not the redline of a Mitsubishi Lancer. You mentioned the Porsche powered Mooney. So wouldn't the aircraft mounted engine operate at more extreme conditions than the same relative engine in a 911? I'm sure there are differences but it's a closer example. How about an experimental with a Chevy 350?
It is? Cause I've never heard of it or seen that formula but if so let Google know because apparently they haven't either.
I suspect he is questioning the "inner cylinder pressure" portion of your statement below.
I don't think the flame front is pushing anything, but rather the expansion of all the gasses heated by the flame.
ktup-flyer
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Fiat X1/9 lol. You could get an Elise for ~$20k. That's hard to beat
It's one and the same oxidation event regardless of what you call it.
Yeah, but one number matters for the question of torque/hp and the other doesn't. You can have a beautifully high ICP an engine that knocks and not get any power for it.
Hence the limitations imposed by speed. You can only create so much pressure before you get destructive pressures and forces. Allowing an engine to turn up RPM to make a given HP is easier on the engine, not tougher, because you can reduce the ultimate pressure you have to apply in any given power stroke event because you have more events to divide between.
It requires greater pressure per combustion event to maintain HP while reducing RPM. 3400rpm is way kinder on the jugs than the same HP at 2500rpm. That's why to make more than 350 HP from the 520/540 sized engines, they had to add a gear reduction.
The bolded portions seem contradictory. RPM is a measure of rotational speed, and via conversion of reciprocatory motion to rotational motion via the crankshaft and connecting rods, the piston speed as well.