<NA><RANT> Car stealership </RANT></NA>

WannFly

WannFly

Final Approach
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Priyo
So along with the housing market being completely nutzo, car stealership are at their finest. Low inventory and the frenzy to buy cars have pushed used car prices close to new ones and the stealers have come up with new ways of milking for new cars.

last evening we visited 3 stealerships - the lady needs a car, without going into too much details, its a need not an want.

first, inventory is very low, like there are 3 of those models and we are expecting 4 more sometimes in September 3 of which has been pre-booked

across all 3 places we went, new car prices are anywhere from 3.5-5k over MSRP and new ways to justify that.

1. Protection plan - between $1400 - $1900 - i asked them what that was all about. the reply was, "its a paint protection to ensure paints dont chip or fade". um... thats what clear coat is for...
they didnt even bother to say its a ceramic coating. dont even get me started on "ceramic coating" put on by dealers.

2. $1600 - $1900 - Inspection - not even sure what that is all about. the manufacturers did their QC and inspection

3. Service plan - $900-$1200 - 3 years of full maintenance. I asked what that was, the reply was oil change, all regular max and anything that breaks we fix it. really? oil change is what $40 per change? anything that breaks is covered by bumper to bumper warranty anyway

This is just ridiculous.
 
I remember a time where dealers simply added a line that said: "Additional Dealer Profit" to popular cars - at least it was honest. These days, though, "profit" is a bad word to a lot of people so they have to find other ways to make you think you're getting something that they don't have to actually deliver.

Last time I had a dealer (final step: the "finance office" - even though we were paying cash, which they hate) try and push that kind of carp, I just looked at the guy and said "So all that means you don't build reliable, rust-free cars like you advertise. Wonder if the manufacturer knows that. Maybe I shouldn't buy xxx brand, please hand me the papers to tear up". He backed down very, very quickly, I got the deal we had negotiated, and we drove away in the new vehicle.

The problem you have is that the supply is so tight that it's a dealer's market and they can pretty much force that stuff on you because they know some other sucker will come along at take that last car that hasn't already been booked.

The last car we got - as the pandemic was just picking up - came from CarMax. Buying experience was good, no real crappy stuff like a regular dealer, and the price was fair. We also saved a LOT of money buying it in the next state over which caps certain fees and has lower transaction costs vs the state I live in. It was worth the additional 10 minute drive (their outlet in my state is 20 minutes from my house, this outlet was 30).

Being in a position to walk away makes all the difference in the world. Also, check with your employer (or hers) to see if they have an arrangement with a manufacturer like the X-plan or something.
 
[Car buying rant begins]

Transmission in my mercury is on it's last legs - so bad that the shop didn't charge me for the 90 minutes they spent on the road check and very detailed inspection to figure out what was wrong (slipping, leaking, etc). So I'm off to buy a new car. I do this every 15 years or so. What I want? Red or blue non-electric mustang with a booklet of speeding tickets - I pull one off each week and send it in with a check. No, not a good idea. Let's see what else Ford has (Dad was fleet mgr for Ford in the SW and I spent far too much of my childhood hanging around dealerships). Rats. What I'll settle for is over $45K. Fine. Let's see what the Mazda dealer next door has. Similar or equivalent is under $30K and has Car & Driver 9.5/10 rating. Ok. Dealership has a red one and a blue one. Do the obligatory test drive. Hate the black interior (discussed on another thread) but it's ok. It's a car, that's all I want.

Before I walked in, I had already arranged the financing thru my credit union (only because I can't get a certified check for the entire amount for over a week and need the car now) and away we go. (PS - the car will be paid off before November). Sales rep is worthless and useless. Takes info on a form, runs to the sale mgr. Over and over. This goes on for more than an hour and I'm getting more and more annoyed. Finally at 5:30 pm (3 hrs after I enter the dealership), I get "our finance guy has one more ahead of you, why don't you go have dinner?"

No, I'm leaving, will be back at 10 am tomorrow and if I'm not out at 10:30 with contract, TRP and keys, it's off.

So I leave. Back promptly at 10 am. Ignore everyone in the showroom, head straight to the sales mgr with same statement. Hm. Sales rep never told him what was going on, finance guy doesn't show up until 11 so I tell the sales mgr to call me when they have all the paperwork and are ready to hand me the keys. I leave. Promptly at 10:50 am the finance guy calls - I tell him I'm busy right now, I'll be there when I can.

11:30 back to the dealership. All the paperwork. Ah...arbitration...I refuse. Nope, not allowed. They why the *&&^%( is the option even on the contract? Refused everything else.

12:15, finally out the door except - now I have 2 cars and one driver. Nope, no one at the dealership is available to follow me home, of course I'll bring them back. So I leave the new car parked and go about my business. About 5 pm I get an Uber (everyone I call is either at work or out of town) to get the car. It's parked facing south, in the sun, in 94 F heat. I can't even touch the door handle.

Get it home, park it in the garage. Open the glove compartment to get the 594 page owner's manual. Not there. Only thing there is garbage. At this point I'm tired, aggravated and miserably hot. In the house, call the sales mgr, tell him I want the manual either delivered to me by 9 pm tonight (closes at 8pm ) or UPS it to me by Saturday. We'll see if it's here today.

Fortunately, it's online but that doesn't help me while driving. Candidly, there's really only 10 pages that are needed.

Read over parts of the manual - ah, there's a slot for an SD card for the navigation system. Nope, no SD card anywhere. You think Garmin & Jeppesen are picky about the cards? Nothing compared to Mazda.

Keyless entry. If the tiny little computers in the keyless fob are hosed, so are you. Absolutely no way to open the car door nor start the car. So, I'm in the middle of the moutains in the middle of nowhere Colorado (or Texas or anywhere out west) and the only option is call a Mazda dealer. Gadzooks, I wish I had read the manual before I signed the contract.

14 years ago, cracked engine block - over to the Lincoln-Merc dealer, picked out something on the lot that was ok, I'm out in less than 2 hours and that included the test drive. Definite advantages having Dad's business cards with me. But Mercury product line is gone, and I don't need/want to spend $55K+ on a Lincoln that's really just a fancier Ford (better suspension, plusher interior)

Why does buying a car have to be such a miserable experience? Dad's business depended on repeat customers. Dad's business depended on customers recommending him to friends and family. I sure wouldn't recommend the current approach to car buying to anyone.

Oh yeah, Dad personally delivered the cars to the customer, didn't make them come into the dealership unless they wanted to.

Summary - it's a car. It's transportation. That's it. Handles nice in town, will take it to the mountains on Sunday so see how it goes.

So much for the GPS in the cherokee this year.

At least with a root canal I'm numb.

[end of rant]
 
Car market is crazy right now. When I bought my car in April the sales guy said they were doing trade-ins on year-old models and people were basically getting same money back for their trade-in as they paid for the vehicle year Prior. That’s totally nuts.
 
No haggle pricing.!! Just pay our asking price and we will deliver the car to your door.!! I just love it. I'll explain why later.

Arob16 said:
Car market is crazy right now. When I bought my car in April the sales guy said they were doing trade-ins on year-old models and people were basically getting same money back for their trade-in as they paid for the vehicle year Prior. That’s totally nuts.
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In 2005 I bought a brand new GMC Duramax. 3 years later the dealer was offering me 5k more than I paid for it if I would trade it in for a new one. I still drive the 16 year old GMC, and looks like i will for another 16 years the way prices are going.
 
Bought a car two weeks ago. Nothing crazy, a V6 Camry in a particular trim. Local dealer wanted MSRP+1000 and wouldn't budge on a car that was on his lot for 6 weeks. High volume dealer in NC had the car for 3k less all-in, even after tint and pinstripes I wouldn't have added. Not a great deal but I was sick of commuting in my truck. $250 in one way rental and gas to go pick it up. Had a deal on the same car a year ago for another 2k less.
 
If you're really having buyer regret, I think you can return it within a certain number of days/hours. I seem to remember that being a law in Colorado.
 
If I could buy a car like I buy things at Target or Walmart I would have had more cars. It's such a PITA that I stick with cars longer. My current car I bought used, from a dealer, but found it on Auto Trader. Agreed on a price beforehand. Arrived with a cashiers check, as agreed. It still took HOURS to get out of there. WTF? Had to sit through an obnoxious finance and paperwork guy for far too long long signing a stack of paperwork. I don't care that you aren't happy I'm not getting a loan through you. We agreed to a cash price.

Just ridiculous.

I already dread the next purchase.



Wayne
 
Sorry WannFly and Murphey.

First.... Ceramic coating is indeed a "thing", but I wouldn't have the dealer do it. You can do it yourself. (My LSA picked up a honest 2- 3 knots TAS with Ceramic Coating applied.)

As for the vehicle market - both new and used is in a frenzy. Because of the semiconductor shortage, there is now a shortage of finished vehicles. Add to that the demand in the last 18 months for vehicles, new inventory is at an all-time low and used vehicle pricing is ridiculously high. I work for an IT company to an auto manufacturer and I can say that sales exceed forecast considerably (think sales team and accounting team's collective wet dreams). Almost every vehicle is sold at MSRP or well above the the price printed on the Monroney.

Best to buy what you need and keep it running for as long as you can.

I actually prefer older vehicles for myself since I can work on them and keep them running well. I recently purchased a Jetta Sportwagen TDI (due to fuel prices) from Copart. Yes it has a salvage title, and yes some light body damage and needed some mechanical work (right front axle being the worst of it.) Since I do the work myself, I now have a nifty Jetta diesel wagon that runs great and I spent well under $8K for a vehicle that will run another 200-300K miles. Since I plan to drive it until the wheels fall off, the salvage title doesn't bother me.
 
When supply is constrained, prices go up. I don't have a problem with that.

When price goes up, my buying behavior changes. If I needed a car today, I'd buy an older used car, one that meets my requirements but not much more, to tide me over until the market corrects. At that point, sell the used car and buy what I wanted.

In March 2019, I bought the '18 Mazda3 I've recently discussed on the Mazda thread. I wanted blue with the GT package. Blue isn't one of the more popular colors (black, white, silver, gray) so the two local Mazda dealers didn't have one. I used the search tool on the Mazda website to check inventories within driving distance and found one about 2-1/2 hour drive away. I negotiated the deal via email with the internet sales person. Their price for the car was about $1,000 less than other dealers but they added about $950 in mandatory, and completely useless, dealer add-ons. Whatever. I only cared about the size of the check I'd write. They cut the price to look better on web searches then added it back with these mandatory add-ons. But, they had the car I wanted and the price was what everyone else was charging. That part of the process was straightforward.

At the dealership, I had to wait a couple of hours for the only finance guy on duty. He then gave me all of the ridiculous pitches for worthless add-ons. I think the highest level of extended warranty that he was trying to sell was over $4,000 on a $25,000 car. Hard to tell, exactly, as everything was listed as $xx/mo.

One of the useless options that they required me to buy was a Special Benefits package. It's mostly useless insurance covering things like tire repair, window breakage, etc., which "costs" about $600. Since I had it, I wanted the details so that I could file claims if any of the covered events ever happened. For several weeks I went back and forth with the internet sales person about getting a copy of the paperwork on these special benefits. It wasn't until I told them to either send it to me or send a refund for the $600 I paid for it that they put it in a FedEx envelope and sent it to me.

The other mandatory add-on was a chip that causes your center brake light to strobe when the brakes are applied with moderate, or greater, force. You can buy them yourself for under $20 and install them yourself. They charged about $350 and, of course, installed them on all of their inventory cars as soon as they arrive.

Really don't like all of the games. I don't have to get the lowest price of any customer this month. I just want a reasonable market price and a straightforward buying process. That's another thing that has pushed me to a Tesla for my next car. You order it on their website just like you might order a pizza on Pizza Hut. No games. Go to a Tesla showroom for a test drive and there are no sales tactics or pressure. I've test driven them twice and I've never been pushed, or even asked, for the sale. They answer my questions and let me do what I want to do. I'm sure they'd help me with the order process, if I asked, but otherwise, nothing. So refreshing.

Now, I'm trying to get the two Mazda dealers I've dealt with to stop sending me marketing materials in the mail. I'm very pleased with my two Mazdas but can't stand the dealerships and their games.
 
Everskyward said:
If you're really having buyer regret, I think you can return it within a certain number of days/hours. I seem to remember that being a law in Colorado.
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No regret on the car, just regret that I returned after the first time I left. I don’t work on cars...I do software, not hardware. The cost of repairing/new transmission and other repairs not worth it. Just 5 hours of my life spent being aggravated. No, I didn’t take any of the addons or extended warranties or anything. I know better.
 
Sounds like they discounted the nitrogen-filled tires @ $350 ea so you saved $1,400. I’d take that deal!


Zeldman said:
No haggle pricing.!! Just pay our asking price and we will deliver the car to your door.!! I just love it. I'll explain why later.
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We’ve bought 3 of our last 4 vehicles this way from the same local dealer group. Salesmen are salaried, and salesmen and finance guy both take ‘no thank you’ the first time and move on.

last purchase I pulled out my checkbook to pay in full, and finance guy asked “Don’t you want to put it on your card so you can earn the points?” Um, ok. Probably need to split it over two cards though. “That’s fine.”

maybe they make more off me than the nitrogen tire place, but they really do make it such a much less painful experience, and there is value in that.
 
I was looking at maybe getting a Mach-E. Watched this guys vid yesterday. Unbelievable incompetence and greed these days. He mentions they should go the Tesla route of no dealers but I’ve heard the customer service is just as bad.

My view on pretty much all service related industries these days is that I simply anticipate high cost and subpar service. Generally I’m not let down in that regard. Don’t even get me started on home contractors.
 
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Van Johnston said:
Sounds like they discounted the nitrogen-filled tires @ $350 ea so you saved $1,400. I’d take that deal!




We’ve bought 3 of our last 4 vehicles this way from the same local dealer group. Salesmen are salaried, and salesmen and finance guy both take ‘no thank you’ the first time and move on.

last purchase I pulled out my checkbook to pay in full, and finance guy asked “Don’t you want to put it on your card so you can earn the points?” Um, ok. Probably need to split it over two cards though. “That’s fine.”

maybe they make more off me than the nitrogen tire place, but they really do make it such a much less painful experience, and there is value in that.
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Dealers around here refuse to take credit card over $2500. They don't even bother to check the card limit.
 
Zeldman said:
No haggle pricing.!! Just pay our asking price and we will deliver the car to your door.!! I just love it. I'll explain why later.
Click to expand...

My wife finally allowed a "good" car now that college payments are done (we had been going for 100k mile cars with 'issues' I could solve with a little DIY labor). We had a great no-haggle experience with a dealer in another state, I think it works well. It made the pain of what we had to pay at least a little easier: 12 month old Audi with 10k miles, only $4k below current year MSRP, but Certified Pre-Owned so essentially a four year unlimited mileage bumper to bumper warranty.
 
We never buy new, in fact we’ve never bought a car newer than 4 or 5 years old at the time. Right now I’m driving a 1986 model and Mark is driving a 1991, both German made. We did finally buy something made in the 21st century, a 2002 Chevy Tahoe. What y’all go through with dealerships, no thank you.
 
I look for a new car every 10-12 years or so or when I hit 150k miles.

Do the research, have the cash, walk in and make an offer to the guys I’ve been dealing with for a couple decades. If the sale isn’t done at that amount in 60 minutes, out the door. Hasn’t failed me yet with these guys (or anybody else for that matter). The last one I bought was a leftover new 2016 10% below MSRP with zero percent financing. Put the cash back in the mutual fund and its doing great. So I’m good for another 3-5 years when life might return to more normal.

Cheers.
 
murphey said:
Keyless entry. If the tiny little computers in the keyless fob are hosed, so are you. Absolutely no way to open the car door nor start the car. So, I'm in the middle of the moutains in the middle of nowhere Colorado (or Texas or anywhere out west) and the only option is call a Mazda dealer. Gadzooks, I wish I had read the manual before I signed the contract.
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Are you sure you read the manual?

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It’s all timing. 13 months ago I picked up a new VW Alltrack, 75% of list and 0% financing. They where giving cars away then.
 
X3 Skier said:
Ah, the dreaded read the instruction advice:D

Cheers
Click to expand...
Here’s an interesting tidbit. The Atlas ( the rocket ) training guide for new employees is only 462 pages. It even goes into such detail as the stir welding details of the tanks and the design of various shelves inside the sections of the rocket on which equipment is located. With 594 pages, and another 82 for the “Mazda Connect” system, it’s absurd.
 
asicer said:
Are you sure you read the manual?
snipped for bandwidth.
Click to expand...

Superb! At 594 pages, I’ve only gotten thru the first chapter that describes all the buttons on the front panel.

Continues my aggravation with the dealership that they handed me the keys and that was it. I had to ask where the car was parked.
 
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murphey said:
Here’s an interesting tidbit. The Atlas ( the rocket ) training guide for new employees is only 462 pages. It even goes into such detail as the stir welding details of the tanks and the design of various shelves inside the sections of the rocket on which equipment is located. With 594 pages, and another 82 for the “Mazda Connect” system, it’s absurd.
Click to expand...

Agree. A friend of mine got a Honda Fit a few months ago. Same voluminous type of manual. I did find how to unlock the bloody thing after hunting through several misidentified and misleading references about lock, unlock and key in the useless index before I found how the D*** touchless unlock system works (or doesn’t.)

My Ercoupe POH is about 15 pages long. Things were simpler in 1946:D

Cheers
 
I expect the target reader of the Atlas manual was very different than Mazda’s target reader. Yourself excepted, of course.
 
murphey said:
Continues my aggravation with the dealership that they handed me the keys and that was it. I had to ask where the car was parked.
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Yes, that was a definite failure on their part. An orientation/familiarization tour is a customary and expected service.

Also, I'd bet that the missing SD card for the NAV was the result of a them stealing yours (before it was sold to you) because a previous buyer reported theirs missing. If you go back, I wouldn't be surprised if they stole the SD card out of an unsold unit to give to you.

I wonder if there's any recourse with the dealer's regional management?
 
Van Johnston said:
I expect the target reader of the Atlas manual was very different than Mazda’s target reader. Yourself excepted, of course.
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I wonder how many lawyers were involved with the Atlas vs Mazda. :)
 
asicer said:
Yes, that was a definite failure on their part. An orientation/familiarization tour is a customary and expected service.

Also, I'd bet that the missing SD card for the NAV was the result of a them stealing yours (before it was sold to you) because a previous buyer reported theirs missing. If you go back, I wouldn't be surprised if they stole the SD card out of an unsold unit to give to you.

I wonder if there's any recourse with the dealer's regional management?
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If it was a Ford, I know how to deal with it....like I said, Dad sold Fords for 30 years. Mazdas? Who knows. I need to see if the SD card is in the car. I really didn't want or need the nav system, but it came already installed (and an extra $450) so I'm stuck with it.
 
asicer said:
I wonder how many lawyers were involved with the Atlas vs Mazda. :)
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But all the Mazdas sold the entire year is a pittance of the price of the OFT-2 (Orbital Flight Test #2) later this month.

On the other hand, there are very few computers/chips on the Atlas. Hundreds on the Mazda.
 
asicer said:
Yes, that was a definite failure on their part. An orientation/familiarization tour is a customary and expected service.
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Yes, when I bought my last car in 2012, the salesperson even helped me pair the entertainment system to my phone.

Of course they sold me the wrong car. A week or two later I got an embarrassed call from the salesperson asking me to read her the VIN number physically on the car. It did not match with the paperwork, so I had to return to resign everything. Luckily I didn't have a loan, and had not gotten into an accident, since I gave my insurance company the VIN off the paperwork and not of the actual car.
 
This is mind boggling. WOW!

Everskyward said:
Yes, when I bought my last car in 2012, the salesperson even helped me pair the entertainment system to my phone.

Of course they sold me the wrong car. A week or two later I got an embarrassed call from the salesperson asking me to read her the VIN number physically on the car. It did not match with the paperwork, so I had to return to resign everything. Luckily I didn't have a loan, and had not gotten into an accident, since I gave my insurance company the VIN off the paperwork and not of the actual car.
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Took tons of phone calls but I scored a 2021 Toy 4Runner for my wife last month. Also had to drive to & stay overnight near the dealer. Interesting things: "we can't sell to you, we can only sell to people in our market area" (um I live in the USA, so I am in everyone's market area I thought) and "that other dealer should not have asked for a deposit; that's illegal" (I have no idea on that one).
The price was not jacked that I could tell.
Had to wait 3 weeks or so for it to arrive in port, then get hauled to dealer.
Yeah it was a couple of hours from arrival to departure even though we had a deal with a specific vehicle and paid cash (wow that's two new vehicles now, and both times they took a personal check without the hairy eyeball)

I absolutely checked the vehicle stamped VIN against all the paperwork including the insurance!
 
murphey said:
Here’s an interesting tidbit. The Atlas ( the rocket ) training guide for new employees is only 462 pages. It even goes into such detail as the stir welding details of the tanks and the design of various shelves inside the sections of the rocket on which equipment is located. With 594 pages, and another 82 for the “Mazda Connect” system, it’s absurd.
Click to expand...

This only proves that Astronauts are less litigious than Mazda-driving Karens.
 
Rushie said:
We never buy new, in fact we’ve never bought a car newer than 4 or 5 years old at the time. Right now I’m driving a 1986 model and Mark is driving a 1991, both German made. We did finally buy something made in the 21st century, a 2002 Chevy Tahoe. What y’all go through with dealerships, no thank you.
Click to expand...

Same. I have a 1990 and a 2003, both also German made. Sold my 2008 (additional German car) in 2019 to make some garage space. That was the "fancy" car, along with its possible rod bearing failures and finicky electronics. The remaining cars are better that most anything on the road today, and are probably in better shape than most "used" vehicles as well. I will likely never buy a car from a dealership that isn't my wife's.
 
Zeldman said:
No haggle pricing.!! Just pay our asking price and we will deliver the car to your door.!! I just love it. I'll explain why later.



In 2005 I bought a brand new GMC Duramax. 3 years later the dealer was offering me 5k more than I paid for it if I would trade it in for a new one. I still drive the 16 year old GMC, and looks like i will for another 16 years the way prices are going.
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Lol… Went looking for a new truck a couple of weeks ago, of the two available, one as 20k over list, the other 30k. They had just arrived, and three of us were looking at the same tie. No thanks, I’ll wait.
 
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