(NA) Not a LEO, but. . .

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Sundancer

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Not a LEO, not a lawyer: But cookout recently, with some high school athletes, parents, etc., I heard some horrendously bad advice regarding traffic stops - made me wonder if kids are getting any instruction on this in drivers ed, etc.?

Got my grandson aside and told him:
1. Yeah, you DO have to get out of the car if the LEO says to. And you DO have to stay in the car if he says so. Failing to do so can get you charged.
2. You DO have to identify yourself if you're a passenger and the LEO asks you to
3. Passengers aren't free to go until the LEO says so
3. The LEO CAN detain you and your pax, even handcuff you, if he/she thinks it's necessary, without arresting you.
4. The LEO doesn't have to read you your rights at arrest if he/she isn't questioning you.
5. Passive resisting is still resisting.
6. The LEO can order people away from the immediate area of the stop
7. Put it in park, turn off the engine, turn on the interior lights, roll down the windows, put your hands on the steering wheel. Don't be rooting around for docs as the LEO approaches your car.
8. A LEO has a lot of discretion on traffic stops; act like an adult and maybe get a warning, or fewer citations. You're not gonna get a pass on a DUI.
9. The LEO doesn't know you - you could be Mother Theresa. Or a serial killer...you may KNOW you didn't do anything wrong - what you don't know is your car and occupants matches the sketchy description of a liquor store robber who just shot and killed the store clerk.
10. You aren't being treated like a criminal - you're being treated like an unknown quantity. Ten minutes in cuffs won't kill you - plenty of LEOs have been killed by people NOT in cuffs.
11. If you have a gun in the car don't say "I have a gun!" - try "There is a weapon in the center console."
12. Don't flee or elude. You can escalate a traffic or drug misdemeanor into multiple felonies.
 
For example, what was the ''horrendously bad advice regarding traffic stops''.??
 
I had a big post typed up but deleted it cause it veered into politics. Lets just say my view on cops has soured and theres some stuff in your post i disagree with. 10. 6. 5. 3. 3.

If i had kids i'd tell them be polite, give ID registration, and a simple statement "heading home/to work/school" Admit nothing, deny any car searches if detained ask if free to go. Beyond that leave it up to the lawyers. Dont do a roadside test ask to blow or do a blood test.
 
my list is time tested and significantly shorter:

1) don't break the law
2) don't be a doosh
3) respect authority and your elders

this will keep you out of trouble about 100% of the time. especially #1.
 
Had an argument a few years ago where a guy insisted that cops didn't have the authority to pull you out of the car. The instant I cited the actual case law the room went real quiet.

Bad advice is given out as if it's gospel, and people believe it and get themselves into more trouble. It's sad, really.
 
Sundancer said:
10. You aren't being treated like a criminal - you're being treated like an unknown quantity. Ten minutes in cuffs won't kill you - plenty of LEOs have been killed by people NOT in cuffs
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And here is the issue. Idk what the solution is, but there's decades of bad police experiences towards certain groups affecting how ppl interact with them. There is definitely a real fear that 10 min in cuffs can end in death or injury.


Sundancer said:
2. You DO have to identify yourself if you're a passenger and the LEO asks you to
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This various from state to state. That said, producing ID and then returning no warrants or whatever expedites the encounter.
 
Zeldman said:
For example, what was the ''horrendously bad advice regarding traffic stops''.??
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Most of the stuff I listed - pax can't be detained; you don't have to get out of (or stay in) the car when ordered to do so; if the LEO doesn't read you your rights the charges will be dismissed. You can't be handcuffed unless you're arrested, it's not resisting if you fail to comply, people nearby can't be ordered to step away from the scene; it doesn't matter if the you or the car reeks of weed or alcohol, the LEO can't search it without your permission. Enough that I wonder if the kids are getting better advice in driver's ed or in school. . .
 
Pi1otguy said:
And here is the issue. Idk what the solution is, but there's decades of bad police experiences towards certain groups affecting how ppl interact with them. There is definitely a real fear that 10 min in cuffs can end in death or injury.
Click to expand...

Agree, the history is sketchy. And maybe body cams have helped curb the worst of it. Still, I think once a LEO decides to cuff someone, it's gonna end with them in cuffs, and actively resisting just buys additional charges.
 
2-Bit Speed said:
Had an argument a few years ago where a guy insisted that cops didn't have the authority to pull you out of the car. The instant I cited the actual case law the room went real quiet.

Bad advice is given out as if it's gospel, and people believe it and get themselves into more trouble. It's sad, really.
Click to expand...
Kinda why I'm hoping high schools are teaching at least the basics of interacting with LEOs on the roadside.
 
Sundancer said:
Kinda why I'm hoping high schools are teaching at least the basics of interacting with LEOs on the roadside.
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Isn't that a parenting thing? It is literally "The Talk" that parents give when we near our teen years. It's a survival item like look both ways is
Sundancer said:
Agree, the history is sketchy. And maybe body cams have helped curb the worst of it. Still, I think once a LEO decides to cuff someone, it's gonna end with them in cuffs, and actively resisting just buys additional charges.
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Body cams with accountability are magical. A neighboring PD got body cams and suddenly use of force went down and citizen complaints are nearly zero.
body_cam_results_Rialto_California.0.png


That said, I find adding levity to my police encounters makes more enjoyable. I might as well get something out of the $200-$400 it'll cost me.
 
Sundancer said:
…11. If you have a gun in the car don't say "I have a gun!" - try "There is a weapon in the center console."…..
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I have to ask because I don’t have kids but are parents letting (law abiding) high school kids carry these days? I haven’t checked in a long time but I thought the age was older than that, so not even sure why that came up as a topic. I’m not on the side pushing their agenda on everyone but I know my kids wouldn’t be carrying at least until they’re 18. Feel free to do what you want with your kids.

EDIT: I see it’s 21 in NC
 
eman1200 said:
I have to ask because I don’t have kids but are parents letting (law abiding) high school kids carry these days? I haven’t checked in a long time but I thought the age was older than that, so not even sure why that came up as a topic. I’m not on the side pushing their agenda on everyone but I know my kids wouldn’t be carrying at least until they’re 18. Feel free to do what you want with your kids.

EDIT: I see it’s 21 in NC
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It was a general conversation, not limited to the kids in attendance. Still, probably good advice to keep in mind for when the 18 year olds become 21.
 
Some states draw a distinction between having a handgun and having a long gun wrt age
 
Sundancer said:
Kinda why I'm hoping high schools are teaching at least the basics of interacting with LEOs on the roadside.
Click to expand...

Do high schools even offer driver’s ed anymore? Do those curriculums even go into behaviors during a traffic stop?

This is what we effectively told our kids at that age of their lives, about ten years ago.

1. Stop the car in a safe place as quickly as possible. Turn off the car, turn on the internal light, open the window part way and place your hands on the wheel.
2. Upon request, show police your driver's license, registration and proof of insurance.
3. If an officer asks to look inside your car, you can refuse to consent to the search. But if police believe your car contains evidence of a crime, your car can be searched without your consent.
4. Both drivers and passengers have the right to remain silent. If you are a passenger, you can ask if you are free to leave. If the officer says yes, sit silently or calmly leave. Even if the officer says no, you have the right to remain silent.
5. If the officer is in an unmarked car and not wearing a uniform, call 911 and ask for confirmation you are being lawfully detained.

All the above is backed up in the applicable state law.
 
Pi1otguy said:
Isn't that a parenting thing? It is literally "The Talk" that parents give when we near our teen years. It's a survival item like look both ways is

Body cams with accountability are magical. A neighboring PD got body cams and suddenly use of force went down and citizen complaints are nearly zero.

That said, I find adding levity to my police encounters makes more enjoyable. I might as well get something out of the $200-$400 it'll cost me.
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Concur, on parents first, assuming they know the rules. Body cams - I think there may be TWIN drivers for this result - both the LEOs and the citizens recognize the accountability aspect when it's on video.
 
falconkidding said:
Dont do a roadside test ask to blow or do a blood test.
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I know we're talking about advice you'd give your kid, but since this is an aviation forum, everyone should be reminded that as a pilot, you can not refuse a roadside test.

"As someone with an FAA flight certificate, you also need to understand that you must not refuse a breathalyzer test when an officer requests you to perform one. That is called a “refusal” in legal terminology, and the FAA views that as equivalent to a DUI."
There's a good write-up about it here.
 
2-Bit Speed said:
Had an argument a few years ago where a guy insisted that cops didn't have the authority to pull you out of the car. The instant I cited the actual case law the room went real quiet.

Bad advice is given out as if it's gospel, and people believe it and get themselves into more trouble. It's sad, really.
Click to expand...
You made me curious - found Pennsylvania vs Mimms right away.
 
Lowflynjack said:
I know we're talking about advice you'd give your kid, but since this is an aviation forum, everyone should be reminded that as a pilot, you can not refuse a roadside test
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I think he means set of party tricks like stand on one leg or alphabet backwards.
If you're doing them they've probably decided to arrest minutes ago anyways.
 
Pi1otguy said:
I think he means set of party tricks like stand on one leg or alphabet backwards.
If you're doing them they've probably decided to arrest minutes ago anyways.
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Yep, blow or blood draw only. Doing the monkey dance is a 1 way ticket to DUI arrest imo.
 
At first glance, all are fundamentally true. But...

Sundancer said:
3. The LEO CAN detain you and your pax, even handcuff you, if he/she thinks it's necessary, without arresting you.
Click to expand...

I recall being taught that at the moment your are not free to leave, you are technically under arrest. You may. of course, be "unarrested" if after investigation no "custody arrest" is warranted. It may vary by state, I suppose, or may have changed, but that's what I recall.
 
TCABM said:
3. If an officer asks to look inside your car, you can refuse to consent to the search. But if police believe your car contains evidence of a crime, your car can be searched without your consent.
Click to expand...


In Florida, that only applies to a "wingspan search" for weapons. That is, the area within reach of the driver. Beyond that, any search does in fact require a warrant.

Of note: If arrested, your vehicle may be impounded, and subject to an "inventory search". Any items found in such a search are admissible, IIRC.
 
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FastEddieB said:
In Florida, that only applies to a "wingspan search" for weapons. That is, the area within reach of the driver. Beyond that, any search does in fact require a warrant.

Of note: If arrested, your vehicle may be impounded, and subject to an "inventory search". Any items found is such a search are admissible, IIRC.
Click to expand...

Same in Texas. The big one is dog searches here. Under reasonable suspicion, driver can be detained* while waiting for dog to show up. The dog can walk search the exterior of the vehicle. If it alerts, then a full interior search is fair game.

*not free to leave
 
all of this varies from state to state. check the law in your state. 2 is wrong in a lot of states. for example, in florda 91.151 states,
Whenever any law enforcement officer of this state encounters any person under circumstances which reasonably indicate that such person has committed, is committing, or is about to commit a violation of the criminal laws of this state or the criminal ordinances of any municipality or county, the officer may temporarily detain such person for the purpose of ascertaining the identity of the person temporarily detained and the circumstances surrounding the person’s presence abroad which led the officer to believe that the person had committed, was committing, or was about to commit a criminal offense.
so, unless he has RAS that the passenger had committed,was commtting, or was about to commit a criminal offense, the passenger has no legal obligation to identify. the part that makes it sticky, is that the officer is not required to state that RAS on the scene, only in a court of law. just because he/she want to id passenger does not fly legally.
in texas it even stricter, 38.02 only requires a passenger to id if they have been lawfully arrested.
there are exceptions to these laws of course. immigration, border patrol, and fbi are under different laws.

as to fast eddiebs post, no there are only two types of encounters between the public and law enforcement. consentual encounters, and detainment. they can talk to you freely about anything as long as you agree and are free to leave, if you are not free to leave, then your are being detained and the officer must have RAS to detain you for investigation. start reading with (terry v ohio) they do not need probable cause, that is a higher level and that is what they need to arrest you. so being detained is not under arrest, but you are not free to leave, and the best course is your fifth amendment right, shut up.
 
You’re right as far as detention being different from arrest. Either things have changed over the last 40+ years or I’m misremembering. I did find this on a Cornell Law website:

In the motor vehicle context, a police officer may detain a vehicle pending inquiry into a vehicular violation regardless of whether criminal activity is suspected. There is no bright light line between a detention and an arrest—courts will often look to a variety of factors in determining whether either has occurred during an interaction with police.

It can be difficult for cops. You’ve detained someone on reasonable suspicion. They say “F you!” and begin to walk away. How much force can he or she use to “detain” someone who is merely under suspicion?
 
FastEddieB said:
It can be difficult for cops. You’ve detained someone on reasonable suspicion. They say “F you!” and begin to walk away. How much force can he or she use to “detain” someone who is merely under suspicion?
Click to expand...

Yep.

Cop says, “Why are your clothes all bloody?”
Suspect says, “Am I free to leave?”
Cop says, “And what are you doing in a Circle K parking lot at 1 a.m.?”
Suspect says, “Am I free to leave?”
And so on...​

What next?

SWMBO knew a veterinarian years ago who had to do some sort of emergency surgery on an animal late one evening. He stopped at a convenience store on the way home, after midnight, with blood all over his clothes. The clerk asked if there had been an accident, and the doc just gave a sly grin and said “No.” Then he laughed and walked out.

Might have been an interesting encounter with a cop.
 
Simple thing is to not be a D-head. Be polite, do as asked, no raised voice, no yelling and act truly concerned as to the reason for the traffic stop. Ask questions. Instead of some smart A question, ask something along the lines of what could/should I have done instead....

Seems like when I watch video of someone not surviving a traffic stop that person is disruptive, disobedient, fighting, trying to run and usually has outstanding warrants. After a few videos I think I will try to be obedient and polite instead.

Remember, police deal with the bottom of the barrel of the human race daily. They don't know if they are about to deal with Charles Manson or the Dalai Lama, so after while, sadly, they will suspect the worse of everyone.
 
FastEddieB said:
…
It can be difficult for cops. You’ve detained someone on reasonable suspicion. They say “F you!” and begin to walk away. How much force can he or she use to “detain” someone who is merely under suspicion?
Click to expand...
Concur and it’s generally a thankless job. On use of force to detain while conducting an investigation, which is every nonconsensual LEO encounter, not only does state law provide boundaries, but so does department policy in addition to case law.

The takeaway for me is that just like there’s no telling if the pilot in the FBO just soloed or just completed the 20000th hour of dual given, has 480 type ratings, and taught the Wright Brothers how to fly, the same thing applies to LEOs; you have no idea what you’re going to get so the best course if action is to be polite, only provide the bare minimum information legally required when demanded, and other than that, keep your trap shut.

You have zero legal obligation to further the investigation.
 
TCABM said:
The takeaway for me is that just like there’s no telling if the pilot in the FBO just soloed or just completed the 20000th hour of dual given, has 480 type ratings, and taught the Wright Brothers how to fly, the same thing applies to LEOs; you have no idea what you’re going to get so the best course if action is to be polite, only provide the bare minimum information legally required when demanded, and other than that, keep your trap shut.
Click to expand...

You also have no way of knowing what the officer was doing ten minutes ago. Maybe he responded to a small fender-bender where no one was hurt. Maybe it was a massive wreck with two dead bodies and three people heading for intensive care.
 
I knew one of those "Sovereign Citizens" with a prestigious law degree. Last time I met him, he was playing the piano in the bar of a Love Boat cruise liner. He could not go ashore in any American port for fear of arrest, there were numerous warrants, mostly Federal.

What a life.

Senator Barkley, from Kentucky, did not think the income tax was
Constitutional, and refused to pay. As head of the committee that acted on the IRS budget, he stone walled them until he died. His fine horse farm was seized, and is now called "Greater Cincinnati Regional Airport".

That did not hurt him, just his heirs.

I was born close enough to that farm to see his horses from the side fence. Since then, I have landed on "Barkly's Horse Farm".
 
Really want to wind the cops up, haul dummy ordinance. Friend was stopped for fuel while hauling a Mk 17 full weight hydrogen bomb case. Kid asked if he was hauling a bomb on the trailer. Told him yep, a nuke.... 15 minutes later the gas station was surrounded by every badged officer in the county. Took a bit to subdue the freakout level, and him to get back on the road.
 
2-Bit Speed said:
You also have no way of knowing what the officer was doing ten minutes ago. Maybe he responded to a small fender-bender where no one was hurt. Maybe it was a massive wreck with two dead bodies and three people heading for intensive care.
Click to expand...

There’s a hauntingly sad song by James McMurtry called “Holiday”. It has a verse about a Highway Patrolman and a wreck. The final verse about the Iowa Guardsman is especially poignant. Worth a listen.

 
eman1200 said:
my list is time tested and significantly shorter:

1) don't break the law
2) don't be a doosh
3) respect authority and your elders

this will keep you out of trouble about 100% of the time. especially #1.
Click to expand...

I actually think #1 is functionally impossible, by design.

The other two should be more common than they are.
 
Craig said:
Really want to wind the cops up, haul dummy ordinance. Friend was stopped for fuel while hauling a Mk 17 full weight hydrogen bomb case. Kid asked if he was hauling a bomb on the trailer. Told him yep, a nuke.... 15 minutes later the gas station was surrounded by every badged officer in the county. Took a bit to subdue the freakout level, and him to get back on the road.
Click to expand...
In pre-TSA days, I had an oscilloscope as my carry-on for a tech-support trip, and a kid approached me in the waiting area of the airline gate with fear in his eyes and asked me, "Is that a bomb?" Fortunately, I was smart enough to give him a straight answer!

By the way, how did your friend happen to be hauling a dummy nuke?
 
Palmpilot said:
In pre-TSA days, I had an oscilloscope as my carry-on for a tech-support trip, and a kid approached me in the waiting area of the airline gate with fear in his eyes and asked me, "Is that a bomb?" Fortunately, I was smart enough to give him a straight answer!

By the way, how did your friend happen to be hauling a dummy nuke?
Click to expand...

We were moving it from Los Alamos to our museum in Fort Worth. It was to be part of the B-36 exhibit there.
 
Craig said:
Really want to wind the cops up, haul dummy ordinance. Friend was stopped for fuel while hauling a Mk 17 full weight hydrogen bomb case. Kid asked if he was hauling a bomb on the trailer. Told him yep, a nuke.... 15 minutes later the gas station was surrounded by every badged officer in the county. Took a bit to subdue the freakout level, and him to get back on the road.
Click to expand...

A friend's Dad was a civil engineer. He was traveling by airline with a device to measure the moisture content of soil. You put in a measure amount of soil, some carbide powder, then sealed the sphere with a steel ball inside. The carbide reacted to the moisture, and created carbide gas, and you measured the pressure to determine the amount of moisture.

The device has a fancy scientific name, but most people call it a "bomb."

Yeap, security asked him what was in his luggage and he responded, "Nothing, just a bomb."

That took a while to sort out. :D
 
Just be respectful and the LEO will respond in kind. They have a crappy job to do and often deal with the dregs of society. I was recently stopped for not stopping at a stop sign leaving a convenience store. There was no stop sign. He knew it and I knew it. While he was running my driver’s license, his partner and I had a conversation about my job since I’d answered the question of “Are you just getting off of work?” It was 1030pm. I told them that I was on my way to work. He then asked where I worked and what I did. Then it became became a question of stress level where he thought my job was stressful and I countered that his job was more so. Then the first guy came back and gave me my license back and told me to have a good night. Quite a pleasant experience really.
 
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