[NA] Job opp. weird situation [NA]

Caramon13 said:
Yeah 40% is no joke. It would help out a lot right now actually. Even if I quit after 2 years, the financial impact I could make in that short time would be significant.
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Plus, it's nice for the job after that one too. The next employer will be more willing to pay you above that to get you to come onboard with them, than if you are still at the current salary.
 
Caramon13 said:
And cancelling my vacation is definitely NON negotiable, new job or not.
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Please don't ever say that in the workplace. That **** ass attitude will get you a much longer vacation than you'll ever want.

Why not take the money and have a 40% better vacation in six months?

Good luck.
 
Caramon13 said:
I've been told that there's a possibility that if I don't start immediately or SOON, that I risk losing the opportunity to someone who CAN start earlier.
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For me, this is pretty telling. If the company really wants you, they will work with your schedule and allow you to extend the professional courtesy to your existing company to provide notice and sufficient time to transition your role.

What their response is telling me (provided you understood it properly as you've written above) is that the new company sees you as a commodity, so they'll just plug you r or someone else into the role, get their value out of you in terms of work product.

Sometimes money is just that... money. But it doesn't buy happiness, work life balance, etc. Weigh your options carefully, but I would advise the new company that, "...as a 3 year employee, you have significant responsibilities to transition to a new company and would like 2 weeks to perform that transition as a professional courtesy. " They should understand that. If not, then you know they're going to make you jump through hoops if you take the job.
 
Caramon13 said:
I've been stressing about this lately and I need some input from complete strangers. You know..because that's what people normally do when they have to make a critical life decision, base a decision on the feedback of people you've never met :).

Good news:

I'm interviewing for a job about an hour away and it pays about 30-40% more than what I make now. That's major.

Bad news:
1 - Not sure about the company or the people.
2 - If an offer comes in, I'd have to take it immediately because:
My boss goes on vacation for two weeks at the end of next week, so I'd be giving her notice a few days before she leaves and then basically not seeing her again...ever.
My notice would consist of a week, not two.
I have vacation right after her so I'd want to start work before I leave on vacation to "break it in".

I've been with the company I work at now for almost 3 years, I'm pretty invested in it. And it seems like a pretty jerk move to quit right before the boss goes on vacation (personal not business).

I've been told that there's a possibility that if I don't start immediately or SOON, that I risk losing the opportunity to someone who CAN start earlier.

So, do I take the job if offered and live with the burned bridge of a ****ed off boss, or do I risk the job entirely and say no, can't start till end of July when we're both back?

....decisions...decisions...of course all of this is contingent on an offer, which I'm about 75% will happen.
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Your boss would can you on Christmas Eve and screw you out of banked vacation/sick time if it suited the "needs of the business."

Go for the better opportunity.
 
Ravioli said:
You can split the baby.

Accept the new job with a start date "on or before" [date]. Then resign your current position as of [date] and request to be released earlier if that does not impede their priorities.

It's admirable that you are concerned with your former employer, but for everyone who thinks they must do the "two week notice" there is someone who was told "we won't won't need you, clean off your desk"
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IOW, "You can't quit. You're fired. Hit the raod.
 
Anthony said:
^^^^^This is very important. Crappy cultures usually have crappy management. Bad bosses can make your life MISERABLE.
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The culture where I work is vastly different then I thought it was when I was hired on. They did a really good job of masking the red tape and bad management. One guy I interviewed with said he hated his job, I probably should have taken that more seriously.

I feel like I almost need a complete career/field change to get into a different culture. Most of the companies that want to hire me on end up being the same story, different place.
 
Ravioli said:
Please don't ever say that in the workplace. That **** ass attitude will get you a much longer vacation than you'll ever want.

Why not take the money and have a 40% better vacation in six months?

Good luck.
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Nah I'd never say that in the workplace. That comment was directed at the presumption that the new job would ask me to cancel my vacation and start early. I'm a workaholic, but I need to put my family first in this situation. It's been over 3 years since my last substantial vacation. I've never taken a sick day and I put in at least 60 hours a week, many times quite a bit more.

My wife has a very tricky schedule. I have a very small window each year to actually take a vacation, otherwise its a no go.
 
Caramon13 said:
Nah I'd never say that in the workplace. That comment was directed at the presumption that the new job would ask me to cancel my vacation and start early. I'm a workaholic, but I need to put my family first in this situation. It's been over 3 years since my last substantial vacation. I've never taken a sick day and I put in at least 60 hours a week, many times quite a bit more.

My wife has a very tricky schedule. I have a very small window each year to actually take a vacation, otherwise its a no go.
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Maybe your wife needs a different job.
 
Caramon13 said:
I've been stressing about this lately and I need some input from complete strangers. You know..because that's what people normally do when they have to make a critical life decision, base a decision on the feedback of people you've never met :).

Good news:

I'm interviewing for a job about an hour away and it pays about 30-40% more than what I make now. That's major.

Bad news:
1 - Not sure about the company or the people.
2 - If an offer comes in, I'd have to take it immediately because:
My boss goes on vacation for two weeks at the end of next week, so I'd be giving her notice a few days before she leaves and then basically not seeing her again...ever.
My notice would consist of a week, not two.
I have vacation right after her so I'd want to start work before I leave on vacation to "break it in".

I've been with the company I work at now for almost 3 years, I'm pretty invested in it. And it seems like a pretty jerk move to quit right before the boss goes on vacation (personal not business).

I've been told that there's a possibility that if I don't start immediately or SOON, that I risk losing the opportunity to someone who CAN start earlier.

So, do I take the job if offered and live with the burned bridge of a ****ed off boss, or do I risk the job entirely and say no, can't start till end of July when we're both back?

....decisions...decisions...of course all of this is contingent on an offer, which I'm about 75% will happen.
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To me it is a no brainer, take the new position.
 
Are you an IT professional, an licensed professional, or a janitor?

That would give us a better understanding. I worked in IT for years and that is a 'make-it-while-you-can' situation with in demand skills.

I owned my own company while a friend of mine took me to a mixer that promised to pay me more. I liked working for myself. That being said, have you considered working for yourself?
 
John221us said:
When I hire people, I would never expect them not to give two weeks notice, as I would not want them to do that to me..
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Amen to that. I've been the same way with the hiring I've done over the past few decades. On the flip side, I'd be leery of a place that was so desperate that they wouldn't allow me to give proper notice to my existing employer.
 
Ravioli said:
Please don't ever say that in the workplace. That **** ass attitude will get you a much longer vacation than you'll ever want.
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I've said it. Some of us have other people who've planned to go also, and it's not optional to screw them (especially family) for ANY job, new or old.

Plus, the culture of vacations in 'merica blows. I've got friends who work in Australia who see a *minimum* of ten weeks off paid a year and their companies compete ABOVE that for quality employees. It can be done. Requires proper planning and teamwork.

American companies can suck it when they do silly crap like offer two weeks a year to new employees after they have two or even three decades of experience. Not appropriate. Never has been.

My employers know very clearly up front that just to do two things I do every year, that's a two week minimum and they're not optional. And they happen on specific dates. Hire me or don't, that's the deal. I'll go unpaid if that's the message they want to send to me.

If I wanted a job with no vacation time, I'd just start my own business. If I'm getting my work done and usually more and managing how the time off will be properly covered, they've got nothing to complain about.

I did my years of "We're a startup. Keep your phone on while you're on vacation." Efffff that. You want that it's REALLY expensive now. Pay up front. I know where that sort of bad management leads at a startup now.

Staff appropriately and cross train the team appropriately. I'll happily cover for Bob when he finds himself in a "family" bind of his own.

Of course this last year has been a total shocker. My employer literally said "work what you want to work and track your time". Somehow I earned that and still feel like I owe them for a while for that opportunity. Very close to being an independent contractor this last year. Learned some stuff and enjoying it. Almost an unheard of management style in 'Merica.

(Mostly learned that I'm way better at project and time mamagement than I thought I was. Haha. It's been fun. Like a true independent, if I need bucks, I have to communicate a plan and commit to doing it. And then whatever it takes to get it done. Very fun. Got a lot of things done, too.)

But no, my vacations aren't optional anymore. Played that game in my 20s. Didn't get me anywhere. They also quickly learn I'm the guy with no kids, so no kid emergencies, can do the late night stuff, and pretty much am available when I'm NOT on vacation, 24/7. They get plenty of value out of me by respecting my scheduled vacations.
 
paflyer said:
Maybe your wife needs a different job.
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Yeah..she would agree with you on that point as well. She's been at the same place now for about 16 years and she even got a pay increase one or two of those years...:(.
 
So...not much of an update today. Recruiter said he'd hear back on Thursday..didn't. So he said he'd DEFINITELY hear back today. Nothing so far.

Honestly, I'm not holding out much hope at this point, but hey that's ok.

@denverpilot You either must work in a really specialized field or just have a ton of experience. Every job I've had since I got into the job market has been 2-3 weeks at start.

One and only one job offered a 7 week sabbatical but that was only if you had been there for 7 years. I missed out on that perk by about 6 months when I quit.

It's harder than I thought to cram in the usual time off with only 80 hours a year to spend. And..we get it split. I can only take a week off (40 hours) up until July, then I get another week opened to me after that time period.

Maybe I need to move to Australia? :)
 
Caramon13 said:
@denverpilot You either must work in a really specialized field or just have a ton of experience. Every job I've had since I got into the job market has been 2-3 weeks at start.

....

Maybe I need to move to Australia? :)
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Oh I was saying U.S. companies blow in this regard. Whether or not one can negotiate higher is, like you said, a matter of experience and what not. And the creeping crud of "The HR Department(TM) - A Division of Corporate Legal(TM)... says 'everything must be fair or we will be sued..." usually kills anything you can negotiate. But it's worth trying.

Agreed. Other than everything that crawls being incredibly poisonous, Oz is kinda neat. Their mandatory "holidays" are awesome. People whine that Americans don't travel internationally much... well, duh... when you lose at least a day to jet lag and only have a couple of weeks a year? Screw it... just drive to the lake and go fishing.
 
Ravioli said:
Please don't ever say that in the workplace. That **** ass attitude will get you a much longer vacation than you'll ever want.

Why not take the money and have a 40% better vacation in six months?

Good luck.
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This is BS. I agree with @denverpilot if that company can't respect that you need to take certain times off then I sure as hell will never work there.

Work/life balance. There's plenty of companies out there, but it's YOUR family and YOUR life.
 
denverpilot said:
Oh I was saying U.S. companies blow in this regard. Whether or not one can negotiate higher is, like you said, a matter of experience and what not. And the creeping crud of "The HR Department(TM) - A Division of Corporate Legal(TM)... says 'everything must be fair or we will be sued..." usually kills anything you can negotiate. But it's worth trying.

Agreed. Other than everything that crawls being incredibly poisonous, Oz is kinda neat. Their mandatory "holidays" are awesome. People whine that Americans don't travel internationally much... well, duh... when you lose at least a day to jet lag and only have a couple of weeks a year? Screw it... just drive to the lake and go fishing.
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Nate,

Granted I'm in a different field/situation than you but when HR entered the equation I gave up submitting applications and began networking in my field of expertise. Knowing who's looking for certain skills makes life easier. Way back in the sixties the common excuse was the need to hire based on what is now called "diversity". An interview I had back then ended with me telling the interviewer where he could put his offer. From that point things just seemed to get worse. Offers were not based on nor compensated for qualifications but had to qualify with federal law.

It's probably easier for experienced A&P's than IT types. Aviation being a rather small community reputation seems to precede you and qualify one better than what HR seems to be looking for. My last three jobs were sealed over lunch and with handshake. In fact, my last employer offered me a job before I was considering moving. Times change, and sometimes the conditions accompanying them are hard to accept. I would like to see the return of job offers be based on merit.

My two cents worth.
 
denverpilot said:
Oh I was saying U.S. companies blow in this regard. Whether or not one can negotiate higher is, like you said, a matter of experience and what not. And the creeping crud of "The HR Department(TM) - A Division of Corporate Legal(TM)... says 'everything must be fair or we will be sued..." usually kills anything you can negotiate. But it's worth trying.

Agreed. Other than everything that crawls being incredibly poisonous, Oz is kinda neat. Their mandatory "holidays" are awesome. People whine that Americans don't travel internationally much... well, duh... when you lose at least a day to jet lag and only have a couple of weeks a year? Screw it... just drive to the lake and go fishing.
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Most people only "get" 10 days off and a lot don't even take that out of fear.
 
paflyer said:
Most people only "get" 10 days off and a lot don't even take that out of fear.
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Damn this makes me feel lucky. I get 20 days a year PTO plus 8 holidays. Here if we don't use them then we lose them.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
This is BS. I agree with @denverpilot if that company can't respect that you need to take certain times off then I sure as hell will never work there.

Work/life balance. There's plenty of companies out there, but it's YOUR family and YOUR life.
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Work/Life balance... boo hoo. I'm crying for ya.

Sorry people, when applicants come in for interviews and are concerned about the number of holidays, sick leave, family leave, fill in the blank leave. I can't work on Saturday because of ___. That's the actual BS.

If you've got the mother of all vacations scheduled (which is Osh the last week of July) then DONT GO INTERVIEWING until you get back. How hard is that?

And I usually give @denverpilot a wide berth... but the Killer, gotta be there, every year, don't bother asking me to interrupt it vacation... Ah, he's not going this year.
 
Ravioli said:
Work/Life balance... boo hoo. I'm crying for ya.

Sorry people, when applicants come in for interviews and are concerned about the number of holidays, sick leave, family leave, fill in the blank leave. I can't work on Saturday because of ___. That's the actual BS.

If you've got the mother of all vacations scheduled (which is Osh the last week of July) then DONT GO INTERVIEWING until you get back. How hard is that?

And I usually give @denverpilot a wide berth... but the Killer, gotta be there, every year, don't bother asking me to interrupt it vacation... Ah, he's not going this year.
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I sure am glad I do not and will never work for you. I do hope you are not in charge of any employees.

I also wouldn't go putting words in @denverpilot 's mouth(fingertips?). AFAIK he isnt going due to issues other than work telling him he cant go.

It sounds like the OP wasn't presented with the option to necessarily go interview after his vacation.
 
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One option. Ask your employer if he can match your pay offer from the other company. Thing is, if you do that, you pretty much have to leave if he can't. Well maybe not.
 
If I got offered a good job I would be happy with and a big pay increase I would get up and walk straight the hell out of here! I would give a 5 minute notice. But I have been at the same job 25 years and just fed up with stupid crap.
 
Are you accounting for increased travel cost of the commute and after taxes? How much more really will you end up with?

I did the non negotiable vacation thing. But I was in a position of negotiating strength, in other words, demand for me was high and supply of me was short. For you, it depends on the market for your talent. If there is a lot of competition then they indeed may be able to get someone else easily if you don't comply with their schedule.

If I were faced with this I would want to more information. More about the culture as others mentioned, and more about the long term security of the position. I would have to examine the numbers very closely for any hidden costs (more meals out because of hours? Different dress code? More babysitter cost? Benefit comparison of course) if the money is too good to be true there might be a hidden reason. The headhunter involvement has me a tad suspicious I'd make sure there aren't any misleading implications. I'd want to visit the place and talk to employees there.
 
Caramon13 said:
I've never taken a sick day and I put in at least 60 hours a week, many times quite a bit more.
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I am not sure if you are getting paid for the extra time. I work way to many hours myself and I don't get paid for overtime. I understand the mentality and the desire to exceed requirements. My advise is not to do that when you start a new job. Let them know you will go above and beyond when needed, but work a more normal schedule when you start out. As the years pile up, I am trying to figure out ways to be more efficient. The total hours don't mean as much as work completed.

Just an FYI on trying leverage an offer into a raise at your current job. There are companies that absolutely refuse to negotiate. If you go to your current employer with an outside offer, make sure you are ready and willing to take that offer. I have worked for several companies that would shake your hand and wish you well in your new position.
 
Ravioli said:
Work/Life balance... boo hoo. I'm crying for ya.

Sorry people, when applicants come in for interviews and are concerned about the number of holidays, sick leave, family leave, fill in the blank leave. I can't work on Saturday because of ___. That's the actual BS.

If you've got the mother of all vacations scheduled (which is Osh the last week of July) then DONT GO INTERVIEWING until you get back. How hard is that?

And I usually give @denverpilot a wide berth... but the Killer, gotta be there, every year, don't bother asking me to interrupt it vacation... Ah, he's not going this year.
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Probably has something to do with a more important trip. More than one actually. Airplanes come behind family.

Mtns2Skies said:
I sure am glad I do not and will never work for you. I do hope you are not in charge of any employees.

I also wouldn't go putting words in @denverpilot 's mouth(fingertips?). AFAIK he isnt going due to issues other than work telling him he cant go.

It sounds like the OP wasn't presented with the option to necessarily go interview after his vacation.
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I wouldn't worry about @Ravioli. Somebody has to think work is more important than anything. Might as well be the young ones who haven't watched an ******* boss say similar things to a man who's family does actually need him.

He'll mellow once he's seen a man leave work for a year and his friends cover him because his kid who's not yet three is diagnosed with terminal cancer. Or he covers for a coworker diagnosed with a rare lung problem for a year. Or a coworker's special needs kid is tossed out of a third or fourth or fifth after school program and everyone's lost count but everyone helps cover him.

Seen all of that, and more. Work isn't more important than family. Never will be.

But it takes most people about twenty years to figure that out.

And sometimes when you're broke, taking the job *is* for the family. But when you're not, the job is always second.

If I get unlucky and die at the same age my dad did, I've got less than twenty years left. If I have slightly more luck, I'll live as old as my grandfather and it'll be fifty more with ten of those hanging out ten years after everyone I ever knew was dead.

Life's short. When applicants come in with questions about time off for kids or vacations or whatever, they have a good reason to be asking.

If you don't know that, you're not ready to lead them. Not at all.

One of my current co-worker's kids is a special needs kid. She has trouble walking. She fell and broke her jaw. She's right I think. Kid is tougher than all of us combined.

I've got the 80-hour weeks for years badge from a startup. It was fun. For a while. It was good money for the age group. It ended up being worthless long-term. Short-term it was fine. A means to an end.

Not the end that was promised. The guys I did it for eventually pocketed $3M each after they laid all of us off. Not mad about it, but I learned where their true loyalties lie.

They're nice enough guys but if they ever needed my help again, they know cash on the barrelhead is all that I will accept now. And two specific vacations on my dates that I take every year I can, per year, is the minimum. Paid or not. They'd be fine with that. They know what they did.

That was all long ago. They've called twice since then needing my assistance. The rate was $150/hr travel/drive time included, and they didn't balk at paying the invoice. I also told them where to find talented people to do the stuff, cheaper. I'm not a jerk. $150 is cheap for fixing the problems and playing headhunter for them.

Need it today? It'll cost you. I'm around. The guys I refer need the job. They'll stick around. They also know I've warned those guys not to believe pie in the sky promises.

They've done better at their later ventures and learned from their leadership mistakes too. I'm even a customer through a strange set of circumstance. It helps in knowing how they like to write their service contracts. Helps a lot actually. Their company structure still has the same problems it had almost two decades ago with a different masthead and different staff. It also has some distinct advantages and they're doing pretty good.

There's no seven degrees of separation in this town when it comes to my type of work. More like three, max. That has disadvantages for some and advantages for others. For me, it's just business as usual. I troubleshoot. That's what I do. I can troubleshoot your systems or your people or a combination. But you have to want it fixed.

Usually they just want the systems fixed. And that's fine by me. It pays well enough for me and is a lot less headaches.
 
Caramon13 said:
Yeah 40% is no joke. It would help out a lot right now actually. Even if I quit after 2 years, the financial impact I could make in that short time would be significant.

I know I can't plan around when things come in, I guess I just wish I could take this through the SAME cycle I've used for all the other jobs I've left. Seems unprofessional to me to just quit same day and walk out...but I get that sometimes the employer wants exactly that. My father gave his employer notice that he was retiring recently, employer asked for 3 months then came back and said I only need one.

Wife works close to home, I get the feeling my hours would NOT be flexible. Especially with hard deadlines. I'd probably leave around 6 as well, wouldn't be able to leave the office until about 6 PM at night (commute during rush hour sucks too in that area).

I'd like to move closer to that area, but things are a bit tight right now and I don't think I could just pack up and move everyone without a little cushion, so I'm stuck where I am. I KNOW I'm going to hate the commute over time...
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There is no going back to a lower paying job you like more. I've tried it. Your budget expands to consume your income, you'll be hurting bad if you ever get a job for less money. JME
 
I'm still here heh...last time I talked to the recruiter was Thursday. Black hole ever since then. I left him a voicemail early this morning, sent an email after and just now left another voicemail.

So he's either ignoring me, has nothing to tell me, or maybe he's the one who hit the PA in the GPS scam thread.

Either way at this point I think it looks like I'm going to be continuing my employment here with my original job.
 
Caramon13 said:
I'm still here heh...last time I talked to the recruiter was Thursday. Black hole ever since then. I left him a voicemail early this morning, sent an email after and just now left another voicemail.

So he's either ignoring me, has nothing to tell me, or maybe he's the one who hit the PA in the GPS scam thread.

Either way at this point I think it looks like I'm going to be continuing my employment here with my original job.
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Or just a typical flaky recruiter. Headhunting is such a strange game.
 
denverpilot said:
Or just a typical flaky recruiter. Headhunting is such a strange game.
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Yeah, I really prefer dealing with the company's HR directly. At least they give you a "bugger off" email once they've decided to move on. I'd be ok with such an email from the recruiter..or anything. But just dropping off the map seems rather lame..
 
Caramon13 said:
@TCABM

5. Recruiter. Is this an internal recruiter for the prospective company or is this an outside headhunter. How did they find you? What's their reason for pitching the position to you?

Outside headhunter, found me via LinkedIn or something. It started out as a "hey, if you know anyone that does this" (like they all do) and after I looked at it thought, hey might as well take a chance.
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I trust headhunters about as far as I can spit....
 
Caramon13 said:
Are you talking about Mackinac Island? If so, it does look nice indeed. I don't think I've ever been to Michigan
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Same place, lazy way of spelling it. No cars allowed on the island, horses aplenty. Tourist trap to be sure, but a beautiful place to visit. It's pronounced Mackinaw. Another French named place. No services at the airport on the island but it's just a short hop away for fuel.
 
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