NA HVAC brand quality check

Let'sgoflying!

Let'sgoflying!

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
Feb 23, 2005
Messages
20,872
Location
west Texas
Display Name
Display name:
Dave Taylor
Being offered a ComfortMaker by the local HVAC contractor. This is a heat pump with heat strips. "10 year warranty" but I need to find out specifically what that covers.

Any vociferous objection to the brand? I am told CM is actually a Carrier relabeled.

Also, what questions should I ask before agreeing to the install?
It is to replace a Trane, I think. All electric; heat pump and heat strips.
It will replace the cond/evap, air handler, thermostat but he won't be doing anything with the ducts/wiring/pipes.
 
Never heard of it, but talking with our HVAC folks a while back, there was a major consolidation in the biz and tons of brands are made in the same few plants. Big conglomerates own it all now.
 
They've been around a while, they got bought out by Carrier (United Technologies) a while back
 
Depends on grade/model. You can get a builders model or you can get high seer unit that rocks. I had a comfort maker at my beach place in salt water environment and lasted 13 years. Original compressor and original everything until the collection unit and coil finally gave up. I replaced with a carrier unit due to carrier offering rebates on certain seer units.

Major consolidation and there are just a couple mfgs building for the various lines.
 
what are the price points and associated benefits for the Carriers or CMs typically? 3 ton unit.
 
How long are you going to stay in the house ?

I had a 2ton 17SEER Carrier unit installed maybe 18 months ago. It uses a 'communicating' thermostat that just uses the wire to talk back and forth between three separate computers (thermostat, indoor, outdoor). It took several service visits to stop the unit from saying 'communication error' and shutting everything down at 2am. In retrospect, I should have gone with a 16SEER conventional controlled dual-speed compressor system.

The payback between 14, 16 or 17 SEER takes a very long time. Little downside to going lower if that gets you a simpler system.
 
ha, that was my next Q.

We are presented with SEER & HPSF but no way to translate that into "100$ less per month in energy costs" or similar.
 
I sell Goodman and American Standard. Goodman is now owned by Daikin from Japan. They are putting $410M+ into the Houston plant. They are about the only one that has not off-shored jobs to Mexico for assembly. Like all others, they assemble with mostly parts from Mexico and China. I would recommend not going with the base model and not going above 15 SEER if you prefer simple and cheaper to repair. The 10 yr part warranties provide just that- parts. They do not cover service fees, shipping, refrigerant, preventive maintenance, etc. If you buy hIgh end equipment(16+ SEER), I would purchase the optional extended labor warranty...you will need it. I would recommend a company that has been in business for at least 5 yrs and can provide referrals upon request. The contractor is much more important than the brand name of equipment. Ensure he is going to flush your refrigerant lines. Add a Skuttle DB-25-20 high efficiency air cleaner to keep your new coil and blower wheel clean with less filter changes. Stay clear of communicating systems, as they are great when they communicate. When they don't, it is big $$$$. Variable speed indoor blowers are nice as long as you don't mind paying $1200 vs $350 when it is time to replace. Typical changeout cost for second model up- 14 SEER 3 ton should run $5K plus or minus, depending on area. Ask if you have questions.
 
RV10flyer said:
Variable speed indoor blowers are nice as long as you don't mind paying $1200 vs $350 when it is time to replace.
Click to expand...

I hate to say it as a cheapskate at heart, but now that I have one of these, I'll happily pay whatever it takes to keep it.
 
Let'sgoflying! said:
ha, that was my next Q.

We are presented with SEER & HPSF but no way to translate that into "100$ less per month in energy costs" or similar.
Click to expand...

There are calculators as it depends on your run-hours and cost of electricity. It's a linear measure, so a 16SEER is going to cost roughly half the energy than an obsolete 8SEER unit. But the difference between 16 and 17 is going to take a long time to recoup.

At the time, I was given the advice to stay away from the 20+ SEER units currently on the market. They either use an inverter to control the variable speed compressor or a 2 compressor setup (e.g. Trane). While most HVAC units can be serviced by any HVAC tech, those roccket surgery complicated high SEER units may require factory techs if something goes wrong. Iirc you are are living at the edge of the known world, so I would go with as simple a system and controls as possible as you will rely on local help to get it fixed when it craps out on a 110F day.
 
Last edited:
Oh, and get a variable speed fan for the air-handler, even if you go with a basic unit and basic controls. It may not save you much on electricity, but it improves comfort level and reduces noise.
 
RV10flyer said:
I sell Goodman and American Standard. Goodman is now owned by Daikin from Japan. They are putting $410M+ into the Houston plant. They are about the only one that has not off-shored jobs to Mexico for assembly. Like all others, they assemble with mostly parts from Mexico and China. I would recommend not going with the base model and not going above 15 SEER if you prefer simple and cheaper to repair. The 10 yr part warranties provide just that- parts. They do not cover service fees, shipping, refrigerant, preventive maintenance, etc. If you buy hIgh end equipment(16+ SEER), I would purchase the optional extended labor warranty...you will need it. I would recommend a company that has been in business for at least 5 yrs and can provide referrals upon request. The contractor is much more important than the brand name of equipment. Ensure he is going to flush your refrigerant lines. Add a Skuttle DB-25-20 high efficiency air cleaner to keep your new coil and blower wheel clean with less filter changes. Stay clear of communicating systems, as they are great when they communicate. When they don't, it is big $$$$. Variable speed indoor blowers are nice as long as you don't mind paying $1200 vs $350 when it is time to replace. Typical changeout cost for second model up- 14 SEER 3 ton should run $5K plus or minus, depending on area. Ask if you have questions.
Click to expand...
I too own a A/C and Heating company. We sell most brands and 80% of our units sold are Goodman. IMO more boards = more problems.
 
I've had both great luck with Carrier and lousy luck with Carrier. I had nothing but trouble with the Carrier package unit in San Antonio, and an estimate of 6 months to get the parts needed to fix it. I've had decent luck with the residential unit here and in Ohio, though the unit here blew the compressor starting cap after 2 years and has, when first installed, made a scraping noise when the induction motor started (the installer fixed that one). Had problems with a vane switch on the blower for a Lennox.

So, buy based on the installer/service folks. Warranty means nothing if it takes 6 months to get and costs 20% of a new one. And know that home maintenance contracts (AKA "home warranty") are essentially useless.
 
weilke said:
Iirc you are are living at the edge of the known world
Click to expand...

Only 20% of the time. The rest of the time we are beyond that edge.

Thanks for the advice.
Will go with single stage compressor, non-variable handler due to expected need for 5 years, and its in a place where no one cares about noise.
 
NOLA Pilot said:
I too own a A/C and Heating company. We sell most brands and 80% of our units sold are Goodman. IMO more boards = more problems.
Click to expand...

I have been thinking about replacing with goodman. Took a HVAC course at the local CC. I can get a16 seer unit for about $2K and then install it myself. What do you think?
 
Morgan3820 said:
I have been thinking about replacing with goodman. Took a HVAC course at the local CC. I can get a16 seer unit for about $2K and then install it myself. What do you think?
Click to expand...
I would if I thought I could do it. If you have any questions along the way you can always message me. I would be glad to help.
 
Morgan3820 said:
I have been thinking about replacing with goodman. Took a HVAC course at the local CC. I can get a16 seer unit for about $2K and then install it myself. What do you think?
Click to expand...

Can you borrow a vacuum pump from someone ?
 
"To validate your warranty, a licensed professional must have either fully installed or inspected your equipment before and including turning on the product(s) during initial start-up. After the initial start-up has been completed the professional will provide you with a dated installation invoice detailing the model(s) and applicable serial number(s) of the equipment."

If putting your own system in that you buy online, be aware that Goodman distributors may not warranty parts. Also you won't get a 1 yr labor warranty or priority service from most contractors.
 
weilke said:
Can you borrow a vacuum pump from someone ?
Click to expand...
I bought one and a set of gauges for the course. But I may have a licensed individual come in and check the install and sign the warranty card. I appreciate your offer for help and may take you up on it, in the Spring.
 
RV10flyer said:
"To validate your warranty, a licensed professional must have either fully installed or inspected your equipment before and including turning on the product(s) during initial start-up. After the initial start-up has been completed the professional will provide you with a dated installation invoice detailing the model(s) and applicable serial number(s) of the equipment."

If putting your own system in that you buy online, be aware that Goodman distributors may not warranty parts. Also you won't get a 1 yr labor warranty or priority service from most contractors.
Click to expand...

$2K self install vs. $5K contractor install. Hmmm..
 
I am a DIY'er too, so I understand. My family built our slow build 10 in 2 yrs, and did everything but paint. The kit from Van's was just 1/4 of the cost.

Just so everyone understands, for $2,000, you will get three pieces of equipment...2.5 Ton 16 heat pump, air handler and 10 kw heat kit. You'll still have a new digital thermostat, line set or flush kit, disconnects, electrical whips, duct work, Skuttle high eff air cleaner, condensate trap/drain, vacuum pump oil, R-410A refrigerant for top off, heat load and duct sizing program(as most are not designed properly), permits where required, labor and tools to install(if not already acquired), warranty registration online and then provide your own warranty work/troubleshooting for a year. Not to discourage anyone, just to help them understand why we charge what we do. An HVAC guy like myself has $10,000+ in schooling, $2000+/yr in hvac license/insurance renewal, CPA for taxes, stocking a truck, maintaining and fueling a truck, etc. Good luck and yes, we can help with some things online.
 
I went with a Goodman for my summer house. Paid an extra $350 to go from 13 to 16 seer. (Mainly because condenser is quieter). Specifically asked the installer about unit, did not want variable speed fan or condenser. The 16 seer unit didn't have any of this. The guy did a good job, he installed new lineset and pad. Reused air filter unit. No heat since this is in NH and we have baseboard hot water heat. My only complaint about the install is he used a piston kit instead of a txv. Still debating whether to call him back for this, looking for advice.
 
Paul, I don't know of any 16 SEER units that I install that do not call for a vs blower and txv. That does not mean it won't work properly, just that you may not be getting a true 16 SEER, maybe 15 or more likely not even an ARI match.
 
RV10flyer said:
"To validate your warranty, a licensed professional must have either fully installed or inspected your equipment before and including turning on the product(s) during initial start-up. After the initial start-up has been completed the professional will provide you with a dated installation invoice detailing the model(s) and applicable serial number(s) of the equipment."

If putting your own system in that you buy online, be aware that Goodman distributors may not warranty parts. Also you won't get a 1 yr labor warranty or priority service from most contractors.
Click to expand...
we don't need no stink'n warrantee.....:D

I'm gonna fix it anyways. Since I'm a slum lord and an aircraft mechanic...we can do this. All one needs is to go online and take the $25 EPA tests.....go on ebay and buy a reclaim unit....badda bing...badda boom. You're in bidness.

I've installed a compressor or two and fixed several bad caps....replaced relays and fans. It's not hard....and I probably saved a ton.
 
Last edited:
RV10flyer said:
Paul, I don't know of any 16 SEER units that I install that do not call for a vs blower and txv. That does not mean it won't work properly, just that you may not be getting a true 16 SEER, maybe 15 or more likely not even an ARI match.
Click to expand...
I found about 10 axv in one of our trucks and asked the tech why he had them. He stated that they are extra parts from jobs. They came from 16 and 18 seer units that never got there axv.
He was giving the choice to go back to every job and apologize and install the axv ( without pay) or leave the company. He decided to move on.
 
RV10flyer said:
Paul, I don't know of any 16 SEER units that I install that do not call for a vs blower and txv. That does not mean it won't work properly, just that you may not be getting a true 16 SEER, maybe 15 or more likely not even an ARI match.
Click to expand...

It's been a few months since I looked it all up, but I'm pretty sure this unit didn't have a variable fan control but did call out a txv. I'm thinking either the guy didn't know about it, or he didn't know how to check the charge on the txv. The unit I replaced was a lennox with a txv with a slow leak. I've had several guys come out for that unit over the years and most of them had no clue as to how to check the charge, hence my thinking it might be better to leave good enough alone. My problem is I know just enough to be dangerous.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
we don't need no stink'n warrantee.....:D

I'm gonna fix it anyways. Since I'm a slum lord and an aircraft mechanic...we can do this. All one needs is to go online and take the $25 EPA tests.....go on ebay and buy a reclaim unit....badda bing...badda boom. You're in bidness.

I've installed a compressor or two and fixed several bad caps....replaced relays and fans. It's not hard....and I probably saved a ton.
Click to expand...
If you use a bad contractor or home warranty company, you'll be doing that anyway. Assuming someone will sell you the parts - a number of place won't in order to "protect the business and profession".
 
I have an older (I'd guess late '90's) Goodman package unit running the master/kitchen of our house. The A/C has always worked fantastic, but we seem to have issues with the heater almost every year. The draft/combustion fan and blower are new, the burners were replaced and aligned last year, the heat exchanger was replaced two years ago. It still trips the damn roll-out sensor about once every day or three, causing me to go out and reset it each time (which really sucks when it's a package unit outdoors). I left on business for a week, and had to bypass it with a jumper so the wife and baby wouldn't be left stranded while I was gone. (yes, I'm aware of fire/CO danger, we have several CO detectors nearby). I don't DISLIKE Goodman, but with 2 different HVAC companies and a host of parts, we never can seem to get it to be trouble-free. All that said, it IS probably 15+yrs old, so I dunno that I could expect much better.
 
wsuffa said:
If you use a bad contractor or home warranty company, you'll be doing that anyway. Assuming someone will sell you the parts - a number of place won't in order to "protect the business and profession".
Click to expand...

There's a good home warranty company? Never seen anyone but ripoff artists in that biz so far.
 
I
denverpilot said:
There's a good home warranty company? Never seen anyone but ripoff artists in that biz so far.
Click to expand...
You didn't pares that correctly.

Bad contractor.

Home warranty company. Or more accurately, home service contract.

I do agree with you.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top