N95 mask for a nurse?

[gkainz]

Looking for sources for an N95 mask for my daugher-in-law, who's a nurse and in regular contact with COVID patients. She's looking for this kind:


She says the hospital is providing the disposable masks, but looking for the above.

 

[Shawn]

Wouldn't that need to be sterilized after every patient to be truly effective and offer protection? Though that was the point of the disposable masks.

 

[Velocity173]

eBay has them. Gonna need a crap load of filters though.

 

[gkainz]

she said she checked ebay and they are 2-4 weeks out. I think she had/has filters already

I just checked and it appears they do have them ... unless the "bad news" shows up after placing the order. Thanks!

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

that will never work....to big to get off with out contaminating herself.

 

[FORANE]

There are also some looking at getting a full face snorkel mask, cutting the snorkel end and putting a n95 filter on it. The anesthesia staff has n95 filters for the anesthesia machines which could be put on the snorkel.

 

[MuseChaser]

I have NO idea about it's effectiveness on viruses, but I've got a great mask I use for woodworking and working with nasty hazardous paints on my boat that I bought at a hardware store. Wasn't much money... maybe $40 or less? It works great.. I can't even smell the odor of the hideous bottom paint I use, and it is nasty stuff. I walk out of my woodshop feeling like I've been breathing fresh air all day even after doing a ton of MDF and plywood routing.

 

[Matthew Rogers]

Wouldn't that need to be sterilized after every patient to be truly effective and offer protection? Though that was the point of the disposable masks.

I have North brand masks like that for my wood shop and use P100 filters (better than N95). You can also get a filter holder that holds individual replaceable N95 filters, but they would be more expensive than a disposable and not sure if you could get enough to replace every patient. But you could get enough to sterilize them later on.

I heard that nurses that are low on N95 masks put one on at the start of shift and don’t touch it until lunch break, then put on another for the remainder of the shift. That also limits the chance of infection through doffing them each time. So I would guess that respirator filters would be fine to wear all day and the mask could get alcohol wipes each time it was removed.

 

[flyingron]

The mask above appears to probably be an organic vapor or such. An N95 mask is just a dust mask with a rating on small particle transmission. I had boxes of them and they just look like non woven material. I used them regularly in my workshop (I'm allergic to many woods). I gave a whole bunch to local medical providers early on in this (reserving a few for my wear when I venture out of the house). Margy had supplemented what I had in the shop with another dozen because she was concerned that we were planned to go to Australia while the fires were burning there (fortunately, the rains came before we arrived).

 

[Matthew Rogers]

The mask above appears to probably be an organic vapor or such. An N95 mask is just a dust mask with a rating on small particle transmission. I had boxes of them and they just look like non woven material. I used them regularly in my workshop (I'm allergic to many woods). I gave a whole bunch to local medical providers early on in this (reserving a few for my wear when I venture out of the house). Margy had supplemented what I had in the shop with another dozen because she was concerned that we were planned to go to Australia while the fires were burning there (fortunately, the rains came before we arrived).

Those masks all have replaceable cartridge filters that quickly twist on and off. So you can set it up for whatever task you are working on. Organic vapor, organic vapor and oils, organic vapor, oil, and particulates, particulates and oil, or particulates. All these options for filter cartridges exist. That one seems to be a 3M style that is a quarter turn attachment. I use a North brand mask with round filters that have a regular thread.

 

[weilke]

The mask above appears to probably be an organic vapor or such.

If you take those rectangular vapor cartridges off, you will find two round holes with a connector that looks like a Storz fitting. You can then attach for example a pair of 3M 2071 filters. P95 is rated for the same particle sizes as a N95, but it is somewhat resistant to oils in the mist which a N95 is not.

So yes, you can use those 3M 6000 and 7000 series masks with the appropriate particulate filter instead of a disposable N95. You just gotta find the filters. They are usually a throwaway item that a paint-shop or landscaper buys for a few cents a piece. Right now they are unobtainium and some folks try to charge $20 a pair on e-bay.

 

[weilke]

A related question:

If someone here has a box of 3M 2071, 2078, 2091, 2097, 2291 filters (basically anything that is P95 or P100) in his paint shop and doesn't anticipate to paint a car/plane/motorcycle in the next 2 months, please send me a PM if you are willing to part with them. While our hospital is well stocked so far, I wouldn't mind having a box of filters in case we do run out of N95s.

 

[Velocity173]

Doesn’t matter what we think or recommend, this really comes down to what her particular hospital policy is. She may or may not be allowed to wear it. If she is, she’ll need to get refitted, because I guarantee you her current fitting is on the disposable N95 and not this respirator. Nothing wrong with this respirator, it still uses N95/N100 filters, but if they have no procedures for fitting and decon, I doubt they let her use it.

 

[weilke]

Doesn’t matter what we think or recommend, this really comes down to what her particular hospital policy is. She may or may not be allowed to wear it. If she is, she’ll need to get refitted, because I guarantee you her current fitting is on the disposable N95 and not this respirator. Nothing wrong with this respirator, it still uses N95/N100 filters, but if they have no procedures for fitting and decon, I doubt they let her use it.

Those policies tends to change rapidly once the hospital gets down to their last box of N95s.

 

[Velocity173]

Those policies tends to change rapidly once the hospital gets down to their last box of N95s.

Well we’ve got plenty of N95s. The overhyped NYC hysteria isn’t everywhere. She gets COVID using a respirator that she hasn’t been fit for or lack of procedures for decon and the hospital will avoid all liability.

 

[NJP_MAN]

Why stop at N95? Go straight to a P100 and play it safe

 

[Brad W]

yep.
Also, I've had plenty of those respirators over the years have slight leakage through the exhale valve(s). Basically when you exhale there's a flap valve that opens wide to ambient. It has to close with the negative pressure from your inhalation...but a little bit can get by before it closes if it's not 'perfect'. part of the fitting check, but still....

 

[Velocity173]

Why stop at N95? Go straight to a P100 and play it safe

Well for one, there’s no need for oil protection and two, both 95 and 100 provide protection down to .3 microns. COVID in its vapor state is actually slightly below .3 microns. That’s why you have healthcare workers coming down with COVID while wearing proper PPE.

 

[Matthew Rogers]

Well for one, there’s no need for oil protection and two, both 95 and 100 provide protection down to .3 microns. COVID in its vapor state is actually slightly below .3 microns. That’s why you have healthcare workers coming down with COVID while wearing proper PPE.

But N95 stops 95% of those .3 micron particles while P100 stops 99.97% of .3 micron particles. So with the P100 filters, you are getting 16 times more tiny particles through the N95 filter.

 

[Velocity173]

But N95 stops 95% of those .3 micron particles while P100 stops 99.97% of .3 micron particles. So with the P100 filters, you are getting 16 times more tiny particles through the N95 filter.

And again, COVID in vapor form is outside the threshold of both respirators. There’s no guarantee to be protected from COVID with those masks. If you want to spend the extra $$$ on 100 vs 95, be my guest.

 

[Stan Cooper]

I was really surprised to learn that the virus lifespan on the outside of a surgical mask is 7 days(!) at 71 degrees F and 65% humidity.

One chart shows how long the coronavirus lives on surfaces like cardboard, plastic, wood, and steel

This study was published April 2 in The Lancet Microbe journal.

 

[NJP_MAN]

Well for one, there’s no need for oil protection and two, both 95 and 100 provide protection down to .3 microns. COVID in its vapor state is actually slightly below .3 microns. That’s why you have healthcare workers coming down with COVID while wearing proper PPE.

I just figured that with all the N95 hype some people would be overlooking P100. Since 99 percent of people don't even know what N95 actually means maybe there is better access to P100. I haven't done any looking for respirators lately so I'm not sure of the availability of the different options.

 

[Palmpilot]

I was really surprised to learn that the virus lifespan on the outside of a surgical mask is 7 days(!) at 71 degrees F and 65% humidity.

One chart shows how long the coronavirus lives on surfaces like cardboard, plastic, wood, and steel

This study was published April 2 in The Lancet Microbe journal.
View attachment 84543

I'm glad to see that paper money is on that chart. I figure that cash is loaded with the virus, and when I receive it, I put it in my trunk for a while, and then wash my hands with soap and water for twenty seconds when I can.

 

[Stan Cooper]

I'm glad to see that paper money is on that chart. I figure that cash is loaded with the virus, and when I receive it, I put it in my trunk for a while, and then wash my hands with soap and water for twenty seconds when I can.

I do the same thing; I must be washing my hands 30 or 40 times a day.

 

[weilke]

Well we’ve got plenty of N95s. The overhyped NYC hysteria isn’t everywhere. She gets COVID using a respirator that she hasn’t been fit for or lack of procedures for decon and the hospital will avoid all liability.

That's so nice that you guys are well stocked. A good number of hospitals at this point are not, and that goes beyond NYC.

FWIW the CDC asked the FDA to issue an emergency use authorization to substitute FDA regulated N95s and PAPRs with their NIOSH approved industrial equivalents. The FDA promptly issued such an authorization and lo and behold, it includes the 6000 and 7000 series 3M masks pictured above. CMS followed this up with guidance to their surveyors that use of equivalent NIOSH masks is not a violation of medicare rules on only using FDA approved respiratory protection equipment.

Now it is up to the hospital and its respiratory protection program to approve appropriate masks. These things are made to be worn by a guy spraying pesticides or paint for an entire shift. With their elastomeric seal, they are actually much tighter than the flimsy N95s. Fit-testing someone with a industrial mask is no different from fit-testing someone for a N95. IF you work for an employer with a respiratory protection program, you can't just show up with your own equipment. But if a hospital approaches a shortage of PPE, they may well allow staff to be fit tested for and to wear NIOSH approved respirators that are covered under the FDAs EUA. I have seen plenty of pics of hospital staff in the recent days with industrial half-face respirators, its a thing.

And again, COVID in vapor form is below the threshold of both respirators. There’s no guarantee to be protected from COVID with those masks. If you want to spend the extra $$$ on 100 vs 95, be my guest.

'That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.'




The size of the virus particle itself is not what governs whether it can be transmitted into the respiratory tract of a worker. The viruses dont float around by themselves, they cant. They live either in larger droplets or in aerosols which ARE filtered by a properly fitted N95 (or equivalent) respirator.

 

[denverpilot]

There are also some looking at getting a full face snorkel mask, cutting the snorkel end and putting a n95 filter on it. The anesthesia staff has n95 filters for the anesthesia machines which could be put on the snorkel.

Read a hilarious story that I have no idea if true, but a nurse said she put the tube behind her and was having a “gassy” day... she hung it in front from then on... lol.

 

[YooperMooney]

What she is looking for would be extremely uncomfortable to wear all day. I know this because I have done that when painting vehicles. It’s dreadful. I’d stick with a traditional N95. I work in a medical center and I am just wearing a regular rectangular medical face mask. It’s 100x more comfortable than a N95 and 10,000x more comfortable than a vapour respirator over the course of a 12-hour shift. If the hospital masks 100% of its inhabitants then the airborne particle spread would be substantially less. I mean, aren’t these places supposed to inherently have good HVAC systems to bring in fresh air all throughout the facility? Mine has that.

 

[Velocity173]

That's so nice that you guys are well stocked. A good number of hospitals at this point are not, and that goes beyond NYC.

FWIW the CDC asked the FDA to issue an emergency use authorization to substitute FDA regulated N95s and PAPRs with their NIOSH approved industrial equivalents. The FDA promptly issued such an authorization and lo and behold, it includes the 6000 and 7000 series 3M masks pictured above. CMS followed this up with guidance to their surveyors that use of equivalent NIOSH masks is not a violation of medicare rules on only using FDA approved respiratory protection equipment.

Now it is up to the hospital and its respiratory protection program to approve appropriate masks. These things are made to be worn by a guy spraying pesticides or paint for an entire shift. With their elastomeric seal, they are actually much tighter than the flimsy N95s. Fit-testing someone with a industrial mask is no different from fit-testing someone for a N95. IF you work for an employer with a respiratory protection program, you can't just show up with your own equipment. But if a hospital approaches a shortage of PPE, they may well allow staff to be fit tested for and to wear NIOSH approved respirators that are covered under the FDAs EUA. I have seen plenty of pics of hospital staff in the recent days with industrial half-face respirators, its a thing.



'That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.'




The size of the virus particle itself is not what governs whether it can be transmitted into the respiratory tract of a worker. The viruses dont float around by themselves, they cant. They live either in larger droplets or in aerosols which ARE filtered by a properly fitted N95 (or equivalent) respirator.

And that’s why I said it depends on her hospital policy. For anyone on POA to recommend a certain mask for this nurse would be speculation because we have no idea what protocols are in place for her hospital. For every hospital that claims to be short on supplies, you have 10 that are fully stocked and prepared. NY brought this upon themselves.

As far as N95 effectiveness, I hope you aren’t claiming that they’re 100 % effective from COVID because they’re not. While large in aerosol form they can range in size and be outside of the threshold for mask filtration. Not a single one of these companies claim 100 % effectiveness. Only way of achieving that would be an an atmosphere supplying respirator (SCBA) device.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/leahro...-mask-a-guide-to-coronavirus-face-protection/


https://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/409903O/respiratory-protection-against-biohazards.pdf

 

[weilke]

As far as N95 effectiveness, I hope you aren’t claiming that they’re 100 % effective from COVID because they’re not. While large in aerosol form they can range in size and be outside of the threshold for mask filtration. Not a single one of these companies claim 100 % effectiveness. Only way of achieving that would be an an atmosphere supplying respirator (SCBA) device.

Is it your assertion that penetration of virus particles through a properly fitted N95 is a significant factor in the transmission of SARS-Cov2 to healthcare personnel ?

 

[YooperMooney]

The Wuhan One Niner is smaller than the N95 but the thickness of the filtration element should have no problem catching it. I don’t work around too many strangers and my hospital treats the positive screenings as if their head is on fire. A PAPR mask system is what all healthcare workers need to be wearing. Where are the PAPR’s at? Ask the medical Center upper management. It’s all about pinching pennies so they can get fat end-of-year bonuses. When I worked EMS for a decade we were required to have two working PAPR’s in each trauma taxi per regulation. Wow did that “overbearing rule” by the county ever payoff...

 

[Velocity173]

Is it your assertion that penetration of virus particles through a properly fitted N95 is a significant factor in the transmission of SARS-Cov2 to healthcare personnel ?

I actually think the size of the COVID particles actually getting through would be insignificant but there’s no claim that a properly fitting N95 filters out all COVID either. A single exposure, and I’d say you’re chances are good at filtration but healthcare workers are being exposed on a daily basis. There’s thousands of healthcare workers that have been infected while still wearing PPE. I seriously doubt all them were infected because of poorly fitting PPE or not properly sanitizing.

 

[flyingron]

COVID is not the virus. COVID is the disease you get from the virus. The size of the virus is about .1u which the mask won't stop. Fortunately, it's not airborne (like measles). We'd really be in trouble if it was. Indeed the smallest atomized particles average around .3 to .5u, which means there's maybe 10% that is smaller than the .3 the mask is rated for (now the mask doesn't just stop working at .3 and it doesn't stop all at .3 (just 95), so yes, a mask is not a surefire stopper, but it does work for a substantial amount.

 

[Stan Cooper]

COVID is not the virus. COVID is the disease you get from the virus.

The virus that causes COVID-19 is SARS-CoV-2.

 

[Brad W]

I was really surprised to learn that the virus lifespan on the outside of a surgical mask is 7 days(!) at 71 degrees F and 65% humidity.

One chart shows how long the coronavirus lives on surfaces like cardboard, plastic, wood, and steel

This study was published April 2 in The Lancet Microbe journal.
View attachment 84543

that chart doesn't pass the smell test in my estimation.
what makes a surgical mask so different from paper & cloth?
what makes paper money so different from paper & cloth?

My understanding from reading about viruses (a long time ago before this pandemic) is that it's primarily about how fast the virus dries out. Absorbent surfaces tend to facilitate drying...paper, cloth, cardboard, etc...
and non-absorbent surfaces don't so it stays viable a bit longer....metal, stainless steel, plastic, etc....
then you have the reactive metals such as copper, which presumably actively kill, so they are different
and of course all of these time estimates presuppose that it's the virus on the surface alone....and if it was all nice and cozy inside a nice big drop of mucus or saliva then it's going to last much longer....

 

[Kenny Phillips]

COVID is not the virus. COVID is the disease you get from the virus. The size of the virus is about .1u which the mask won't stop. Fortunately, it's not airborne (like measles). We'd really be in trouble if it was. Indeed the smallest atomized particles average around .3 to .5u, which means there's maybe 10% that is smaller than the .3 the mask is rated for (now the mask doesn't just stop working at .3 and it doesn't stop all at .3 (just 95), so yes, a mask is not a surefire stopper, but it does work for a substantial amount.

They have found that an aerosolized virus can float in the air and be viable for more than 30 minutes. So whilst not technically airborne, in close quarters it's nearly the same.

 

[Stan Cooper]

that chart doesn't pass the smell test in my estimation.
what makes a surgical mask so different from paper & cloth?
what makes paper money so different from paper & cloth?

My understanding from reading about viruses (a long time ago before this pandemic) is that it's primarily about how fast the virus dries out. Absorbent surfaces tend to facilitate drying...paper, cloth, cardboard, etc...
and non-absorbent surfaces don't so it stays viable a bit longer....metal, stainless steel, plastic, etc....
then you have the reactive metals such as copper, which presumably actively kill, so they are different
and of course all of these time estimates presuppose that it's the virus on the surface alone....and if it was all nice and cozy inside a nice big drop of mucus or saliva then it's going to last much longer....

Take it up with the editorial review board at The Lancet Microbe and the authors of the correspondence.

 

[Brad W]

Stan
my apologies...I meant no criticism or ill will to you and your post...it was just an observation about the content solely for the sake of discussion...and I suppose loosely directed to the publisher.....not to you.

 

[Stan Cooper]

Stan
my apologies...I meant no criticism or ill will to you and your post...it was just an observation about the content solely for the sake of discussion...and I suppose loosely directed to the publisher.....not to you.

Thanks, Brad.

Apparently that chart wasn't part of the published correspondence in The Lancet Microbe, but appears to have been added to the Business Insider article I linked to that had a link to the Lancet correspondence; I think I owe you an apology.

EDIT - There's another chart I got from one of the journals discussing ways to disinfect masks for reuse that looks interesting. It cautions NOT to use alcohol and chlorine base disinfectants.

 

[weilke]

I actually think the size of the COVID particles actually getting through would be insignificant but there’s no claim that a properly fitting N95 filters out all COVID either. A single exposure, and I’d say you’re chances are good at filtration but healthcare workers are being exposed on a daily basis. There’s thousands of healthcare workers that have been infected while still wearing PPE. I seriously doubt all them were infected because of poorly fitting PPE or not properly sanitizing.

There are multiple other avenues to infect yourself beyond aerosol penetration through a respirator. Every year, we have tens of thousands of healthcare personnel who become carriers for antibiotic resistant bacteria like MRSA and multi-drug resistant enterococcus despite their best efforts to not contaminate themselves.

Yes, there is data from some clusters that suggest at least some spread through aerosols. Yet that is NOT the dominant mechanism and there is no data to suggest that penetration through a N95 is responsible for a significant number of healthcare related transmission cases. The japanese doc who evaluated the cruise passengers for example was wearing a surgical mask. The singapore experience otoh showed that if you have otherwise ample PPE on hand, you can care for covid patients with only goggles and a surgical mask for droplet precautions. I haven't checked lately, but they didn't have a single healthcare worker case during the first wave in February.

 

[flyingron]

It's a good conclusion against not using the two methods listed, but it doesn't much say anything about killing the corona virus. E. Coli is bacteria and a different beast.
In fact, we have next to no information on killing SARS-COV-2. They've must been assuming it behaves the same as the prior SARS and MERS strains in most studies.