N/A HVAC system costs

Flyingfanatic

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Flying Fanatic
Looking at getting a new HVAC system for our house. Current system is a 3 ton, 13 seer heat pump and a 80% furnace (probably 100000 BTU)

Got a rough estimate for a 3.5 ton, 16 seer AC, 96% furnace with a 4 ton blower.

I know some significant labor will be needed to switch it over.

My question is what are the best brands of systems? How much should I expect to spend (in the Midwest)?

The rough estimate given was 7k.
 
That's sounds a little high but not too bad. Don't forget to take the tax benefit of the energy savings next year.
 
Doesn't sound too far off. We did a similar replacement but propane forced air, and an A/C unit (already plumbed the old unit wasn't worth repairing) for that.

Be aware that a high efficiency furnace needs a drain. It'll produce liquid. If there's no drain available where the furnace lives, expect plumbing expenses. We had a drain available.
 
They have a nifty little water box pump now. Air Conditioner cold exchanger produces water too. Probably need one for that too. You do need somewhere to pump it to. Home depot has one for $50.
 
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Our AC was replace a few years ago, York. Got the highest SEER we could get before we hit the high-efficiency level that would have required a new furnace along with some other modifications. I think ours is 3.5T. The exterior unit is much larger than our old one and the cooling fan turns at a much lower RPM so it's quieter and that extra size adds more cooling capacity. It has a scroll-compressor vs a piston compressor. I had to look that up on the interwebs to see how they work. Pretty interesting. It is more quiet than the old one.
 
Doesn't sound too far off. We did a similar replacement but propane forced air, and an A/C unit (already plumbed the old unit wasn't worth repairing) for that.

Be aware that a high efficiency furnace needs a drain. It'll produce liquid. If there's no drain available where the furnace lives, expect plumbing expenses. We had a drain available.

Luckily there's a drain available.

Just looking at the systems online, they look like they run about 3k-3500. Another 3500 in labor seems high. Just want to see if I'm missing something. His price does include anew thermostat and pad for the ac
 
Probably a reasonable estimate. The peeps at hvac-talk.com will say basically all the major components (i.e. the compressor) are similar from brand to brand. The care and quality of the installation is what's important.

Also, why are you upsizing AC capacity? Bigger is not always better. There are calcs that can be done to make sure you have the right size equipment for your house.
 
He probably went upsize because the previous one wasn't doing its job. That and global warming.
 
I went through an AC replacement two years ago. In the end I went with a 16 SEER Carrier. This is what I took away from the experience:

- the company that does the work matters more than the brand name on the box that gets installed. They all are put together from the same components in different factories in mexico
- get a conventional thermostat system, not one of those newfangled 'communicating' designs. 5 years down the line when the manufacturer stops making whatever 'board' died this week, you will be SOL with a communicating design. A conventional thermostat can still have features like Wifi and remote controls.
- get a variable speed blower, it is definitely worth it for the lower noise and improved comfort
- 'any brand using a 2-stage Copeland scroll compressor' was the recommendation I received from folks who install and service those things
- stay away from two compressor setups and variable speed compressors. While they are very efficient, there are like 3 people in the state who know how to troubleshoot them.
- 'while we are here', get your ducts cleaned and pressure tested. If you have leaks, get them sealed, particularly with an attic mounted unit
- I upsized from a 1.5ton to a 2ton compressor with a 2.5ton air handler (this was the recommended combination from Carrier). My power bill was reduced considerably.
 
I sure appreciate my swamp cooler to stay cool and my pellet stoves to stay warm. This time of year I am using heat in the morning and the cooler in the afternoon.
 
Make sure you have the best cold air return possible. I had one put in the basement (there was NONE down there). I used to have 65 degrees in the basement, 75 degrees main floor and 85 degrees second floor when it was 100 outside. And it wasnt the air conditioners fault. It was because the duct system was designed for heat (Colorado) and air conditioning was an afterthought. In southern climates they put air conditioning ducts coming out of the ceiling of the top floor. Well I couldnt do that but we figured out how to put a cold air return at the top of the top floor and a cold air return in the basement. I now have 70 degrees in the basement, 75 on main floor and 80 upstairs. Not bad and better than before. Still not perfect.
 
- get a conventional thermostat system, not one of those newfangled 'communicating' designs. 5 years down the line when the manufacturer stops making whatever 'board' died this week, you will be SOL with a communicating design. A conventional thermostat can still have features like Wifi and remote controls.

I decided the other way on this one mostly because after researching I found that Bryant and a couple of others (Carrier, etc... many of these brands have been bought up into a conglomerate and they're made in the same places anyway) built SOME of their communicating T-stat lines using a standard communications protocol. Not much risk of a "board" failure not being able to be replaced by a brand new t-stat down the road. It won't be the same physical t-stat, but it'll speak their standard protocol back to their devices. It's a risk, but it's about a $300 risk. And I love the Bryant t-stat. Great features, internet connectivity for free/life/whenever Bryant goes under... at least as good as a Nest.

He probably went upsize because the previous one wasn't doing its job. That and global warming.

LOL.

Make sure you have the best cold air return possible. I had one put in the basement (there was NONE down there). I used to have 65 degrees in the basement, 75 degrees main floor and 85 degrees second floor when it was 100 outside. And it wasnt the air conditioners fault. It was because the duct system was designed for heat (Colorado) and air conditioning was an afterthought. In southern climates they put air conditioning ducts coming out of the ceiling of the top floor. Well I couldnt do that but we figured out how to put a cold air return at the top of the top floor and a cold air return in the basement. I now have 70 degrees in the basement, 75 on main floor and 80 upstairs. Not bad and better than before. Still not perfect.

The comments about ductwork are CRITICAL in a retrofit. Our ductwork SUCKS in our house. We also had ZERO returns in our basement which is just stupidity. We did one winter in the original configuration and for better or worse a plumbing leak upstairs led to tearing out a finished basement ceiling and since our installer on the HVAC had said if we ever had to get into the ceiling to call them and they'd fix the return problem and anything else in the basement duct work that they could, we took them up on it and tore more of the ceiling out. Had to hire drywall folks anyway at that point so what's a few more bucks.

Our ductwork still Isn't quite right, but we got temps to stay within 5F of each other heating or cooling between floors.

Continuous fan also factors into this. In winter we run it a little faster and it does a great job of circulating heated air around the house. I'm not as concerned with using a fairly deep daily setback when nobody is home because I'm not as worried about temps in the bathrooms with outside walls.

Summer, we can shut it down in the profiles or leave it on very low speed and it's not as useful but it still helps even out things on a hot day between upstairs and basement.

We still have a static pressure problem even with more ductwork fixes but another plus of a variable speed system with a smart controller is that we can force CFM limits on a system that will blow much harder than the ductwork will allow and it'll compensate.

Oh. Forgot to mention. Doesn't apply to the heat pump setup but with ours being forced air propane, a variable BURNER (modulating as they say) is also installed with the variable blower. This allows the system to sip fuel at 40% of max heating power and vary the burner to match the CFM limitation forced by the ductwork.

This thing compared to the old stupid 80% efficient on/off furnace is like night and day. We love it.
 
Probably a reasonable estimate. The peeps at hvac-talk.com will say basically all the major components (i.e. the compressor) are similar from brand to brand. The care and quality of the installation is what's important.

Also, why are you upsizing AC capacity? Bigger is not always better. There are calcs that can be done to make sure you have the right size equipment for your house.

That's the recommendation from the installer. The current system doesn't keep up on days over about 85-90. The best it can do is 78, so it runs constantly in the summer.
 
That's the recommendation from the installer. The current system doesn't keep up on days over about 85-90. The best it can do is 78, so it runs constantly in the summer.

The problem is, if they haven't done the measurements and math, adding more cooling if you can't move the air, will just freeze up stuff and not actually work. Make sure they're talking about how the ductwork and air handling will be able to keep up with a larger unit.
 
Going from 3 to 3.5 tons probably isn't a big deal. You actually want it to run a lot to remove humidity. If you go too big it won't run long enough and freeze you out when it does. I just replaced a Lennox with a Goodman. No furnace in it, it is a 4 ton unit, pretty straight forward retrofit. I paid about $4.5k if I remember correctly. It is a 16 seer unit. This is a summer house. I opted for the 16 (I think, the house is 100 miles away in the info is up there) because it didn't have the communicating systems in it or the variable speed motor. The simpler the better for me. The Lennox gave me good service until the a coil rusted out and started leaking about 6 years ago. I have a Goodman in my other house and it runs almost non stop from the end of April until the end of October (wife has bad allergies). This unit is 20 years old and going strong. It has had its issues, a couple contactors, and spade connectors that arc and burn themselves up. The first time that happened a guy showed it to me and told me I needed a new compressor. I told him I'd think about it, then made my own clamp/connector out of a dryer plug wire terminal. Had to do this 3 times until all the spades were replaced.

Bottom line, read up. There are some condenser coils that fail after a few years, by a company I can't remember. Look for issues like that. Also the price for efficiency seems to increase exponentially requiring a long time to recoup your investment and getting the efficiency depends on the unit being set up correctly. You'll get a lot of conflicting info about units.

If the ductwork is good and already there, fuel source there, then you are really talking about a retrofit, which shouldn't be too expensive. Your 80% unit probably vents into some type of chimney. The 96% unit probably has a PVC pipe though the wall. Your present unit already has accommodations for condensate.

Finally make sure your contractor is good. A bad install can make the best unit a nightmare to own.
 
Also the price for efficiency seems to increase exponentially requiring a long time to recoup your investment and getting the efficiency depends on the unit being set up correctly. You'll get a lot of conflicting info about units.

Going from 10 to 16 will make a difference to your bill, I just found that the further steps didn't really pencil out. Unless there is some tax or utility rebate involved, the cost for the 18 or 20 SEER units only pays back if you have california level electricity rates.
 
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