my turn to be that guy...

T

that guy

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After attending a fly-in at an uncontrolled field, I'm holding short, waiting for landing traffic. There's a guy with a red flag and a green flag but no radio. A Cherokee lands and there's a Citabria on downwind. I key up the mic and ask if the Cherokee has cleared the runway, no response. I finally see that the Cherokee is clear, I see the guy waving the green flag, so I taxi out and start my takeoff roll. The guy starts waving the red flag excitedly and the Citabria says they're going around. Argh! Totally my fault. We deconflict and sort it out.

1. I never heard the Citabria call base or final. Maybe I stepped on him trying to talk to the Cherokee?
2. Are flags the same as light gun signals? How do I know if the green flag is for me or the landing traffic?
 
When you saw the Citabria on downwind why didn't you keep it in sight? I have no idea about the flags as I've never been in that situation ...
 
that guy said:
2. Are flags the same as light gun signals? How do I know if the green flag is for me or the landing traffic?
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Do you trust the guy with the flags knows what he is doing.??

Was there a briefing or NOTAM stating the flag guy was acting ATC.??

Was the flag guy pointing at you or the Citabria when waving the flag.??

But, no damage done except maybe to trousers..... all Ok.
 
Whoever was running the flyin and had the idea to put someone with flags out there to direct takeoff and landing aircraft sure is taking on bunch of unnecessary liability. What’s wrong with just following normal procedures for an uncontrolled field?
 
that guy said:
1. I never heard the Citabria call base or final. Maybe I stepped on him trying to talk to the Cherokee?
2. Are flags the same as light gun signals? How do I know if the green flag is for me or the landing traffic?
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1. It's a BIG mistake to rely on radio calls at a non-towered field. You shouldn't ignore them but you shouldn't rely on them either, especially if there is a distraction like a flagman.
2. Light gun signals are used at towered airports where a clearance to land is required. There's no such requirement at a non-towered field and I would question the flagman about what he's doing and why. Had the Citabria landed on top of you it would have been your fault, not his.
 
dbahn said:
Had the Citabria landed on top of you it would have been your fault, not his.
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Exactly! Regardless of a flagman, a radio, or even a controller - if you see a plane coming in on final the runway is theirs. Did you check final approach before taking the active?
 
It appears none of you have ever been to the Antique Airplane Association Fly-In at Blakesburg, IA. :D They use flags and it's very safe. They have some really old airplanes with no radios and some that even if they had a radio, they probably couldn't hear you.

It is spelled out very clearly in their NOTAM. They have two flagmen who work together. One at the end of the runway and one in the middle, over the hill, that can see the rest of the runway. When landing, you only land if they're holding up a green flag. If you see a red flag, you don't have to go around immediately, just don't land. You may get a green flag at the last minute if the plane ahead of you clears the runway.

When you're waiting to takeoff, you hold short until they point at you with the flag and wave you forward. Of course, you still look to make sure nobody is on final, it's still your responsibility.

Not sure about the fly-in you went to, but in AAA's case, it's spelled out clearly and you're responsible for knowing how it works before you fly in there. Works great!
 
dbahn said:
Had the Citabria landed on top of you it would have been your fault, not his.
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Not sure I'd argue whose fault it was, but once a plane lines up on the runway, they can't see behind them. If I don't hear the plane making calls and don't see them, I'll pull out for takeoff. Alway be prepared to go around if someone is waiting to take off.

I was at a fly-in this weekend where someone was acting like they were the tower. They had a handheld and were in the wind, so I couldn't understand them. It was no help at all and actually dangerous.
 
Are you sure you didn't mistake the hired clown for an air traffic director?
 
IMG_0190.jpeg
The first air traffic controller was Archie League. Here he is with his wheel barrow…full of flags.

We’ve come a long way since 1929.
 
frfly172 said:
I can only assume that if your using a flag man ,that the information was posted on a notam.
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"Fly-in" doesn't mean AirVenture, Sun n Fun, or anything formal. Just a bunch of pilots deciding to go somewhere. I've seen a number of fly-ins with no NOTAM but people directing traffic. I just assume they are inexperienced untrained volunteers.
 
That can be at the big shows also.

We were arriving in a large formation of T-34 to SnF. Called and arranged to use the full length, as we were landing 4 ships in trail. Flag person runs out onto the runway to direct the lead flight to turn off short. Almost caused a LOT of planes to come in contact with each other. He was lucky the lead flight could stop, as they were keeping the speed up for the flights behind.
 
Pinecone said:
That can be at the big shows also.

We were arriving in a large formation of T-34 to SnF. Called and arranged to use the full length, as we were landing 4 ships in trail. Flag person runs out onto the runway to direct the lead flight to turn off short. Almost caused a LOT of planes to come in contact with each other. He was lucky the lead flight could stop, as they were keeping the speed up for the flights behind.
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I can’t believe the lead did that. Don’t think I’d ever want him in formation again.
 
luvflyin said:
I can’t believe the lead did that. Don’t think I’d ever want him in formation again.
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How is it lead's fault that the flag man ran out into the middle of the runway? Or are you saying lead should have hit the guy????????
 
Lowflynjack said:
It appears none of you have ever been to the Antique Airplane Association Fly-In at Blakesburg, IA. :D They use flags and it's very safe. They have some really old airplanes with no radios and some that even if they had a radio, they probably couldn't hear you.

It is spelled out very clearly in their NOTAM. They have two flagmen who work together. One at the end of the runway and one in the middle, over the hill, that can see the rest of the runway. When landing, you only land if they're holding up a green flag. If you see a red flag, you don't have to go around immediately, just don't land. You may get a green flag at the last minute if the plane ahead of you clears the runway.

When you're waiting to takeoff, you hold short until they point at you with the flag and wave you forward. Of course, you still look to make sure nobody is on final, it's still your responsibility.

Not sure about the fly-in you went to, but in AAA's case, it's spelled out clearly and you're responsible for knowing how it works before you fly in there. Works great!
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EdFred said:
No, the "that guy" in this situation is the dumbass that came up with flags for a fly-in.
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+1, they are dumbasses.

I flew there about ten years ago and read the procedure in advance. Guess what? Nobody was running flags like they said they would be. No airplanes were in the pattern. No closed markers were on the runway. I circled for a bit and saw nobody making any attempt to indicate anything to me. The procedure didn't say what the hell to do if the flagman weren't there. So, I land my airplane (a 900 lb tailwheel) & then had multiple people chewing my ass about how I just landed on their closed runway (which they didn't indicate via any standard means that it was closed, no X) and that it is too soft/wet for them to allow me to depart (I had no problem landing and caused no damage). Refused to allow me to depart. I had to get a ride home via car and retrieve my airplane about a week later. I don't recommend & will not return.
 
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jesse said:
+1, they are dumbasses.

I flew there about ten years ago and read the procedure in advance. Guess what? Nobody was running flags like they said they would be. No airplanes were in the pattern. No closed markers were on the runway. I circled for a bit and saw nobody making any attempt to indicate anything to me. The procedure didn't say what the hell to do if the flagman weren't there. So, I land my airplane (a 900 lb tailwheel) & then had multiple people chewing my *** about how I just landed on their closed runway (which they didn't indicate via any means that it was closed) and that it is too soft/wet for them to allow me to depart (I had no problem landing). Refused to allow me to depart. I had to get a ride home via car and retrieve my airplane about a week later. I don't recommend & will not return.
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At Blakesburg? They clearly tell you which runway is closed. I’m okay with you not returning though. For anyone in love with aviation, I highly recommend checking it out.
 
Lowflynjack said:
At Blakesburg? They clearly tell you which runway is closed. I’m okay with you not returning though. For anyone in love with aviation, I highly recommend checking it out.
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Yes, at Blakesburg. How do they clearly tell you? Did you even read what I wrote? Lets try again...

1.) I arrived during the scheduled event and followed the scheduled procedure.
2.) I overflew the field, observed the wind direction and indicated runway.
3.) The procedure says a flagman will wave a flag at you when you are on final approach.
4.) On final approach I observed there were no flag men waving anything. They simply were not there.
5.) The runway had no closed markings. I observed no visual issues with it. I landed and got my ass chewed. I caused no conflict with any other aircraft and no damage to their precious grass (flybaby on big J3 tires)

The people chewing my ass had no answer for how I was supposed to have known. They had decided things were too wet, pulled the flagmen, and failed to put markers on the runway indicating the field was closed.

I continue to love aviation just fine without them & have not had any issues with being "that guy" at any other fly in.
 
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Years ago I flew to KHAF, a non-towered airport during a huge automobile/aviation expo and there was a NOTAM about a temporary tower. I heeded the notam. Contacted tower. They were hard to get a hold of but when I was on the 45 for right base they cleared me to land but kept asking me "are you in a flight of four?" Two which I kept replying "no." So on final they said "Land long, and to your right." Finally it all clicked. I looked around, and there were three NORDO aircraft, one beside me and two behind me. I landed long and to the right. And nearly got in to a fistfight with the ******* that was to the left of me.
 
Pinecone said:
How is it lead's fault that the flag man ran out into the middle of the runway? Or are you saying lead should have hit the guy????????
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Well...nah, it would probably require a prop strike engine teardown.:incazzato: I wasn't thinking the guy ran out in front of him. Just on the edge and flagged him in and he slowed and turned off just because the guy told him to when he had room to keep going. Just curious now, how long an interval do you guys shoot for and do you do the left side right side thing.
 
jesse said:
Yes, at Blakesburg. How do they clearly tell you? Did you even read what I wrote? Lets try again...

1.) I arrived during the scheduled event and followed the scheduled procedure.
2.) I overflew the field, observed the wind direction and indicated runway.
3.) The procedure says a flagman will wave a flag at you when you are on final approach.
4.) On final approach I observed there were no flag men waving anything. They simply were not there.
5.) The runway had no closed markings. I observed no visual issues with it. I landed and got my *** chewed. I caused no conflict with any other aircraft and no damage to their precious grass (flybaby on big J3 tires)

The people chewing my *** had no answer for how I was supposed to have known. They had decided things were too wet, pulled the flagmen, and failed to put markers on the runway indicating the field was closed.

I continue to love aviation just fine without them & have not had any issues with being "that guy" at any other fly in.
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It's not for everyone. Have a nice day.
 
luvflyin said:
Well...nah, it would probably require a prop strike engine teardown.:incazzato: I wasn't thinking the guy ran out in front of him. Just on the edge and flagged him in and he slowed and turned off just because the guy told him to when he had room to keep going. Just curious now, how long an interval do you guys shoot for and do you do the left side right side thing.
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Yeah, there was no choice. But lead had a "spirited discussion" with the head of the flaggers. :D

When you split up a flight, yes you do the left side/right side alternating. But for the mass events, you have to land in formation. Many times 3 ship, so lead needs to be on the centerline. We have also done 4 ship "diamond drop" where you are in a diamond, and about 10 feet up, you call "4 drop." Then 4 in the slot pulls power and touches down, which gives immediate separate and the 3 ships lands in formation
 
EdFred said:
Why the blind allegiance where Blakesburg can never, EVER, make a mistake?
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I didn't say they don't make mistakes, I've seen plenty of issues there. I said it's not for everyone.

It works for everyone who follows the rules. No flagmen, you don't land. Maybe they need to make that more clear in their rules or as Jesse mentioned, they could put X's on the runway. Should they have yelled at him? Probably not, but they deal with a lot of risk and they do get moody. Again, not for everyone!

In this case, the thread was started about using flags at a fly-in. I pulled up some of the rules this morning.

"Antique Airfield’s main runway runs N-S and is 2350 ft in length. During the fly-in our E-W runway is closed and used strictly for a taxiway and aircraft parking."
"Once on final approach into Antique Airfield watch for the flagmen at the approach end of the runway and follow his signals. If he is waving his flag up in the air it is directed at you, the landing aircraft."
"The flagmen will direct you (flag held low and pointed at you) to hold on taxiway, taxi into position and hold until cleared for takeoff. Once given the green flag for takeoff do not delay, initiate your takeoff immediately as there may be traffic landing behind you. Use of smoke system (for aircraft so equipped) on takeoff is forbidden !!"
 
jesse said:
Yes, at Blakesburg. How do they clearly tell you? Did you even read what I wrote? Lets try again...

The people chewing my *** had no answer for how I was supposed to have known. They had decided things were too wet, pulled the flagmen, and failed to put markers on the runway indicating the field was closed.

I continue to love aviation just fine without them & have not had any issues with being "that guy" at any other fly in.
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No, I didn't read everything you wrote! Sorry, I was on my phone. I was surprised because every time the airfield is open, I've seen flagmen out there, from sunrise to sunset.

Sorry you had that experience and I agree it was excessive. It's a shame because it's such a unique place. They attract airplanes you won't see anywhere else. I believe you went in the year they called it "Lakesburg". I chose not to fly up from Texas that year due to the weather. Sounds like I didn't miss much.
 
Palmpilot said:
I just pulled up the rules on their Web site, and I can't find anywhere that it says that.

https://antiqueairfieldia27.com/blakesburg-fly-in/airfield-rules/
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Yeah, it doesn't say it clearly, but it does say "Once on final approach into Antique Airfield watch for the flagmen at the approach end of the runway and follow his signals." It could be argued, and apparently was, that no flagmen, no clearance to land. That being said, I probably would have done exactly what Jesse did.
 
Had the same problem with police at night. Came up on an accident, multiple first responder vehicles with emergency lights flashing. In the middle of the chaos someone is waving a pair of flashlights around. After several minutes of random gestures, I try to pull around slowly. Get to the cop and he rips me a new one for ignoring his signals.

Got no problem following a flagman, but am not a mind reader. If someone is going to assume that role, they better be competent. That means clear, unambiguous signals.
 
Probably shouldn't get involved but the whole flag thing sounds like a dubious solution to a problem that doesn't exist. The AIM has procedures to follow at untowered airports and how patterns work for nordo planes. A flag introduces way too much ambiguity. At the minimum at least use a lightgun.. but if the airport is busy enough to require "control" then why not just tower it??

Additionally, do the flag people have the same, or comparable, level of training and experience as the actual ATC folks have? I certainly wouldn't trust a random Joe Shmo waving a flag at me. The OP's experience is case and point.
 
jesse said:
+1, they are dumbasses.

I flew there about ten years ago and read the procedure in advance. Guess what? Nobody was running flags like they said they would be. No airplanes were in the pattern. No closed markers were on the runway. I circled for a bit and saw nobody making any attempt to indicate anything to me. The procedure didn't say what the hell to do if the flagman weren't there. So, I land my airplane (a 900 lb tailwheel) & then had multiple people chewing my *** about how I just landed on their closed runway (which they didn't indicate via any standard means that it was closed, no X) and that it is too soft/wet for them to allow me to depart (I had no problem landing and caused no damage). Refused to allow me to depart. I had to get a ride home via car and retrieve my airplane about a week later. I don't recommend & will not return.
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I'm curious how they prevented you from departing. Physically blocking you? Or did they actually NOTAM the runway closed at that point? Because I can see a whole bunch of issues if they physically prevented you from departing an open runway.
 
RussR said:
I'm curious how they prevented you from departing. Physically blocking you? Or did they actually NOTAM the runway closed at that point? Because I can see a whole bunch of issues if they physically prevented you from departing an open runway.
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Verbally. The airport is private property. It was not important enough to me to disrespect the desires of the property owner. Had my property, or myself been at substantial risk, sure...but, in this case, I let them make an ass out of themselves and remained civil.
 
jesse said:
Nobody was running flags like they said they would be.
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Custom in this situation, the airport NOTAMed to have control becomes an uncontrolled field. If you post a notam saying you're going to have a flagman and decide to allow no landings, either mark the runway closed or have a flagman waving everyone away. Otherwise, you're creating the situation by making it look like an uncontrolled field.

Jesse, YNTA
 
Absent NOTAM or some kind of briefing, I'd ignore the guy with the flags - WTF is he, and why rely on him? It's like the guy who stops in traffic to let you make that left turn - and you get t-boned by the guy passing him on the right. It's on you. . .
 
I like the way they do it at TripleTree. They have a tower, (WWII vintage) operated by volunteer ATC personnel. (during flyins)
They also have published arrival procedure. All you have to do is follow procedure, be on altitude, be on speed, be on frequency, and shut up. They'll call you when they're ready to hear from you. All you have to do is keep your eyes outside, and avoid other traffic.
They might tell you to be careful because the runway is wet, or mabe have you touch down beyond the mid point (7000' runway). But I've yet to have them just leave, and not tell anyone.
 
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