My student got lost...

[Matthew]

I count 5 gps, and do not forget your parachute, and a rubber ducky.

Doug

Or the AOPA pilot's knife.

 

[Mafoo]

Assumes facts not in evidence. And you continue to blithely ignore the purpose of the lesson and seek to defend the incorrect answer that you continue to provide.

It's not the incorrect answer, and I said right at the beginning that if he wanted me to figure out where I am with a map, I would demonstrate I could do that. If the setup was "you realize you went the wrong way, and you are going to run out of fuel before you can get to an airport". Then I would have done something completely different. In that case, I would figure out where I was before I landed in a field.

The scenario was "what would you do", and when that collection of events happens to me, my decision as PIC is to safely land at the closest airport.

If that's what I would do, any answer other then that, is the incorrect answer.

It might take nothing short of a cabin fire for you to deviate, but every pilots different. I have a right to my "this is to many bad things happening all at once, let's safely get on the ground and regroup" threshold being lower then yours.

For someone who seems to be worried about aviators and there aircraft littering the countryside, you have a strange approach to risk mitigation.

I am not one to succumb to peer pressure. So don't worry, I won't get into a situation I don't want to handle, and then think "but Wayne will be disappointed in me", and keep flying when my gut tells me to land.

 

[EppyGA]

I would pick option 3 as well. I would pick the closest airport that is non towered, as everyone else should assume no one has a radio.

Why not a towered airport? Enter the pattern and look for a light signal? After all it is an emergency.

 

[Everskyward]

and I am sure Jesse's student will be the same way... digging out charts he has not used much after passing his PPL, figuring out what the VOR should be set to, making sure he has everything setup right. There will be a lot more heads down flying for the short term.

Why would you assume that? There are plenty of pilots who fly who learned without GPS but fly with it now. They haven't forgotten how to fly without it.

 

[Mafoo]

Why would you assume that? There are plenty of pilots who fly who learned without GPS but fly with it now. They haven't forgotten how to fly without it.

because there are two options. One is no one does a single thing different.

The other is some people freak out and fly less safely because the entire GPS system went down.

Assuming the second option losses me nothing, other then a little bit of fuel and time. I even get to say I landed at a new airport, and met some new people at the FBO because of it.

 

[Mafoo]

Why not a towered airport? Enter the pattern and look for a light signal? After all it is an emergency.

I guess it would depend on how unsafe I felt it was to fly without the panel. If I felt at any moment my situation could get worse, I would do that.

If I just didn't want to enter class B airspace, and needed to get out of the sky, I would probably deviate to an un-towered one. If the towered one was 5 miles, and the closest no towered one was 50 miles, I would probably land at the towered one.

In my limited experience, it seems to be the other way around most of the time.

 

[ja_user]

Or the AOPA pilot's knife.

We know you have the Tom Cruise bobble-head on too...

 

[Matthew]

...and the Sporty's Landing Pattern Computer.

And as long as I'm in that 150 - if the GPS constellation craps out, and all the other airplanes start falling out of the sky, I'll still be tooling along with my mechanical E6B: the Aluminum Whiz Wheel of Death.

 

[ja_user]

...and the Sporty's Landing Pattern Computer.

And as long as I'm in that 150 - if the GPS constellation craps out, and all the other airplanes start falling out of the sky, I'll still be tooling along with my mechanical E6B: the Aluminum Whiz Wheel of Death.

That will work out well, in case you ever need to club a baby Seal with it or something...

 

[MAKG1]

I would pick option 3 as well. I would pick the closest airport that is non towered, as everyone else should assume no one has a radio.

An inflight fire very clearly qualifies as an emergency, and 14 CFR 91.3(b) applies. You may have to justify a decision to bust Class B (or C or D), but it's one of your options if, for instance, there is no emergency equipment available at the local nontowered airports. Or because the fire doesn't go out when you cut the master and you happen to be transiting the surface area of Class B.

Land where you need to in an emergency, not where the regulations say. Then notify the NTSB (an inflight fire is one of the mandatory conditions -- 49 CFR 830.5(a)(4)) and, if ATC asks, write a report for 14 CFR 91.3(c).

You should not assume all traffic at a towered airport has a radio. Emergencies do happen. And there are lost-comms procedures for IFR traffic in particular to continue to the destination without a radio.

 

[Mafoo]

An inflight fire very clearly qualifies as an emergency, and 14 CFR 91.3(b) applies. You may have to justify a decision to bust Class B (or C or D), but it's one of your options if, for instance, there is no emergency equipment available at the local nontowered airports. Or because the fire doesn't go out when you cut the master and you happen to be transiting the surface area of Class B.

Land where you need to in an emergency, not where the regulations say. Then notify the NTSB (an inflight fire is one of the mandatory conditions -- 49 CFR 830.5(a)(4)) and, if ATC asks, write a report for 14 CFR 91.3(c).

You should not assume all traffic at a towered airport has a radio. Emergencies do happen. And there are lost-comms procedures for IFR traffic in particular to continue to the destination without a radio.

Thanks. This is good to know. I guess any indication of a fire, regardless of if I think I know why it happened, and if I think I have ended its risk, should be treated as an emergency.

 

[MAKG1]

Do keep in mind that 14 CFR 91.3(b) says you can violate any rule to the extent necessary to deal with the emergency. So, you still might get in hot water if you overflew a serviceable Class D on the way to that Class B, unless you had some reason to skip it.

 

[Matthew]

I've never been on fire - but I don't think I'd spend a whole lot of time looking for the best airport.

 

[wabower]

I can affirm that even the slightest whiff of something burning (even if it's a couple of drops of dried windshield sealant that dripped on the air duct a few months back) can create a totally different perspective regarding a suitable landing spot.

I've never been on fire - but I don't think I'd spend a whole lot of time looking for the best airport.

 

[DeeG]

I just love these assumptions, in which users of GPS, will always just blindly follow the magenta line. Yep...............it's a good reason for all of us to do away with GPS, 'cause we'll probably be better off.

Wait a minute, for some reason, I've never been lost, thanks to my many GPSs over these years.

L.Adamson

GPS is a great tool. But it is not perfect. I've seen my GPS tell me I'm -here- when I know for a fact that I'm 15 miles away.


I've flown with people who are so engrossed at programming their course that they aren't looking out the window amd flying the plane. and yes, There are a lot of people out there that 'blindly follow' their GPSs'.

No one is saying to do away with them. I just believe that one should not become dependant on it.

 

[Mafoo]

No one is saying to do away with them. I just believe that one should not become dependant on it.

I don't think anyone is suggesting someone should. That's the issue. Some assume if I wish to use GPS to figure out where I am, I must be solely dependent on it.

One thing I have been doing with my 430, is look for the airports I am passing when my GPS is telling me one should be out the window. This is to make sure the GPS is still on course (and also to help me learn how to spot airports).

 

[Jaybird180]

I can affirm that even the slightest whiff of something burning (even if it's a couple of drops of dried windshield sealant that dripped on the air duct a few months back) can create a totally different perspective regarding a suitable landing spot.

I've experienced the whiff of 'something burning'. Yes, the adrenaline gets going, but I heard a saying that there's no emergency that panic cannot make worse.

I don't think anyone is suggesting someone should. That's the issue. Some assume if I wish to use GPS to figure out where I am, I must be solely dependent on it.

One thing I have been doing with my 430, is look for the airports I am passing when my GPS is telling me one should be out the window. This is to make sure the GPS is still on course (and also to help me learn how to spot airports).

It irks me to no end, when my GPS says I should overfly a VOR (for example) and the darn thing is off my left wing.

 

[MAKG1]

That's great, it will help you spot problems.

Now, make sure you do the same thing with your sectional chart.

 

[Threefingeredjack]

I've never been on fire - but I don't think I'd spend a whole lot of time looking for the best airport.

The only time I was on fire I knew where the nearest airport was...... 450 miles away. Kinda increases your fire fighting enthusiasm.

 

[Mafoo]

That's great, it will help you spot problems.

Now, make sure you do the same thing with your sectional chart.

Yep... page 7:

I like flying by looking out the window, and using my map. I will hook the iPad up to the Yoke, and turn off the plane in settings, just to have the sectional and not need to deal with paper (I have a paper chart with me as well).

EDIT: I actually have two. New York and Montreal, because KLEB is close to the edge of New York.

 

[spiderweb]

I think we will need 500 posts, minimum, before we can all agree.

 

[Matthew]

I disagree.

 

[Ghery]

I listed half a dozen things I would do first. Call Flight following would be one.

I know most all non towered airports are on frequencies of 122 - 123. I would start listening for the chatter, and if I hear a strong one, I know I am close to that airport.

And of course, VOR. However if GPS is broken, why not break that as well?

You ought to hear 122.8 on a nice day in western Washington. Strong signals from many 10s of miles away. Your idea won't work.

That might work well for determining your tri-state area. On a typical day you'll hear "strong" transmissions from airports 80 miles or more. It's not uncommon here to hear "strong" transmissions on CTAF frequencies at pattern altitude from airports in the middle of Iowa (150 miles).

Same in western Washington.

One thing I have always liked about pilot training, is it's real world. I fly for fun, and I will never ever fly, without at least 2 GPS's. I can't imagine I will fly much at all without 3.

There are single points of failure in the GPS system that will knock all three of your recievers off line at the same time. And you would miss out on three of the four planes in our club that don't have GPS, including my favorite cross country machine, our C-182.

I landed, because none of the GPS's in the entire world are working, and I don't wish to be in the air when that event happens.

It has nothing to do with my ability to navigate without GPS.

You severly limit yourself for no reason. We fought wars with hundreds of planes in the air at the same time long before GPS was dreamed of.

No, I am not arguing the use of GPS. So let me ask you this.

If your flying, and all the sudden your 430 went out in your plane. Then you check your iPhone and iPad, and get nothing. Is all you are going to think is you lost GPS?

You should have checked the NOTAMs before you took off. GPS failures are a common event, and it has nothing to do with the equipment in your plane.

IMO, GPS should be a requirement for every private pilot. If you have valid reasons for why not, then enlighten me. Perhaps you agree???

Learn in three of the four planes in our club and you won't have the opportunity to learn GPS navigation. Now what are you going to do?

Yea, I have stood on it, and watched them roll a 747 onto it. It does not have a single screw in it. All wooden pegs.

The purpose for it, is to bombard aircraft with different types of transmissions, to test that the shielding on the aircraft holds up.

They needed all wood, so the structure would not interfere with the test.

OK, you've been on the trestle. Nice. What does that have to do with this discussion? Or did I miss something? Might have, it's well past midnight in Dublin and I really should get some sleep.

I don't think anyone is suggesting someone should. That's the issue. Some assume if I wish to use GPS to figure out where I am, I must be solely dependent on it.

One thing I have been doing with my 430, is look for the airports I am passing when my GPS is telling me one should be out the window. This is to make sure the GPS is still on course (and also to help me learn how to spot airports).

You are the one who said that you wouldn't fly without a GPS. What other conclusion might I draw from that?

Back to the original post. Yes, Jesse is evil. Sneaky. Mean. And it sounds like he does a good job of preparing his students for real world flying. The DG was off? I'm more surprised when it stays "correct" for any significant period of time. They process. Mafoo, look that up. You should understand this concept well. A little paranoia can be a healthy thing. I'm constantly checking mine against the magnetic compass because I know they drift. And the more you manuever, the worse it can be. That's life. And GPS systems fail. Either due to problems in the aircraft or outside it. Am I going to land just because the GPS went TU? No, I have other navigation tools in the plane and I'll use them. In fact, the GPS was probably a backup anyway. And before you call me an old fart who doesn't like technology, I'll mention that I work for a rather large successful technology company and am the President of my professional society. I like technology. I use technology. But I know it can fail, so I like have multiple tools. And if I have a total electrical failure? I can fly VFR just fine without the electrons. And have done so. No problem, the engine keeps running (love those old fashioned magnetos). Listen to these experienced CFIs. I do. I may be instrument rated, but all that means is that I have even more to learn. You seem to have a problem with that concept. Calm down and listen. You'll learn more that way.

 

[MAKG1]

Hehe, I remember the first time I flew into KHAF, which is the nearest nontowered airport to KPAO, using the usual 122.8 CTAF. I was a student pilot, and this was my first nontowered approach. I flip the radio to 122.8, and immediately hear "JUMPERS AWAAAYYYY!" You can imagine my consternation. The last thing I wanted to do was dice some poor innocent meat missile, and I really didn't think I could spot one prior to the parachute opening (and I was descending from 3500 feet at the time). It turns out the jumpers were at KWVI, 50 miles away, on the same frequency. Very loud and clear, as though they were on the same airport. The drop zones were NOTAMed for KWVI, but obviously not for KHAF.

 

[ChrisK]

Oh good a thread diversion.

I was doing clearing turns for step turn practice pre checkride. On my first turn I found myself 3/4 of a mile from a jumper.

I said to myself "huh, I guess this is why you do clearing turns" and calmly turned away. There was no danger, but it was pretty darn freaky. Almost as freaky as the giant ass balloon I almost climbed into on departure the week before my check ride

 

[Fearless Tower]

You ought to hear 122.8 on a nice day in western Washington. Strong signals from many 10s of miles away. Your idea won't work.

His idea won't work in New England where he is currently flying either.

When I was flying out of Newport, RI you could routinely hear very clear transmissions on the CTAF (122.8) from several other uncontrolled fields many miles away.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Gentlemen I'm not a pilot but if I WAS a pilot I would want every resource available at my disposal in terms of navigation. That means being proficient with GPS, VOR, NDB's etc.........

Funny you should say that.....in the maritime domain, we have a saying (also published by NOAA and the USCG on just about every navigational publication - "The prudent mariner will not rely soley on any single aid to navigation"

Those words have served me well on both the water and in the air.

 

[TMetzinger]

The point of the exercise was to stress the student, make him lost, and see/teach him how to handle it.

Mafoo, I agree 100% that if you're having multiple systems failures (GPS/VOR/???) in your airplane you should land at the first opportunity. Better to sort that stuff out on the ground.

But you still need to find a place to land. In your neck of the woods and in mine, if you climb to 3000 AGL and fly in any direction for 30 minutes, you're going to find an airport. Not true in many places.

The point is that you should always have a good idea in your head of where you are. That's part of situational awareness. With that idea and a chart, you can (if you're careful) get unlost fairly quickly, particularly if you still have things like the VOR system available to you. And I'm not implying that you wouldn't have this awareness. The point of the exercise is to test it, and to see how well you respond to the stress, particularly when you have to detect and correct your own errors in perception in addition the the equipment failures.

I learned to fly before GPS was commonplace. I still remember thinking that the KLN-89b was amazing because I could fly GPS approaches in the clouds with it. But I've been flying along and lost GPS signal for a few minutes at a time, on ALL three GPS (two panel, one handheld) at the same time. The US Gov't has not kept up the constellation as well as promised (big ****ing surprise) so there are outages. If my route is on an airway with VORs defining it, then the NAV radios are tuned and identified even if I'm not using the CDIs for guidance. If I'm on a GPS route, then I'm marking my position on the chart every 10 minutes, (or if I'm using my Nexus, I'm noting the time at each waypoint).

You'll note I'm not accusing you of being over reliant on GPS. And I'm not calling you names or bashing you or anything. I think there's a lot of overreacting all around. I believe you missed the point of the exercise at first, and then others missed your point when you indicated that if all that stuff was actually failing, you'd land. And it's turned into an amusing and frustrating downward spiral.

Can I ask you if you agree that stressing a student by putting him in Jesse's scenario, and asking him to suspend his disbelief, and to navigate with the tools he had left is a useful thing?

Best wishes,

 

[Fearless Tower]

Yep...............it's a good reason for all of us to do away with GPS, 'cause we'll probably be better off.

You don't give up do you?

I'll be honest here....I really have not had the time to follow this entire thread, but I have seen you thrown that line out over and over here on this board.......and as often as you claim to never have been lost.......I have never actually seen anyone SAY that (at least not in the last 10 years).

What most of us do believe is that GPS is a single source (and having multiple GPS units is not the same as having multiple sources). And as a single source, it is not infallible.

GPS should not be ignored from an instruction standpoint, just like other methods need to be taught as well. Like the prudent mariner.....a prudent aviator should be capable of using multiple methods to get from point A to point B.

 

[GCA319]

Or, even if you only have 1...

True that. Itll just take a bit more fumbling around:wink2:

 

[Mafoo]

Can I ask you if you agree that stressing a student by putting him in Jesse's scenario, and asking him to suspend his disbelief, and to navigate with the tools he had left is a useful thing?

Best wishes,

Yes. Somewhere in this sea of posts I even said I would have liked being part of it.

I think I would have passed as well, as the first things that entered my mind, had nothing to do with GPS.

I would have climbed, looked around and compared it to my sectional. If I was still lost, I would have then called flight services, they most likely would have told me where I was, and it would be over. I am found.

He would have then said "why didn't you use your Nav2", and I would have said "damn! next time", and everyone would be happy.

 

[Mafoo]

His idea won't work in New England where he is currently flying either.

When I was flying out of Newport, RI you could routinely hear very clear transmissions on the CTAF (122.8) from several other uncontrolled fields many miles away.

Seems to. When I am within 5 miles of KVSF, I hear it loud and clear, but the other airports are very hard to hear.

Same for 2-3 other airports I have been to in the area.

 

[wabower]

You still don't understand.

Yes. Somewhere in this sea of posts I even said I would have liked being part of it.

I think I would have passed as well, as the first things that entered my mind, had nothing to do with GPS.

I would have climbed, looked around and compared it to my sectional. If I was still lost, I would have then called flight services, they most likely would have told me where I was, and it would be over. I am found.

He would have then said "why didn't you use your Nav2", and I would have said "damn! next time", and everyone would be happy.

 

[jesse]

Yes. Somewhere in this sea of posts I even said I would have liked being part of it.

I think I would have passed as well, as the first things that entered my mind, had nothing to do with GPS.

I would have climbed, looked around and compared it to my sectional. If I was still lost, I would have then called flight services, they most likely would have told me where I was, and it would be over. I am found.

He would have then said "why didn't you use your Nav2", and I would have said "damn! next time", and everyone would be happy.

I doubt flight service has the ability to do a DF Steer anymore. There are parts of Nebraska where you'd have to get pretty high to get controllers to find you on radar. Parts of South Dakota where you'd need oxygen to get high enough for them to see you on radar.

The answer just always depends

 

[Mafoo]

Or, even if you only have 1...

A nice trick on foreflight, is to put a waypoint on the VOR you have dialed in, figure out your heading, and fly to it slowly.

Then move your nav 1 to the next VOR, and figure out where you are in relation to it. Hold your finger over it in foreflight, select it, and you get a straight line between the two.

Now you can bend that line, so your heading, and the VOR coordinates are lined up on the sectional, and let go.

Now you can hold two fingers down on the map, and use it as a ruler that will give you heading to anywhere you want to go, and it will include time and fuel burn.

If you still have winds aloft in there, it does all the calculations for heading as well.

Oh wait, my GPS died.... I must no have a clue what I am talking about. Never-mind.

 

[Mafoo]

I doubt flight service has the ability to do a DF Steer anymore. There are parts of Nebraska where you'd have to get pretty high to get controllers to find you on radar. Parts of South Dakota where you'd need oxygen to get high enough for them to see you on radar.

The answer just always depends

ok, then you tell me before I make the call "Flight services could not find you", and then I am on to whatever the next thing I will try, to not be lost in the sky.

The point is, I suspect I should do what I would do if I was alone. I should not say to myself "Jesse wants me to find my location by using the sectional and landmarks" and then just jump to that as my first option, because I think that's what you want me to do.

Also, tell me if you end up lost, your 430 goes black (meaning power failure and not GPS outage), and you have a smartphone in your pocket with GPS, you're not even going to look at it?

Come on, lets all be honest with ourselves here.

You don't have to trust it 100%, but if it tells you your over roads that fit the pattern of roads your over, I think it's safe to say it found you. I have absolutely no issues with you failing it as well. But jumping on my ass for looking at it (not blaming you personally for that), is being a little disconnected from reality.

 

[jesse]

ok, then you tell me before I make the call "Flight services could not find you", and then I am on to whatever the next thing I will try, to not be lost in the sky.

The point is, I suspect I should do what I would do if I was alone. I should not say to myself "Jesse wants me to find my location by using the sectional and landmarks" and then just jump to that as my first option, because I think that's what you want me to do.

Also, tell me if you end up lost, your 430 goes black (meaning power failure and not GPS outage), and you have a smartphone in your pocket with GPS, you're not even going to look at it?

Come on, lets all be honest with ourselves here.

You don't have to trust it 100%, but if it tells you your over roads that fit the pattern of roads your over, I think it's safe to say it found you. I have absolutely no issues with you failing it as well. But jumping on my ass for looking at it (not blaming you personally for that), is being a little disconnected from reality.

I'm not sure what you're talking about? I was simply trying to educate you by telling you that flight service does not have radar..and to the best of my knowledge they no longer have the ability to do a DF Steer. It used to be they could get an approximate idea of your location via nothing but your com radio signal transmitting.

Really I don't know what any of this is about. You keep going on assuming someone is attacking A when really they're trying to point out there is a problem with B and you're so damn concerned about A you can't get the important messages.

Why keep going about what you've went on with for the last umpteen pages? Why not instead learn what a DF Steer is and the history. It's more useful knowledge, although antiquated.

Flight Service just isn't what it used to be.

 

[Mafoo]

Really I don't know what any of this is about. You keep going on assuming someone is attacking A when really they're trying to point out there is a problem with B and you're so damn concerned about A you can't get the important messages.

The second half of my post was not related to the first. I was just talking at that point.

However I am done with that. I will not be visiting this thread again.

 

[Fearless Tower]

However I am done with that. I will not be visiting this thread again.

Aw, c'mon!

How is this thread ever going to make it to 500 replies if you give up now

 

[Matthew]

Somewhere, buried in all these pages, I mentioned my story of my CFI's version of this exercise. The only difference was mine was at night, and I wasn't allowed to take off the hood until I reached the airport I was trying to find.

I do remember the flight very well, and I remember saying "Game on!" when given the challenge.

Keep up the good work, Jesse.