My student got lost...

If the student did it right yesterday and the day before and was up to speed during ground instruction and discussions, what should the instructor do differently when he reproduces the same situation the next time? Is a mistake or brain cramp by a student always the instructor's fault?

Experience doesn't always equate to quality of instruction. I know several experienced instructors that I wouldn't take instruction from. I'm not inferring you are a poor instructor but rather the instruction provided may not have been satisfactory for this specific individual.
 
Then I would have found the closest strip of runway, and landed. I DO NOT want to be in the air when GPS goes out.

Not sure the point of the exercise. Is it to build skills you will never use, or to make sure your student knows what to do with things go wrong?[/QUOTE]
Don't be one of those guys who freaks out when the GPS fails. It's only one of many tools in the bag and it also happens to be one of the more fragile systems available to us. Challenge yourself and fly without it from time to time...A good/safe VFR pilot should be able to use EVERYTHING available to him/her at all times whether that be GPS, Nav radios, or an interstate highway (plus following roads is alot more fun than following magenta lines).
 
Nothing in the training environment is 100% real-world. It's a stress inducer, not a perfect scenario.

IR students and instructors aren't out there really running into terrain just to see how CFIT feels. LOL.



Look at fuel burn numbers carefully vs. distance covered.

When/if lost, covering MORE ground usually isn't smart, but staying aloft longer may be. Going faster just changes what you're seeing out the window more.
Well...They are pushing for real-world scenario based training.:D
 
In the setup, he was under the hood for 30 minutes. He could not follow along. The primary error here, is the student did not look at his compas to reset the gauges. Thanks to this thread, I will never do that :).

Never say never...I'm a Commercial pilot/CFI and I still make stupid elementary errors from time to time:wink2:. So do High time airline captains...
 
Don't be one of those guys who freaks out when the GPS fails. It's only one of many tools in the bag and it also happens to be one of the more fragile systems available to us. Challenge yourself and fly without it from time to time...A good/safe VFR pilot should be able to use EVERYTHING available to him/her at all times whether that be GPS, Nav radios, or an interstate highway (plus following roads is alot more fun than following magenta lines).

My comment had nothing to do with my abilities.

It had to do with me being lost, with no way of knowing how busy of an airspace I am about to enter, with a bunch of other pilots who just lost there GPS.

The scenario was he entire satellite grid went down, not that my GPS failed. If Jesse had said "the batteries had died", or "You reach for them, and realize you left your flight bag on the tarmac", it would be a completely different issue, because then only I lost GPS. Not the entire world.
 
My comment had nothing to do with my abilities.

It had to do with me being lost, with no way of knowing how busy of an airspace I am about to enter, with a bunch of other pilots who just lost there GPS.

The scenario was he entire satellite grid went down, not that my GPS failed. If Jesse had said "the batteries had died", or "You reach for them, and realize you left your flight bag on the tarmac", it would be a completely different issue, because then only I lost GPS. Not the entire world.

:rolleyes:

Try explaining to the FAA why you just landed at KDCA on a busy afternoon without clearance because your GPS died and you were afraid that everyone's GPS died at the same time.

Better bet - find a known reference point, navigate toward it, and then use pilotage and a chart to figure out where you are, where you're going and come up with a plan.

That is, assuming you don't know where you are to begin with. With GPS, sometimes that is easy to do.
 
Landing at an unfamiliar airport when you don't even know what airport it is and you just see it and land is not safe and can result in certificate action taken against you. That is something you see in an emergency. If your justification for an emergency is a GPS failure then you'll be looking at a 709 ride on navigation when you explain that.

Do you not understand that you're expected to be able to perform to your certificate level? Do you know what the PTS tasks are for the certificate you're working on?

If you cannot operate without a GPS then you are not ready to be a private pilot. If you happen to slip past a DPE in that state then that's just too bad. The day you break regulations and land at an airport with an airshow in progress simply because you lost GPS signal will result in the FAA re-evaluating whether or not you should be a private pilot.

Being able to navigate without a GPS is not an option if you want to be a FAA certificated private pilot.

In 2005, a flight instructor (on one of these forums) ranted for days............calling GPS nothing but a seductive toy. Two years ago, an instructor told me, that if I wasn't firing up the OBSs before every cross couuntry........then I had no right to be flying. Where do you fit in?

IMO, GPS should be a requirement for every private pilot. If you have valid reasons for why not, then enlighten me. Perhaps you agree???

I still tell new students (an no, I'm not a CFI), that if a flight instructor tells you to throw the GPS in the back seat, with a smirk on their face, then throw them out!

I like arguing the finer points of GPS with instructors. I've known many instructors and still do. I'm just never impressed with any flight instructor who devalues a GPS, even by a little bit. These are modern times, with modern equipment, and many of these 1000+ hour instructors need to get up to date.

So.........let's change the bold face lettering, that I highlighted. How about "If you cannot operate a GPS, then you are not ready to be a private pilot."

Yes, I like that. It's because "that" private pilot will have much more real time information, and a precision handle on location, than any of those early day pilots who preceeded him/her.

L.Adamson
 
It had to do with me being lost, with no way of knowing how busy of an airspace I am about to enter, with a bunch of other pilots who just lost there GPS.
You realize that 20 years ago very few airplanes had GPS and the airspace was just as busy.

Probably the first thing that would enter my mind if I felt totally lost (temporarily misplaced) would be trying to use the VOR, and climbing if there was not good reception. I'm not only talking about me right now but me many years ago when I had low time. However that is how I was trained since there was no other navigation device in the airplane. I don't think many people are trained to use it as much these days. We had someone who was getting his private come up to our cockpit. He was training in an airplane with a G1000. We were explaining all the various displays but when we got to the VOR he said that he was a little embarrassed to say that he really didn't know how to use it. :confused:
 
:rolleyes:

Try explaining to the FAA why you just landed at KDCA on a busy afternoon without clearance because your GPS died and you were afraid that everyone's GPS died at the same time.

Better bet - find a known reference point, navigate toward it, and then use pilotage and a chart to figure out where you are, where you're going and come up with a plan.

That is, assuming you don't know where you are to begin with. With GPS, sometimes that is easy to do.

I just love these assumptions, in which users of GPS, will always just blindly follow the magenta line. Yep...............it's a good reason for all of us to do away with GPS, 'cause we'll probably be better off.

Wait a minute, for some reason, I've never been lost, thanks to my many GPSs over these years.

L.Adamson
 
:rolleyes:

Try explaining to the FAA why you just landed at KDCA on a busy afternoon without clearance because your GPS died and you were afraid that everyone's GPS died at the same time.

Better bet - find a known reference point, navigate toward it, and then use pilotage and a chart to figure out where you are, where you're going and come up with a plan.

That is, assuming you don't know where you are to begin with. With GPS, sometimes that is easy to do.

I wasn't "afraid" everyone else's GPS died, I was told it. Jesse set up the scenario, not me.

And again, why does everyone look at the many things that have gone wrong, lock onto the word GPS, and then assume I have no clue how to use everything else.

My choice to land in the first place had little to do with GPS.
 
You realize that 20 years ago very few airplanes had GPS and the airspace was just as busy.

Probably the first thing that would enter my mind if I felt totally lost (temporarily misplaced) would be trying to use the VOR, and climbing if there was not good reception.

I was under the assumption (wrong I guess), that the VOR was down. If I had not come to that conclusion, I would have done the exact same thing.

And there is a huge difference between pilots 20 years ago who never used GPS, and being in the sky today when it goes down.
 
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How reliant should a pilot become relative to use of GPS? Is it your position that pilots maintain sufficient situational awareness to determine their position if the screen goes dark? If so, what evidence leads you to this conclusion? If you've never flown as a CFI and turned off the screen, what makes you think that pilots are not overly-dependent on GPS as a navigational tool?

In 2005, a flight instructor (on one of these forums) ranted for days............calling GPS nothing but a seductive toy. Two years ago, an instructor told me, that if I wasn't firing up the OBSs before every cross couuntry........then I had no right to be flying. Where do you fit in?

IMO, GPS should be a requirement for every private pilot. If you have valid reasons for why not, then enlighten me. Perhaps you agree???

I still tell new students (an no, I'm not a CFI), that if a flight instructor tells you to throw the GPS in the back seat, with a smirk on their face, then throw them out!

I like arguing the finer points of GPS with instructors. I've known many instructors and still do. I'm just never impressed with any flight instructor who devalues a GPS, even by a little bit. These are modern times, with modern equipment, and many of these 1000+ hour instructors need to get up to date.

So.........let's change the bold face lettering, that I highlighted. How about "If you cannot operate a GPS, then you are not ready to be a private pilot."

Yes, I like that. It's because "that" private pilot will have much more real time information, and a precision handle on location, than any of those early day pilots who preceeded him/her.

L.Adamson
 
You realize that 20 years ago very few airplanes had GPS and the airspace was just as busy.

One more, and I'm gone. Yes, airspace was just as busy. Why do I like GPS, and especially synthetic vision? Because my sideline is keeping track of CFIT accidents, that date back to the 1930's. I have specific reasons, as to why I really got interested in this. Had something to do with a jet airliner crashing into the mountain ravine above the house. It wasn't pretty. In this day and age, it no longer has to happen. GPS & associated products will be the navigation systems that make all the difference.
 
How reliant should a pilot become relative to use of GPS? Is it your position that pilots maintain sufficient situational awareness to determine their position if the screen goes dark? If so, what evidence leads you to this conclusion? If you've never flown as a CFI and turned off the screen, what makes you think that pilots are not overly-dependent on GPS as a navigational tool?

A worthwhile instructor, will teach a student to use GPS along with other resources. A good instructor will teach a student to DO much more, than just follow a magenta line. But a great instructor will show the students to true benefits of a good moving map system. Unfortunately, many instructors are not really up to date..........as to the use of glass. I know that for a fact.
 
How reliant should a pilot become relative to use of GPS? Is it your position that pilots maintain sufficient situational awareness to determine their position if the screen goes dark? If so, what evidence leads you to this conclusion? If you've never flown as a CFI and turned off the screen, what makes you think that pilots are not overly-dependent on GPS as a navigational tool?

The question should be what's worse. A sky where no one uses GPS, or a sky where everyone is overly reliant on one?

I would take the latter every time. I think it makes absolute sense to know every navigational aid at your disposal equally well, and I plan to train to the point where that's true, but the trending fatality statistics would indicate that GPS is a net good in the aviation world, even if it creates bad habits.
 
Wait a minute, for some reason, I've never been lost, thanks to my many GPSs over these years.
Funny how I have, and I had a GPS. It said "NO SIGNAL". Interestingly, it never did it before or after.
 
I just love these assumptions, in which users of GPS, will always just blindly follow the magenta line. Yep...............it's a good reason for all of us to do away with GPS, 'cause we'll probably be better off.

Wait a minute, for some reason, I've never been lost, thanks to my many GPSs over these years.

L.Adamson

I wasn't "afraid" everyone else's GPS died, I was told it. Jesse set up the scenario, not me.

And again, why does everyone look at the many things that have gone wrong, lock onto the word GPS, and then assume I have no clue how to use everything else.

My choice to land in the first place had little to do with GPS.

What you guys miss is that I am a huge user of GPS, and flew all over the dang country using nothing but GPS to get there. I'm not anti-GPS at all, I think GPS is a great tool, even as a primary navigation tool.

That said - I have lost GPS before mid-flight, and realized "Oh ****, I don't really know where I am."

So I am not talking out of my butt here, I've been there. I'm not the crusty ol' geezer that thinks these whiz-bang devices are making people complacent. I make fun of people that refer to it as the MLOD (look at some debates between me and a previous CFI about the Magenta Line of Death in the past). But I call a spade a spade - GPS is great, but it should not be the cause of an emergency when its lost.
 
GPS is great, but it should not be the cause of an emergency when its lost.

Again, people lock on one failed system out of several, and say we rely on it.

You seem to miss the point where Com1 is gone, and flight services is no where to be found on Com2.

So I have no radio. I have no VOR. I have no GPS. Yet the only reason I am landing is because GPS is lost.

Sigh....
 
My comment had nothing to do with my abilities.

It had to do with me being lost, with no way of knowing how busy of an airspace I am about to enter, with a bunch of other pilots who just lost there GPS.

The scenario was he entire satellite grid went down, not that my GPS failed. If Jesse had said "the batteries had died", or "You reach for them, and realize you left your flight bag on the tarmac", it would be a completely different issue, because then only I lost GPS. Not the entire world.
Hopefully most of those pilots have their VFR charts out and won't bust the busy airspace you speak of...I mean, for crying out loud, if you need to avoid airpace, dial in a VOR radial (or cross radials if you're lucky enough to have 2-this will tell you exactly where you are on the chart) and back it up with some rough pilotage if you lose your GPS...
 
Again, people lock on one failed system out of several, and say we rely on it.

You seem to miss the point where Com1 is gone, and flight services is no where to be found on Com2.

So I have no radio. I have no VOR. I have no GPS. Yet the only reason I am landing is because GPS is lost.

Sigh....
Uhhhh Que?
 
Again, people lock on one failed system out of several, and say we rely on it.

You seem to miss the point where Com1 is gone, and flight services is no where to be found on Com2.

So I have no radio. I have no VOR. I have no GPS. Yet the only reason I am landing is because GPS is lost.

Sigh....

Same story though - you don't need a radio, VOR or a GPS to safely figure out where you are, and THEN land once you determine that the airport in front of you is actually safe to land at (or a runway at all - for example: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=albuq...=Albuquerque,+Bernalillo,+New+Mexico&t=h&z=16)
 
Hopefully most of those pilots have their VFR charts out and won't bust the busy airspace you speak of...I mean, for crying out loud, if you need to avoid airpace, dial in a VOR radial (or cross radials if you're lucky enough to have 2-this will tell you exactly where you are on the chart) and back it up with some rough pilotage if you lose your GPS...
Or, even if you only have 1... ;)
 
Gentlemen I'm not a pilot but if I WAS a pilot I would want every resource available at my disposal in terms of navigation. That means being proficient with GPS, VOR, NDB's etc.........
 
Same story though - you don't need a radio, VOR or a GPS to safely figure out where you are, and THEN land once you determine that the airport in front of you is actually safe to land at (or a runway at all - for example: http://maps.google.com/maps?q=albuq...=Albuquerque,+Bernalillo,+New+Mexico&t=h&z=16)

That's a poor example, no one is going to get lost in Albuquerque.

Fun fact. Just a few miles NE of that location, is the largest all wooden structure in the world.

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=albu...=Albuquerque,+Bernalillo,+New+Mexico&t=h&z=18

I used to work at AFRL on that base for 7 years.
 
Does that matter?

We're talking about in today or the very near future, whenever Jesse signs him off.

it matters. My reasoning, good or bad, is we just had an event that has caused many pilots who have relied on GPS to start using other systems.

Good or bad, that's what would have happend, and I don't want to be around a lot of traffic when it does.

and I am sure Jesse's student will be the same way... digging out charts he has not used much after passing his PPL, figuring out what the VOR should be set to, making sure he has everything setup right. There will be a lot more heads down flying for the short term.
 
Seen it many times (from the ground). Take Wyoming to the end and you can't miss it.

Yea, I have stood on it, and watched them roll a 747 onto it. It does not have a single screw in it. All wooden pegs.

The purpose for it, is to bombard aircraft with different types of transmissions, to test that the shielding on the aircraft holds up.

They needed all wood, so the structure would not interfere with the test.
 
How 'bout this scenario:

You take off, climb to your initial cruise altitude and head toward your destination (GPS Direct); about 15 miles north of the class Bravo airspace you just left from, you smell and see smoke in the cabin, as the result of an electrical wire shorting to ground where a missing grommet allowed the insulation to wear off.

You kill the Master and look for a place to put the plane down; fields, roads, plenty of places to put it where you probably won't die, but nothing where you won't hurt the plane (and quite possibly, the precious persons inside). Right away, it becomes apparent that the smoke has abated with no electricity to continue it.

Do you (1) continue to your destination, inside a Class B, around an hour and a half ahead; (2) Land immediately on the most convenient and appealing farmer's field; or (3) Land at the nearest appropriate airport?

Bear in mind - when the Master was switched off, you lost the Magenta Line of Love on the 430. You have neither an iPad nor a portable GPS, and NAV radio is not an option because, if you turn on the Master switch, smoke and flames will ensue.
--

I chose option 3, which required using my Sectional Chart and pilotage, and manually pumping the landing gear down at arrival. Once the smoke cleared, the only real concern was watching the traffic pattern - carefully - at the airport where I landed.

It is important to make decisions you can work with, based on the information at hand. Whether you have the tools with which to succeed depends upon both you and your instructor. I like Jesse's style, and look forward to flying with him again (at which time I am certain he will cause me some embarrassment, which I will have well earned, and I will learn from it).
 
How 'bout this scenario:

You take off, climb to your initial cruise altitude and head toward your destination (GPS Direct); about 15 miles north of the class Bravo airspace you just left from, you smell and see smoke in the cabin, as the result of an electrical wire shorting to ground where a missing grommet allowed the insulation to wear off.

You kill the Master and look for a place to put the plane down; fields, roads, plenty of places to put it where you probably won't die, but nothing where you won't hurt the plane (and quite possibly, the precious persons inside). Right away, it becomes apparent that the smoke has abated with no electricity to continue it.

Do you (1) continue to your destination, inside a Class B, around an hour and a half ahead; (2) Land immediately on the most convenient and appealing farmer's field; or (3) Land at the nearest appropriate airport?

Bear in mind - when the Master was switched off, you lost the Magenta Line of Love on the 430. You have neither an iPad nor a portable GPS, and NAV radio is not an option because, if you turn on the Master switch, smoke and flames will ensue.
--

I chose option 3, which required using my Sectional Chart and pilotage, and manually pumping the landing gear down at arrival. Once the smoke cleared, the only real concern was watching the traffic pattern - carefully - at the airport where I landed.

It is important to make decisions you can work with, based on the information at hand. Whether you have the tools with which to succeed depends upon both you and your instructor. I like Jesse's style, and look forward to flying with him again (at which time I am certain he will cause me some embarrassment, which I will have well earned, and I will learn from it).

I would pick option 3 as well. I would pick the closest airport that is non towered, as everyone else should assume no one has a radio.
 
How 'bout this scenario:

You take off, climb to your initial cruise altitude and head toward your destination (GPS Direct); about 15 miles north of the class Bravo airspace you just left from, you smell and see smoke in the cabin, as the result of an electrical wire shorting to ground where a missing grommet allowed the insulation to wear off.

You kill the Master and look for a place to put the plane down; fields, roads, plenty of places to put it where you probably won't die, but nothing where you won't hurt the plane (and quite possibly, the precious persons inside). Right away, it becomes apparent that the smoke has abated with no electricity to continue it.

Do you (1) continue to your destination, inside a Class B, around an hour and a half ahead; (2) Land immediately on the most convenient and appealing farmer's field; or (3) Land at the nearest appropriate airport?

Bear in mind - when the Master was switched off, you lost the Magenta Line of Love on the 430. You have neither an iPad nor a portable GPS, and NAV radio is not an option because, if you turn on the Master switch, smoke and flames will ensue.
--

I chose option 3, which required using my Sectional Chart and pilotage, and manually pumping the landing gear down at arrival. Once the smoke cleared, the only real concern was watching the traffic pattern - carefully - at the airport where I landed.

It is important to make decisions you can work with, based on the information at hand. Whether you have the tools with which to succeed depends upon both you and your instructor. I like Jesse's style, and look forward to flying with him again (at which time I am certain he will cause me some embarrassment, which I will have well earned, and I will learn from it).
There is much missing from this scenario which would affect my answer quite a bit. First how close is the nearest airport. As far as whether it is towered or not, or even in what class it is in I personally do not care. A fire is an emergency, and assuming because you turned off the electricity to the wire causing the fire, and no longer see smoke or smell smoke does not mean the fire has not stopped. Something such as a rag left by you distracted mechanic when he changed your oil last week, or a bird's nest next to the hot wire may be smoldering and ready to flame up and mess up you best made plans. Let's assume the fire is not going to start up again however. Am I allowed to use my trusty hand held I always have next to me and always fully charged. Did I take an extra second to tell ATC what my problem was(though that would have little if any bearing on my decision). How far is the nearest airport. How close is the nearest safe field. Where there is one farmers field there are probably others, as well as possibly some other fields that may be more inviting. How much smoke has stained my windshield making it difficult to see out of the plane. Depending on these answers I would pick either 2 or 3. All else being equal and if the plane is flying otherwise in good shape and there is not much of a difference between the field and the airport, and I have a fairly good idea where the airport is and will not be searching for it for some time I would probably choose 3, with a plan b to land in the nearest field if something happens to make me uncomfortable with looking for the airport. Like I said before, it would not matter to me whether the airport was controlled on uncontrolled, military or nonmilitary, or what class it was. Surely if I landed in a Class Bravo I may get into some trouble but at the end of the day my mantra will always better to face a 709 ride, then a NTSB report. Bottom line, it is my job is to get that plane safely for me and my passengers to the ground, if that means bending some metal well then it sucks to be my plane.

Doug
 
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Care to share some examples?

A worthwhile instructor, will teach a student to use GPS along with other resources. A good instructor will teach a student to DO much more, than just follow a magenta line. But a great instructor will show the students to true benefits of a good moving map system. Unfortunately, many instructors are not really up to date..........as to the use of glass. I know that for a fact.
 
Gentlemen I'm not a pilot but if I WAS a pilot I would want every resource available at my disposal in terms of navigation. That means being proficient with GPS, VOR, NDB's etc.........

Maybe everyone should read his again. ;)
 
Assumes facts not in evidence. And you continue to blithely ignore the purpose of the lesson and seek to defend the incorrect answer that you continue to provide.

it matters. My reasoning, good or bad, is we just had an event that has caused many pilots who have relied on GPS to start using other systems.

Good or bad, that's what would have happend, and I don't want to be around a lot of traffic when it does.

and I am sure Jesse's student will be the same way... digging out charts he has not used much after passing his PPL, figuring out what the VOR should be set to, making sure he has everything setup right. There will be a lot more heads down flying for the short term.
 
I don't always fly without 3 GPSs, an iPad, an iPhone, 2 nav/coms, flight following, a satellite phone, and a PLB. But when I do, I look out the window.

Stay thirsty, my friends.
 
I don't always fly without 3 GPSs, an iPad, an iPhone, 2 nav/coms, flight following, a satellite phone, and a PLB. But when I do, I look out the window.

Stay thirsty, my friends.
I count 5 gps, and do not forget your parachute, and a rubber ducky.

Doug
 
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