My situation

U

Unregistered

Guest
Hi,
I am 17 years old and have always been interested in becoming a commercial airline pilot. I have a physical disability. I understand I must first pass a medical examination, (first, second and third class, respectively) in order to start my training. The few people I have spoken to about my situation have said that I should beable to get my third class certificate without a problem, however a second or first class certificate maybe more challenging. I would appreciate your opinions.

I wear leg braces (knee high) because of my disability. My balance is not the best (while standing) however I am able to walk and stand without any assistance. I do walk with a limp, but it is not too bad. That's about it, I mean my disability has never limited me in what I have wanted to do in my life. I do have my drivers' license and am able to drive without any modifications to the car. (I drive normally) What do you guys think?

I do not think I will have a problem flying a plane. (physically) However, if I am denied a first class medical I will fight. I also do not want to start my training and spend thousands of dollars all to find out I can not fly commerically. I appreciate your insight and am looking foward to your responses.
Thanks
 
i would be surprised if this presents an issue. I know of airline pilots who are missing entire limbs and are still certifiable. Dr. Bruce will know of course, but it doesnt seem to me to be something to worry about.
 
tonycondon said:
i would be surprised if this presents an issue. I know of airline pilots who are missing entire limbs and are still certifiable. Dr. Bruce will know of course, but it doesnt seem to me to be something to worry about.
Click to expand...

Oh, I'd also like to add that I have an appointment scheduled with an AME for a third class medical certificate at the end of November so I can begin my student training. Hopefully the AME can tell me if I will evenually beable to get my first class certificate.

I am hoping for my responses,
Thanks again
 
excellent, Dr. Bruce (a top notch first class super duper AME) will be able to give you the definite answer also.
 
tonycondon said:
well...they ARE airline pilots
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Ya, what idiots.



Oh....wait....



Annon, I can't imagine it'd be a problem. Like you said, the AME is going to be the best source of information and educated opinion. Worst case, you might have to take a SODA ride (statement of demonstrated ability), but that alone shouldn't keep you out of the airlines. If you want it bad enough (and it sounds like you do) an airline job is a very attainable goal, especially in this day and age.
 
I'm not a doc, and don't pretend to be one - the www.FAA.gov has links to it's medical examiner info that shows what you'll be graded on. www.aopa.org has a thing called TurboMedical that will guide you through what will be asked, although I can't find the exact link right now. You'll have to search the site.

edit - just found it, http://www.aopa.org/members/pic/medical/turbomedical/

My guess, the balance issue you mentioned might be something that requires some additional documentation. A REAL doc will be able to get you some way better advice.

Something that's been suggested before in certain cases is to see an AME for a consult only. He/she can let you know whether you'll pass before you get the real exam. The point is, always go to the AME KNOWING you will pass, don't go get the exam just to see whether or not you will.

Good luck with everything!
 
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Matthew said:
I'm not a doc, and don't pretend to be one - the www.FAA.gov has links to it's medical examiner info that shows what you'll be graded on. www.aopa.org has a thing called TurboMedical that will guide you through what will be asked, although I can't find the exact link right now. You'll have to search the site.

edit - just found it, http://www.aopa.org/members/pic/medical/turbomedical/

My guess, the balance issue you mentioned might be something that requires some additional documentation. A REAL doc will be able to get you some way better advice.

Something that's been suggested before in certain cases is to see an AME for a consult only. He/she can let you know whether you'll pass before you get the real exam. The point is, always go to the AME KNOWING you will pass, don't go get the exam just to see whether or not you will.

Good luck with everything!
Click to expand...

Hi,
Thanks for the link, but it asks me for a login, do I have to register? I don't even see a register link.
Thanks
 
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Unregistered said:
Hi,
Thanks for the link, but it asks me for a login, do I have to register? I don't even see a register link.
Thanks
Click to expand...

D'oh! I thought that TurboMedical was one of the areas that did NOT require membership. Sorry about that!

AOPA does have student memberships (free) for 6 months. It's worth the price! Really, it has some good resources for somebody getting started, especially someone with medical question.

I think it's a good idea to get the medical first, before spending too much on lessons and supplies. I think you'll find that there are nearly always routes through the system for nearly any medical issues. You'll need to find an AME that's willing to help you through the maze. Maybe another reason for a consult first.

Hopefully you'll hear from a real AME on this forum.

Matt
 
Unregistered said:
I understand I must first pass a medical examination, (first, second and third class, respectively) in order to start my training.
Click to expand...

FWIW, you do not need to pass any medical exam to start training, but you will need a third class (or higher) to solo assuming you are training in something bigger than a Light Sport Aircraft. That said, if your primary interest in learning to fly is for a career as an airline pilot, you would be well advised to confirm your ability to pass a first class physical so you don't waste a lot of time and money on a fruitless pursuit.
 
lancefisher said:
FWIW, you do not need to pass any medical exam to start training, but you will need a third class (or higher) to solo assuming you are training in something bigger than a Light Sport Aircraft. That said, if your primary interest in learning to fly is for a career as an airline pilot, you would be well advised to confirm your ability to pass a first class physical so you don't waste a lot of time and money on a fruitless pursuit.
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Yes, but I can not be awarded a First class medical certificate until I am 23 years of age, at least that is how I understand it. (please, correct me if I am wrong) I am going to talk to the doctor about it when I go in for my Third class medical next month. I am also hoping that Dr. Bruce that everyone is talking about can help me too.
 
John MacGuire (dec.) [from natural causes] was a terrific pilot. He flew fighter jets, Bonanzas, all sorts of twins, helicopters, and the P-51 he owned. He had polio as a youngster and walked with difficulty. I saw him struggle to a helicopter in his last years of life, using two canes to help him get there. Arriving at the helo, he tossed the canes away and crawled in, started up and took off. It was like flying healed him, his disability was not an issue any longer when flying, as it was while he was on the ground. The only airplane that gave him issue was the P-51 on takeoff roll. The turning tendancies of the airplane were a little too much for him so he had his wife help him out on the rudders on takeoffs (it was a rare, 2-seat P51).
He was the type of guy who could put his mind to anything and overcome all adversity. I bet you can too.
 
no you can get a first class before 23, just have to be 23 to get ATP certificate
 
tonycondon said:
no you can get a first class before 23, just have to be 23 to get ATP certificate
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I don't think the physican I am seeing can distribute First class certificates, however would he beable to tell me if I will qaulify for one when the time comes?
Thanks
 
Oh, I am also on a prescribed medication that I take MAYBE once or twice a month for knee pain. (I get it very rarely, but it relates to how my balance is, etc.) Does this mean something bad for me?
 
Unregistered,

In which state do you reside? There are a number of manual dexterity tests done on the lower extremities for the Commerical Drivers' License, that most occupational medicine offices can perform.

But you will be issued a "valid for student purposes only" Third Class certificate if the AME has any doubt. This will in turn lead to a FSDO ride (After solo, before checkride) with YOU as PIC in which he will ask you to slip, maintain control in slow flight, do crosswind landings, and do a shortfield landing (use the brakes) . If he likes what he sees, you get a permanent WAIVER of DEMONSTRATED ability.

Now my First concern is that the lower extremity requirement for braces is truly STATIC. That is the situation for which waivers exist. Some of the spinal disorders are NOT quite static. The Underlying diagnosis needs to be compatible with the condition being totally STATIC.

Now the bad news. Every part 121 flag carrier in the USA has a box on their applications that say, "Do you possess a Waiver?" It has traditionally been used to screen candidates- e.g, forever at the bottom of the pile. When you have 10,000 applicants for 100 jobs, you look for a way to remove ~100-200 immediately. That's what this box on the application does.

You won't find much negative selection when you are at the level of a part 135 or freight hauler. But, even the fractionals are going to look at you and say, "what wil the clients think?"

Sigh. Dr. Bruce
 
bbchien said:
Unregistered,

In which state do you reside? There are a number of manual dexterity tests done on the lower extremities for the Commerical Drivers' License, that most occupational medicine offices can perform.

But you will be issued a "valid for student purposes only" Third Class certificate if the AME has any doubt. This will in turn lead to a FSDO ride (After solo, before checkride) with YOU as PIC in which he will ask you to slip, maintain control in slow flight, do crosswind landings, and do a shortfield landing (use the brakes) . If he likes what he sees, you get a permanent WAIVER of DEMONSTRATED ability.

Now my First concern is that the lower extremity requirement for braces is truly STATIC. That is the situation for which waivers exist. Some of the spinal disorders are NOT quite static. The Underlying diagnosis needs to be compatible with the condition being totally STATIC.

Now the bad news. Every part 121 flag carrier in the USA has a box on their applications that say, "Do you possess a Waiver?" It has traditionally been used to screen candidates- e.g, forever at the bottom of the pile. When you have 10,000 applicants for 100 jobs, you look for a way to remove ~100-200 immediately. That's what this box on the application does.

You won't find much negative selection when you are at the level of a part 135 or freight hauler. But, even the fractionals are going to look at you and say, "what wil the clients think?"

Sigh. Dr. Bruce
Click to expand...

I live in California. I have my drivers' license though, is that what you are asking? I am confused on STATIC. Do you think my condition will prevent me from getting a first class completely, or will there be things I can do (show) that I can be a commericial airline pilot? I want to do end up doing this as a career, not a hobby.
 
It sounds like your best bet along with dealing with medical waiver would be working on your practical performance skills and knowledge. Work to exceed at every level and learn every piece of knowledge you can get your hands on.

It will put a lot on your back but if you want it bad enough, it can be yours. Make the accomplishments so great that they will shadow any check box as described by Dr. Bruce.

I wish you the best in your goal. Also, keep in mind there is a wealth of knowledge in the folks on this board who will go out of their way to help you. Never be afraid to ask for help or answers. In fact, you've already started.
 
bbchien said:
Unregistered,

In which state do you reside? There are a number of manual dexterity tests done on the lower extremities for the Commerical Drivers' License, that most occupational medicine offices can perform.

But you will be issued a "valid for student purposes only" Third Class certificate if the AME has any doubt. This will in turn lead to a FSDO ride (After solo, before checkride) with YOU as PIC in which he will ask you to slip, maintain control in slow flight, do crosswind landings, and do a shortfield landing (use the brakes) . If he likes what he sees, you get a permanent WAIVER of DEMONSTRATED ability.

Now my First concern is that the lower extremity requirement for braces is truly STATIC. That is the situation for which waivers exist. Some of the spinal disorders are NOT quite static. The Underlying diagnosis needs to be compatible with the condition being totally STATIC.

Now the bad news. Every part 121 flag carrier in the USA has a box on their applications that say, "Do you possess a Waiver?" It has traditionally been used to screen candidates- e.g, forever at the bottom of the pile. When you have 10,000 applicants for 100 jobs, you look for a way to remove ~100-200 immediately. That's what this box on the application does.

You won't find much negative selection when you are at the level of a part 135 or freight hauler. But, even the fractionals are going to look at you and say, "what wil the clients think?"

Sigh. Dr. Bruce
Click to expand...

I do not have a spinal disorder it is a muscle disorder. (lower extremity only; knee down) Does that fall under "STATIC"?
Thanks
 
Unregistered said:
I am confused on STATIC.
Click to expand...

Bruce meant that to qualify for a permanent waiver (releases you from needing to meet one or more standards for a medical certificate) your condition has to be one that won't be expected to get worse over time.

[/quote] Do you think my condition will prevent me from getting a first class completely, or will there be things I can do (show) that I can be a commericial airline pilot? I want to do end up doing this as a career, not a hobby.[/quote]

Sounds like you might need a waiver to qualify for the medical certificate, but this may well be within your grasp. The bigger issue that Bruce was pointing out was that even if you do get a first class medical, the airlines may choose not to hire you if you needed a waiver to qualify for the medical cert. Personally, I'd think you'd have grounds for a discrimination lawsuit if an airline rejected you solely because of a medical condition that the FAA says doesn't interfere with your duties as a pilot, but that's a whole nuther kettle of worms.
 
Without a detailed description of why (Spina Bifida Occulta, Polio, tuberous sclerosis, etc) I can't tell you much about beyond the current situation or even the current situation. Some of the muscular dystropies are very slowly progressive- Ducheyene's, for example. Some are not.

The mechanism is, (1) If to the AME it is patently obvious that you can act w/o restriction as PIC, then he will simply issue. (2) If it is NOT so obvious, he will issue a limited certificate, with the endorsement in my previous post. You can get a first class assuming everything else checks outs.

However, You WILL be at a disadvantage in the job hiring pool even if you can perform the duties. The use of a prior DUI (which the airlines view as a potential future medical disablement expense- alcoholism), the presence of a waiver, the use of bad credit (track record of responsibility and ability to exercise command leadership authority), and the use of any and all certificate actions against an applicant is as old as this nation itself. The cut will not come necessarily at the freight dog/ Charter operator level in your career, but certainly exists at the level of "going to the show" (The part 121 carriers).

I say again as you didn't get it on the first pass, the issue won't be your ability to get a medical certificate, which may be easy or require some hoops. You WILL get it. The difficulty is just as how the nation regarded Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Corporate executives look carefully at their flight department's pilots. They spook easily. So do 121 passengers. Airlines know this.

Airlines have broad discretion to choose, as crew performance has been recognized to be medically dependent. They will never tell anyone that the presence of a waiver leads to the bottom of the stack. But it does. How can we infer this? The letter of demonstrated ability exists, just so that some pilots can say "no" to the waiver question when nearly color blind. There is no permanent federal record of the letter of demonstrated ability, which is commonly only available for the color blind condition.


And they ARE allowed to discriminate against future economic costs.
 
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lancefisher said:
Bruce meant that to qualify for a permanent waiver (releases you from needing to meet one or more standards for a medical certificate) your condition has to be one that won't be expected to get worse over time.
Click to expand...
Do you think my condition will prevent me from getting a first class completely, or will there be things I can do (show) that I can be a commericial airline pilot? I want to do end up doing this as a career, not a hobby.[/quote]

Sounds like you might need a waiver to qualify for the medical certificate, but this may well be within your grasp. The bigger issue that Bruce was pointing out was that even if you do get a first class medical, the airlines may choose not to hire you if you needed a waiver to qualify for the medical cert. Personally, I'd think you'd have grounds for a discrimination lawsuit if an airline rejected you solely because of a medical condition that the FAA says doesn't interfere with your duties as a pilot, but that's a whole nuther kettle of worms.[/QUOTE]

Oh ya.. my condition is going to stay the same, it will not get worse, so that is not anything to worry about. I was lucky enough to have many life changing surgies as a young boy, that give me the ability to be as my doctor says allows me to live a 99% normal life.

When I read that I also thought of lawsuit, go figure?
 
Unreg, that's good. Do you have documentation fo the variety of muscle disorder (biopsy?) to show that it will be static? That will be a part of getting your first medical.

If you really must do it, I say go for it, but have a plan "B" (as in a Bachelor's and maybe even a Masters' in a nonaviaiton area) and don't be hurt when for unexplicable reasons you just don't get hired while your pals do....Proving systemic discrimination is very hard to do, and this is an occupation that is health-sensitive anyway, so they might be permitted in the category of "unpreferred due to future costs".
 
bbchien said:
Without a detailed description of why (Spina Bifida Occulta, Polio, tuberous sclerosis, etc) I can't tell you much about beyond the current situation or even the current situation.

The mechanism is, (1) If to the AME it is patently obvious that you can act w/o restriction as PIC, then he will simply issue. (2) If it is NOT so obvious, he will issue a limited certificate, with the endorsement in my previous post. You can get a first class assuming everything else checks outs.

However, You WILL be at a disadvantage in the job hiring pool even if you can perform the duties. The use of a prior DUI (which the airlines view as a potential future medical disablement expense- alcoholism), the presence of a waiver, the use of bad credit (track record of responsibility and ability to exercise command leadership authority), and the use of any and all certificate actions against an applicant is as old as this nation itself. The cut will not come necessarily at the freight dog/ Charter operator level in your career, but certainly exists at the level of "going to the show" (The part 121 carriers).

I say again as you didn't get it on the first pass, the issue won't be your ability to get a medical certificate, which may be easy or require some hoops. You WILL get it. The difficulty is just as how the nation regarded Franklin Delano Roosevelt. Corporate executives look carefully at their flight department's pilots. They spook easily. So do 121 passengers. Airlines know this.
Click to expand...

I will be happy to give you a detailed discription,

CP (Ortropeadic; hips down, braces go knee down) Spastic diplegia.

I had many surgies as I mentioned as a young boy that make it possible for me to live a pretty normal life.
Anything else?
Thanks
 
bbchien said:
Unreg, that's good. Do you have documentation fo the variety of muscle disorder (biopsy?) to show that it will be static? That will be a part of getting your first medical.

If you really must do it, I say go for it, but have a plan "B" (as in a Bachelor's and maybe even a Masters' in a nonaviaiton area) and don't be hurt when for unexplicable reasons you just don't get hired while your pals do....Proving systemic discrimination is very hard to do, and this is an occupation that is health-sensitive anyway, so they might be permitted in the category of "unpreferred due to future costs".
Click to expand...

My "B" plan is law, so if I don't get hired I'll spend my days fighting in order to one day get hired. My dad was a physican (RIP), and I have spoken with a few of his former colleuges about my situation they believe I should have no trouble, unfortunately they are not AME.
 
Simultaneous posts!

Good. That's mostly static.

Do consider this, when you get to be 45 you will start to get paunchy. The load on the working muscles gets to be a problem.

Go for it but get a good plan B....one that is entirely BRAIN dependent and not motor/frame dependent.

Law would be a very GOOD area. Subtly over the years you will experience what it is like to be in a visible minority. It's SOBERING.
 
bruce if the airlines are discriminating on bad credit there are going to be a million dissapointed pilots from the big box schools in the next few years. credit card debt like mad.
 
tonycondon said:
bruce if the airlines are discriminating on bad credit there are going to be a million dissapointed pilots from the big box schools in the next few years. credit card debt like mad.
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Credit check occurs when you are a candidate for a chief pilot (managerial) position. Only a matter of time when it starts moving downhill.
 
Dr. Bruce,
So you believe my problem maybe getting hired, as apposed to getting the actual first class medical certificate right? Do you think I'll have a hard time getting the first class certificate, now knowing my full condition?
Thanks
 
unregistered said:
So you believe my problem maybe getting hired, as apposed to getting the actual first class medical certificate right?
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Yes. I believe this is what I said:
bruceC said:
Now the bad news. Every part 121 flag carrier in the USA has a box on their applications that say, "Do you possess a Waiver?" It has traditionally been used to screen candidates- e.g, forever at the bottom of the pile. When you have 10,000 applicants for 100 jobs, you look for a way to remove ~100-200 immediately. That's what this box on the application does.
Click to expand...
unregistered said:
Do you think I'll have a hard time getting the first class certificate, now knowing my full condition?
Thanks
Click to expand...
I don't know your full medical condition. I haven't seen the repetitive motion fatigue test, the 40 pound sustained pressure fade test, or even a movie of you moving about an office, let alone a car or a Cessna. However, you will get a medical certificate either straight up or with a FSDO waiver ride depending on how you are seen to move.

BruceC said:
The mechanism is, (1) If to the AME it is patently obvious that you can act w/o restriction as PIC, then he will simply issue. (2) If it is NOT so obvious, he will issue a limited certificate, with the endorsement in my previous post. You can get a first class assuming everything else checks out.
Click to expand...
You'll get it one way or the other.
 
Thanks for your time, and everyone else who gave me some informative answers. I am still open to all opinions.
 
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