My friend died in a fiery plane crash

[gismo]

A question here for my knowledge - you say if you're heavily iced, zero configuration changes (including gear), but that you haven't been in icing heavy enough to not dare lower wheels as you cross the numbers. So for you, how do you proceed? I generally push the gear lever down at the FAF (but I'm generally not iced). Are you suggesting waiting until over the numbers, then pushing the gear lever?

Thanks for sharing your advice/experience.

Like so many other aviation questions the answer has to be "it depends". If you are iced up so bad that you're coming down 500 fpm or more at full power with the gear in the wells you're likely better off leaving them up. But if you have enough power to hold altitude with the gear up I think you'd be well advised to lower the gear long before reaching the runway. The best option would be to fly an approach to a very long runway and stay above 500 AGL with the gear up until almost over the theshold. Then drop the gear and descend with excess airspeed and hopefully reduced power so you can add power near the runway to slow the descent. I saw the result of one pilot's mishandling of an iced up approach in a brand new Baron a few years ago. He didn't have all that much ice but also didn't bother to use the boots on final. As far as I can tell, he simply didn't add enough airspeed and stalled about 30 feet in the air a hundred feet short of the runway. The subsequent touchdown removed the landing gear and bent the fuselage and wings.

 

[gprellwitz]

Ws this pilot flying for hire? That might be another big factor in this. I imagine it is very difficult for a professional pilot to purposely crash an aircraft. It must look horrible on one's professional record, and one would have to be really really convinced there was no other way. Far easier for us who fly our own airplanes, as we are beholden to no one save ourselves and our passengers.

Yes, Brook's friend was flying an air ambulance with a flight nurse aboard, though this was a part 91 repositioning flight.

I'm sure she'd much rather be alive today looking for a job than where she is now, though I understand your point. It's just another version of get-there-itis or mission-focused aviation.

 

[Ted]

Ws this pilot flying for hire? That might be another big factor in this. I imagine it is very difficult for a professional pilot to purposely crash an aircraft. It must look horrible on one's professional record, and one would have to be really really convinced there was no other way. Far easier for us who fly our own airplanes, as we are beholden to no one save ourselves and our passengers.

While I see your point, one thing that was driven into my head very thoroughly by the DPEs on both my commercial check rides (single and multi, two separate examiners) was the first priority is the customer. You aren't doing the customer any favors by killing him or by killing yourself. I'm more conservative in my decisions when there are other people (or dogs) on board vs. when it's just me.

 

[steingar]

While I see your point, one thing that was driven into my head very thoroughly by the DPEs on both my commercial check rides (single and multi, two separate examiners) was the first priority is the customer. You aren't doing the customer any favors by killing him or by killing yourself. I'm more conservative in my decisions when there are other people (or dogs) on board vs. when it's just me.

Your points are will taken, but who ever thinks they're going to die? We pilots are a self-assured bunch, and I imagine those that make it up to the professional level even more so.

Ted, your situation isn't altogether fair, since you don't have that sort of pressure. As big as aviation looms in your existence, someone could say with some veracity that it is still a hobby. If you were grounded tomorrow it would not impact your living, except to give you that much more ready cash and a good reason to take up drinking.

I am reminded of the post about the British fellow who faced criminal charges for a poorly executed approach that turned into a successful landing. He could have landed at another airport with better weather, but professional concerns got the better of him.

 

[Ted]

I've had a number of times when I thought I was going to die, several in aircraft. As a fellow motorcyclist, I suspect you have, too.

And to be fair, no, flying isn't my livelihood, but I also try to avoid letting external pressures influence me to make bad decisions, even if it might affect my livelihood. I can always get another job. Lives are a bit more difficult to come by.

 

[gprellwitz]

I've had a number of times when I thought I was going to die, several in aircraft. As a fellow motorcyclist, I suspect you have, too.

And to be fair, no, flying isn't my livelihood, but I also try to avoid letting external pressures influence me to make bad decisions, even if it might affect my livelihood. I can always get another job. Lives are a bit more difficult to come by.

I'm a *****, so I only get 9 lives!

 

[steingar]

I've had a number of times when I thought I was going to die, several in aircraft. As a fellow motorcyclist, I suspect you have, too.

Actually, I've never thought I was going to die in the aircraft ever. I only once thought I might perish on the motorcycle, but that was on a very narrow mountain road in Baja California and was caused by a homicidal truck driver.

 

[dmccormack]

Actually, I've never thought I was going to die in the aircraft ever. I only once thought I might perish on the motorcycle, but that was on a very narrow mountain road in Baja California and was caused by a homicidal truck driver.

Motorcycle "I'm gonna die" moments are usually fleeting.

Airplanes and boats give you time to think about it.

 

[steingar]

Motorcycle "I'm gonna die" moments are usually fleeting.

Airplanes and boats give you time to think about it.

I'll take your word for it. My one brush with outrageous peril went pretty quickly on the bike, and I haven't really had any in the airplane. Not to say I've never had an emergency, I just never thought I was going to die.

 

[dmccormack]

I'll take your word for it. My one brush with outrageous peril went pretty quickly one the bike, and I haven't really had any in the airplane. Not to say I've never had an emergency, I just never thought I was going to die.

In retrospect I realized I might have died in several close calls (motocycle, canoe, road bike) -- I can't say I was aware of the hazard until after the event.

 

[steingar]

You got into life-threatening peril in a canoe? Did you almost go over a waterfall or what?

 

[dmccormack]

You got into life-threatening peril in a canoe? Did you almost go over a waterfall or what?

Twice -- once in 36 degree rapids when the rental life vest barely kept me afloat in Class IV rapids (only my eyes, nose, and mouth were exposed to air) -- I couldn't see which direction to swim without going under.

Another when a thunderstorm popped over the mountain while we were in the middle of a lake in the Adirondacks.

Both were in earlier days -- with age comes some caution.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

I wonder if there wasn't some "get-there-itis" going on that led to the not so good plan of melting the ice off on the approach. The airport temp was 0 C, so like Lance said, it wasn't realistic to expect to melt much ice off in those circumstances.

Get-there-itis, and the pressure of "somebody is depending on me to be there", especially in an air ambulance situation, came up as part of this discussion at the ASF seminar.

Several people spoke up to say that in their EMS helicopter or aircraft operations, they make a point that the pilot/crew does not know the reason or information about the patient---the nurse may know, but is not to share it with the flight crew--for exactly this reason. The pilot knows they are to "go to xyz and fly somebody to abc". NOT having the knowledge that it's a 3-year-old that will die if they don't get to abc in time for the transplant operation helps remove some of the pressure.

Of course, as the presenter said, when he flew those types of ops, it was in small town operations where this information was given to the flight crew--he agreed that an ops plan than withholds this information from the flight crew is better, as it helps the pilot focus on aviation decision making without outside influences and pressures.

This hit home for me, in doing Angel Flight missions. We DO know the information about the passenger and why they are going where they are going. Maybe it would be better NOT to know. But, seeing as we do, it's critical to make a point to acknowledge the knowledge, and try as best as possible to separate it from your ADM process.

 

[gismo]

I'll take your word for it. My one brush with outrageous peril went pretty quickly on the bike, and I haven't really had any in the airplane. Not to say I've never had an emergency, I just never thought I was going to die.

Other than in my nightmares, the only time in my life where I expected to die was when I went over a short dam in a 25 mph storm induced current. I was underwater long enough to have considered how the story would read in the papers but eventually floated to the surface once I stopped trying to swim without being able to tell which way was up.

 

[Everskyward]

Several people spoke up to say that in their EMS helicopter or aircraft operations, they make a point that the pilot/crew does not know the reason or information about the patient---the nurse may know, but is not to share it with the flight crew--for exactly this reason. The pilot knows they are to "go to xyz and fly somebody to abc". NOT having the knowledge that it's a 3-year-old that will die if they don't get to abc in time for the transplant operation helps remove some of the pressure.

Of course, as the presenter said, when he flew those types of ops, it was in small town operations where this information was given to the flight crew--he agreed that an ops plan than withholds this information from the flight crew is better, as it helps the pilot focus on aviation decision making without outside influences and pressures.

I always liked knowing about the patients' condition and the med crew would always share. I often went along to the hospital when we were picking them up just so that I could see what was involved. I guess I have that curiosity in me and, at the time, I could see myself getting involved in EMS from a medical side.

 

[ScottM]

I had a person ask me recently what was the scariest thing that has happened to me as a pilot. I thought long and hard before I gave him an answer. I told him that it is when I walk into an AME's office, I may not get my medical and then not be able to fly any longer.

 

[jesse]

I've had a number of times when I thought I was going to die, several in aircraft. As a fellow motorcyclist, I suspect you have, too.

And to be fair, no, flying isn't my livelihood, but I also try to avoid letting external pressures influence me to make bad decisions, even if it might affect my livelihood. I can always get another job. Lives are a bit more difficult to come by.

I've never thought I was going to die in an airplane. I have thought that something might get bent. I guess I've thought a major crash might be possible while watching houses rush towards the airplane on take-off as a passenger. Death wasn't part of my thought though..

My close calls on motorcycles have happened so fast that it usually doesn't really hit me for a day or two.

 

[N801BH]

A question here for my knowledge - you say if you're heavily iced, zero configuration changes (including gear), but that you haven't been in icing heavy enough to not dare lower wheels as you cross the numbers. So for you, how do you proceed? I generally push the gear lever down at the FAF (but I'm generally not iced). Are you suggesting waiting until over the numbers, then pushing the gear lever?

Thanks for sharing your advice/experience.

If she was carrying that much ice and thick layers were on the bottom of the wing from a nose high attitude the probability of that layer glueing the gear doors and the gear itself shut is high. That delay in gear extension from trying to displace that ice could have rattled her cage a little,,, well along with the million other things going wrong too..

 

[jnmeade]

Although she had de-icing equipment, it seems the consensus that she was heavily iced. I wonder how that affected her ability to see through the windshield? I would assume she had limited to no side visibility. Some of her maneauvers and actions may have been limited by having what is in essence a tank drivers or submariners very limited view of the world. Sometimes we focus on and react to what we see and not the big picture.

I grant she could see enough to make a dramatic sidestep when she broke out, but wonder if she had more than a fairly small hot plate hole to look through?

Someone help me out - reading through several different messages and the NTSB report, does it sound like the engines and props strike with differing power and/or pitch settings? I thought there were some different gouge intervals.

 

[gismo]

Someone help me out - reading through several different messages and the NTSB report, does it sound like the engines and props strike with differing power and/or pitch settings? I thought there were some different gouge intervals.

I think the change in the groove spacing indicates that she increased speed (for the go-around) between the first set and the second.

 

[TangoWhiskey]

Timely. October 2009 issue of IFR in the mail today. Cover story: "Landing with Ice - what to do when the ice won't go away"

 

[Dr. O]

I am late getting back to this thread.. To answer the question, if I am heavily iced to the point that I believe the wings may stall I would not lower the gear until I am at jumping out altitude (as I said, about 3 feet)... IF you have the power to hold it at 3 feet the gear will get down in time.. If not, the outcome is the same as leaving the gear up.. Lowering the gear at 50 or 100 feet and stalling-in will kill you just as dead as her trying a go around did... Dropping stall/spin training from the requirements has killed a lot of pilots...

As far as the scare in an airplane, if this thread had been 2 months ago I would have said NEVER... But I recently I had the starboard engine go limp when I was too far down the runway to land, and not quite high enough to clear a tree line ahead... However, old reflexes (and that nasal voice in the back of my head from a half century ago) got me just enough climb to get between the tallest trees and I had the spot picked out I was going to belly it on in the field ahead, when the engine decided to put out some power, and I went around and landed..
Funny thing is, while I was busy cleaning up the plane, hitting blue line, switching tanks, etc. I had no sense of fear, or anything... Once the engine came back and I was tooling around to land, then I got the shakes from all the adrenalin...

Then as I walked back into the pilot lounge I got, "What in the hell were you trying to do... I have never seen a plane go between those trees before... You scared the sheet out of me."

"Scared you!!", was the best retort I could manage...

denny-o