Musings on glider transponders

Lance F

Lance F

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Lance F
Today I flew from Atlanta up to Selinsgrove PA KSEG. This is just north of glider heaven with world class ridge soaring. As I got into the area, I noted what a great soaring day it probably was. I was cruising at 11,000' just at the top of the abundant Cu's. Cloud base was between 8 and 9,000 I estimated.

Then reality set in. It was a great soaring day and many gliders were up. Harrisburg Approach called whatever traffic he could, but most were only primary targets. I was really tense and using every scan technique I knew of to see and avoid. In the end I only actually saw one glider about 500' below me and just to my side. How many close ones didn't I see?

I've been on the other side of this, and I know a glider pilot looking for lift is not looking for a Mooney coming by at 150kts (or a Learjet at 250kts for that matter).

When I was flying serious glider cross country, I really didn't think about this. It's a big sky, right? I'm sure if the SSA (Soaring Society if America) had asked me to write my congress critter opposing mandatory transponders for gliders I would have done so.

However, now having walked(flown?) in both sets of shoes, my thinking is a little different. Mandatory or not, flying a glider without a transponder strikes me as a bad idea.

My glider friends will think I've gone to the dark side. Oh well. Just my opinion after today's flight.
 
Possibly the closest I have come to hitting anything was a glider, and I was in a Lear 35. I only saw it because it was turning and I saw the glint of sun on the wings. I think it might be close to the area you are talking about. Anyway it was on the Wilkes-Barre arrival into Teterboro. I reported it and so did another airplane. Then ATC started warning airplanes behind us.
 
Gliders are generally the closest that I've come to ever hitting another aircraft. Of course, they were still hundreds of feet away vertically, and probably 1+ mile away horizontally. It's one of those things that I agree shouldn't necessarily be mandated, but that sure seems a good idea.
 
Flew past some last year around DNN squawking 1202. It would be nice if they all had transponders but many don't. Be on the lookout for the areas they frequent.
 
Being a glider pilot is like being the family curmudgeon that refuses to get a cell phone. Just cause everyone else is doing it...
 
All of the gliders I fly are transponder equipped, in addition to that we have an understanding with the local class C (Pensacola) that we will call them before we start operating and let them know how long we expect to be going.
 
There's a big glider symbol (actually two in close proximity) whet I usually soar, and ATC knows there are glider ops nearly every day during the season. Some have transponders, some don't. But that doesn't stop ATC from vectoring 737s through the area just outside the bravo. Of course if they kept them inside, they'd know there'd never be a conflict. So who's to blame in a situation like that when the big iron has to maneuver to avoid a sailplane?
 
I haven't ever come close to hitting a glider, but I've come real close to the freaking tow plane once. They're even lower in my esteem than jump plane pilots for reckless disregard of aviation safety.
 
I've got transponders in two of my personal ships.

They're having a regional at Mifflin this week.
 
I don't have one in my Flybaby, would like to, but it's just too much damn money to get one that's small enough and consumes a small enough quantity of energy. Some day.
 
I'm with you Lance. Paranoid flying my Mooney. Flew my glider three hours the other afternoon within 30 miles of class C between 3 and 10000 feet. Before I was an airplane pilot I never thought about it. Probably couldn't fit one in the little Woodstock if I could afford it and provide electricity to it but I really wish I had a transponder now.
 
Five years ago I took a glider ride with a commercial operation at BDU. I was thinking a glider add-on would be a good thing. Anyway, they didn't even use handhelds in their gliders much less a transponder. I never went back.

A year or two after my ride they had a mid-air, tow plane and Cirrus. The Cirrus burned all the way to the ground during the slow drop under canopy. Somebody got it on video so we all got to watch it after the fact. The glider survived.

If glider folks won't even use handhelds, how the heck can folks think about getting them to use transponders?
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Gliders are generally the closest that I've come to ever hitting another aircraft. Of course, they were still hundreds of feet away vertically, and probably 1+ mile away horizontally. It's one of those things that I agree shouldn't necessarily be mandated, but that sure seems a good idea.
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Coming/departing to/from the NNE I am always on alert in the vicinity of Chilhowee glider port, it is a semi-famous glider facility/school in the southeast[1]. Also, two of the best hang glide sites in the southeast are in the vicinity, the most popular facility/school[2] being just outside the Charlie. On a good soaring day those folks can definitely get up to altitudes where you need to keep sharp lookout. If there is a group of them up, sometimes CHA can paint a primary return on them and give advisories, but most of the time not.

[1] Yeah, I keep promising myself to get up there and get a glider add-on.

[2] I plan on trying a tandem intro ride at Lookout Mountain Flight Park
 
I'm wonder if there are any statistics out there on the likelihood of running into a glider without a transponder compared, say to running into my Champ. Where we soar, there is very little conflict with big iron and not much with anything else.

I think there are a lot of individual situations and it's probably a good idea for some gliders to have transponder but in others it's a very low risk-reward situation. I'm more worried about UAS than I am about gliders.
 
Go get your tandem in before it gets hot and muggy. The only thing to fear is wanting more.:yes:
Bill Jennings said:
Coming/departing to/from the NNE I am always on alert in the vicinity of Chilhowee glider port, it is a semi-famous glider facility/school in the southeast[1]. Also, two of the best hang glide sites in the southeast are in the vicinity, the most popular facility/school[2] being just outside the Charlie. On a good soaring day those folks can definitely get up to altitudes where you need to keep sharp lookout. If there is a group of them up, sometimes CHA can paint a primary return on them and give advisories, but most of the time not.

[1] Yeah, I keep promising myself to get up there and get a glider add-on.

[2] I plan on trying a tandem intro ride at Lookout Mountain Flight Park
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ClimbnSink said:
Go get your tandem in before it gets hot and muggy. The only thing to fear is wanting more.:yes:
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One more month for the sternum to fully heal and I will be unconditionally released. Still on a lifting restriction. :(
 
Bill Jennings said:
One more month for the sternum to fully heal and I will be unconditionally released. Still on a lifting restriction. :(
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Alright I'll give you a pass. For now. Heal fast. Fun is right around the corner.
 
If someone doesn't get on the stick with the ADSB crap there are going to be a lot of us flying around without transponders after 2020.
 
steingar said:
If someone doesn't get on the stick with the ADSB crap there are going to be a lot of us flying around without transponders after 2020.
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Cracks me up. The ADSB bit is going to result in more 'dark' traffic not less.:lol:
 
Lindberg said:
There's a big glider symbol (actually two in close proximity) whet I usually soar, and ATC knows there are glider ops nearly every day during the season. Some have transponders, some don't. But that doesn't stop ATC from vectoring 737s through the area just outside the bravo. Of course if they kept them inside, they'd know there'd never be a conflict. So who's to blame in a situation like that when the big iron has to maneuver to avoid a sailplane?
Click to expand...

I can flip that around and say that there are published arrival routes to major airports near where people like to fly gliders. If the gliders would stay away from those areas, there would never be a conflict.

It's airspace that's available for everyone. I suspect that if there was ever a mid-air collision, the FAA would probably make the Class B larger to encompass the published procedures, which is probably not what GA in general would like to see. Everyone is going to have to play nice.
 
Jmcmanna said:
I can flip that around and say that there are published arrival routes to major airports near where people like to fly gliders. If the gliders would stay away from those areas, there would never be a conflict.

It's airspace that's available for everyone. I suspect that if there was ever a mid-air collision, the FAA would probably make the Class B larger to encompass the published procedures, which is probably not what GA in general would like to see. Everyone is going to have to play nice.
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There already was a bizjet glider collision out west. Just remember if you can force the gliders to play by your rules the airlines can force you to play by theirs. And look out the window once in awhile, the life you save might be your own.
 
Jmcmanna said:
I can flip that around and say that there are published arrival routes to major airports near where people like to fly gliders. If the gliders would stay away from those areas, there would never be a conflict.

It's airspace that's available for everyone. I suspect that if there was ever a mid-air collision, the FAA would probably make the Class B larger to encompass the published procedures, which is probably not what GA in general would like to see. Everyone is going to have to play nice.
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Do the published arrival routes pass under the bravo and directly over glider symbol on the sectional? Playing nice, in the context of this thread, seems to be glider pilots behaving the way other pilots want them to.

I have no problem with transponders in gliders, but the expectation that gliders will have them decreases rather increases safety.
 
Jmcmanna said:
I can flip that around and say that there are published arrival routes to major airports near where people like to fly gliders. If the gliders would stay away from those areas, there would never be a conflict.
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After my near-encounter with the glider I was wondering if the pilot had any idea that he or she was right on the arrival and that there probably would be a business jet passing by at that altitude every couple minutes. I wonder if the glider schools nearby have a map showing places that it would be good to avoid.
 
I have no idea what the situation is today. But I started flying in gliders. During my instruction, private and commercial, I don't recall one lesson or even a comment about what airplanes do. We had radios, but they were always tuned to a glider use frequency. I don't think I would have known what the acronym ATC meant. And I was flying just outside of the Chicago Bravo (TCA at the time).
I realize most glider pilots start in airplanes and would know more, but many don't.
A glider circling may or may not catch the eye of an airplane pilot barreling down on him. Yesterday I was eyes 100% outside the cockpit in my descent through this active area, and I have the experience to spot gliders. Another pilot playing with his FMS or iPad might not be so observant. And don't forget, the glider pilot probably is wearing a parachute; you're not.
I would guess that most commercial jets do not have sectionals on board. They have no idea where those little glider symbols are. They are probably going 250 kts where most gliders play. ATC will provide the separation and make the jet move, but only if the glider is squawking.
I really don't think I'd fly a glider now without a transponder. Just my opinion.
 
Lance F said:
I have no idea what the situation is today. But I started flying in gliders. During my instruction, private and commercial, I don't recall one lesson or even a comment about what airplanes do. We had radios, but they were always tuned to a glider use frequency. I don't think I would have known what the acronym ATC meant. And I was flying just outside of the Chicago Bravo (TCA at the time).
I realize most glider pilots start in airplanes and would know more, but many don't.
A glider circling may or may not catch the eye of an airplane pilot barreling down on him. Yesterday I was eyes 100% outside the cockpit in my descent through this active area, and I have the experience to spot gliders. Another pilot playing with his FMS or iPad might not be so observant. And don't forget, the glider pilot probably is wearing a parachute; you're not.
I would guess that most commercial jets do not have sectionals on board. They have no idea where those little glider symbols are. They are probably going 250 kts where most gliders play. ATC will provide the separation and make the jet move, but only if the glider is squawking.
I really don't think I'd fly a glider now without a transponder. Just my opinion.
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Understand your concern. I certainly think about it when I'm sitting in an arrival corridor in my transponder less Flybaby. That said, collisions have been pretty damn rare. Is there anything that you think makes things more dangerous today than oh say ten years ago?
 
What makes it more dangerous now is all the distractions inside the cockpit. Glass panels, iPads, and touch screens are bringing the eyes inside more and more.
Many aircraft have ADSB or TCAS. I do.

With small transponders becoming cheap, I think it is crazy gliders would fly at anything above 3500' without one.

I have been very close to hitting a glider. I had my eyes outside and was tracking two gliders and a tow plane when I buzzed by a 3rd glider. I was doing 160 knots at the time. Less than a wingspan apart and at the same altitude.:yikes:

Many times I am not talking to ATC, so they can't warn me. But my PCAS and ADSB would.

Get a transponder.
 
Velocity173 said:
Flew past some last year around DNN squawking 1202. It would be nice if they all had transponders but many don't. Be on the lookout for the areas they frequent.
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I've never noticed any Gliders in the vicinity of DNN, But I'm certian they're around.
 
bluerooster said:
I've never noticed any Gliders in the vicinity of DNN, But I'm certian they're around.
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Which is why I was so surprised. There can't be much ridge lift around there and they were a good ways away from the glider port at 92A. CHA approach called them out to me squawking 1202 and then I saw a flight of two cruising along right over the town.
 
Jmcmanna said:
I can flip that around and say that there are published arrival routes to major airports near where people like to fly gliders. If the gliders would stay away from those areas, there would never be a conflict.

It's airspace that's available for everyone. I suspect that if there was ever a mid-air collision, the FAA would probably make the Class B larger to encompass the published procedures, which is probably not what GA in general would like to see. Everyone is going to have to play nice.
Click to expand...

ATC watches 3 gliders thermaling all squawking 1202 with altitude, nearby they see a 4th primary return. The 4 returns head out on course in a line, 3 squawking and the 4th primary. Known altitudes on the xpndr returns are 12-13K MSL.

ATC proceeds to vector 3 commercial airliners descending from 17K to 8K through the 1202 codes, one airliner TCAS commands a right turn away from the known targets, directly towards the 4 primary target and then files a near miss when he sees the wing flash on the non transponder glider.

Why would ATC, seeing the 3 1202 codes vector airliners through known traffic? And not warn them of a possible 4th target?

ATC brought us the video playback of the radar tracks, 1) they wanted to highlight the hazard, 2) they were looking for pilots to violate but quickly realized no FAR was broken, there was no violation.
 
mike d said:
What makes it more dangerous now is all the distractions inside the cockpit. Glass panels, iPads, and touch screens are bringing the eyes inside more and more.
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Do the statistics actually support that? I'm not so sure.

People staring inside their cockpits is nothing new. My grandpa used to get extremely ****ed off at my Dad if he flew any of the cropdusting planes above 500 ft AGL as he said some doctor reading the newspaper on autopilot in a Bonanza was going to run his ass over.

Doctors have been "eyes in" reading newspapers on autopilot in Bonanzas for a very long time now.
 
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Velocity173 said:
Which is why I was so surprised. There can't be much ridge lift around there and they were a good ways away from the glider port at 92A. CHA approach called them out to me squawking 1202 and then I saw a flight of two cruising along right over the town.
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Maybe ridge soaring near Fort Mt? :dunno:
 
What do some of the glider-suitable transponders cost? What power do they draw?
 
Ted DuPuis said:
Yep. Other people set the autopilot, take a nap. Wake up when the ATIS starts blaring.
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Damn. I'm waaay to paranoid. I keep my scan up and make sure George is doing a good job, eyes outside the cabin, and guessing and tuning radials on NAV2 to verify what the GPS is doing.

I leave the reading to my wife :rolleyes2:
 
BillTIZ said:
ATC watches 3 gliders thermaling all squawking 1202 with altitude, nearby they see a 4th primary return. The 4 returns head out on course in a line, 3 squawking and the 4th primary. Known altitudes on the xpndr returns are 12-13K MSL.

ATC proceeds to vector 3 commercial airliners descending from 17K to 8K through the 1202 codes, one airliner TCAS commands a right turn away from the known targets, directly towards the 4 primary target and then files a near miss when he sees the wing flash on the non transponder glider.

Why would ATC, seeing the 3 1202 codes vector airliners through known traffic? And not warn them of a possible 4th target?

ATC brought us the video playback of the radar tracks, 1) they wanted to highlight the hazard, 2) they were looking for pilots to violate but quickly realized no FAR was broken, there was no violation.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately, controllers sometimes exercise poor judgment too. I keep airplanes under my control away from observed traffic as much as practical...but I can't speak for anyone else.
 
Bill Jennings said:
Damn. I'm waaay to paranoid. I keep my scan up and make sure George is doing a good job, eyes outside the cabin, and guessing and tuning radials on NAV2 to verify what the GPS is doing.

I leave the reading to my wife :rolleyes2:
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When George is a 35 year-old artificial life built of resistors, capacitors, and transistors, and who doesn't get out much it's prolly a real good idea to keep an eye on him...

My George used to make random hard right turns until he went to Tulsa for some dis-assembly therapy.
 
jesse said:
Do the statistics actually support that? I'm not so sure.

People staring inside their cockpits is nothing new.
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Yup. I think what IS new is that technology has advanced enough to make traffic displays much more common, and pilots expect traffic to be displayed if possible. Before about 5-7 years ago I had never seen a traffic system in any small GA airplane, and before about 10-15 years ago I had never flown any airplane with a traffic alerting system. I don't think the risk of collisions is increasing, but I think the expectation to be warned of traffic is much greater than it was in the past.
 
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