Mushbrain

[Bill]

So, it turns out that it had been about 6 weeks or so since I went out with my instructor, I'd been flying with a safety pilot trying to build up simulated hours. Not that it helped much, we had to cancel 5 times in a row due to +TS. Oh well.

Last night, we took off using soft field, and I was in ground effect, and just pulled back to Vx climb when my instructor shouted "abort the takeoff, abort the takeoff." So, I pulled power and put us back on the runway. I ask what is wrong, as all the gauges, etc., looked fine. He said my door had popped open, and sure enough, it had. I hadn't noticed on takeoff, and told him we should have just continued climbout and closed it once at safe altitude. True, he said with a big smile, but I'll bet you haven't practiced an aborted takeoff in a while, have you? We laugh and take off again.

Out at the practice area, I go partial panel for the first time. Vacuum failure, both AI and DG covered. I flounder around, and we fly all sorts of headings, turns, climbs, descents, accelerations, and decelerations, noting how the whiskey compass reacts. Definetly more practice needed here before doing PP approaches.

After this, we then move on and I do my first NDB approach at HDI, one involving a mandatory hold before heading inbound. This was pretty clumsy, and I had a hard time figuring out what to do when. Like most, I was trying to fly the ADF like a VOR, and that just doesn't work. I have to remember to stay on course so I know what the ADF is telling me. After that approach to missed, we went back to CHA and did the NDB 20 full approach, doing the outbound, then procedure turn, than back inbound to the full stop. This one went better, but I didn't pass over the OM, so wasn't able to take the last altitude letdown. He called "field in sight" really close in, so I had to bank over and line up, then he called short field landing, make the first turnoff.

And we did, by then my brain was mush. I need to really read up some more on those NDB approaches...

 

[jdwatson]

PP and timed turns aren't a lot of fun, but in this heat they've got to be a huge challenge.

 

[poadeleted20]

Last night, we took off using soft field, and I was in ground effect, and just pulled back to Vx climb when my instructor shouted "abort the takeoff, abort the takeoff." So, I pulled power and put us back on the runway. I ask what is wrong, as all the gauges, etc., looked fine. He said my door had popped open, and sure enough, it had. I hadn't noticed on takeoff, and told him we should have just continued climbout and closed it once at safe altitude.

You were absolutely right.

True, he said with a big smile, but I'll bet you haven't practiced an aborted takeoff in a while, have you? We laugh and take off again.

I sure would not have laughed about this. Was the title of this thread referring to your instructor? There are good reasons why the PTS prohibits the examiner from testing an aborted takeoff after getting airborne.

I've had plenty of doors pop open in flight on both Cessna and Piper products, and as you suggested, it ain't no big deal as long as nobody panics. OTOH, aborting a takeoff after getting airborne is about as dangerous a maneuver as there is. There have been countless fatal accidents resulting from inappropriate reaction to an unlatched door in flight, while I've never heard of an accident resulting from the airplane becoming uncontrollable due solely to an open door in a 172 or Cherokee or anything like that. Unless you're flying some strange airplane where an unlatched door is a boldface emergency (and your post suggests not), your instructor overreacted big time, and needs to rethink his priorities in a situation like that. What he pushed you into was bloody dangerous and most certainly no laughing matter.

 

[Bill]

There are good reasons why the PTS prohibits the examiner from testing an aborted takeoff after getting airborne.

Do you teach aborted takeoffs after getting airborne? Should a student learn this while under the instruction of a CFI?

Granted, this was a poor way of springing an aborted takeoff practice on someone, I'll give you that. But, my real question is, should one practice these at all, or just take your chances someday when your engine conks at 100agl?

And yes, if the door pops on me again, I'll fly to a safe altitude, trim and stabilize the plane, then secure the door.

Anyway, any good hints on learning NDB approaches?

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

If the runway left is sufficiently long, what in the world is wrong with aborting a takeoff ?

 

[grattonja]

Having watched a takeoff that should have been aborted end in a wreck that destroyed two airplanes and two cars (including my wife's), I decided to practice an aborted TO or two months ago. They went w/o a hitch. Granted, it was not sprung on me by a CFI, but... I think it is not a bad idea to practice an abort or two. And yes, I did basically get airborne. Still in ground effect and not far off the ground, and +50 percentof runway still available. But I am not a CFI. So... I do agree that a popped open door on a cessna in flight is a minor distraction and not a big deal.

If you can fly NDB approaches, you can fly anything out there. Reading about them is one thing, but... I think it is more important to fly them. The actual equipment, and the approaches themselves, as you know, are simple. It is the application that can get you.

Jim G

 

[fgcason]

If the runway left is sufficiently long, what in the world is wrong with aborting a takeoff ?

You could. Of course people that think a released door is a serious emergency are likely to unlift the plane into the pavement trying to get out of the sky with a plane that's suddenly about to fall apart while the end of the runway is rushing up to meet them.

Don't forget that the emergency landing procedure for these planes specifically tell you to open the door before landing and you're often advised to shove something in there to wedge it further open while you're at it.

The real question is why would you need to land immediately for a door that's about 1/2" - 3/4" more open than it is when it's shut securely with the wind holding it against the side of the plane? You could fly completely across the North Atlantic like that in total safety with nothing more than some added noise and cooler cabin temps. Even if the door did fall completely off, well, jump planes do that all day long assuming your tailfeathers aren't mangled beyond use if the door hits it. Besides, you don't even have to land to secure the door in flight. Just shove it open and let it go thump and it's closed and cruise on.

A released door is a complete non event in planes with this type of door. Cherokee doors that wrap over the top of the cabin is no different.

Don't go creating an emergency for a non event comfort item.


Where did the idea come from that a cessna door released in flight is a life and death emergency anyway?

 

[sere]

I agree with the others that putting you in that situation could of been dangerous. However one thing you said is that you would climb to altitude and then close the door. My instructors to include several of them have all told me to just bring the aircraft back in and land then fix the door. I know in several differant type of aircraft that I have flown there is no way you are going to get the door closed and locked in flight. Don't know if that is true will most aircraft but I don't care. My plan of action is to land as soon as it is safe and then fix the door. No chance of a mishap there.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

You could. Of course people that think a released door is a serious emergency are likely to unlift the plane into the pavement trying to get out of the sky with a plane that's suddenly about to fall apart while the end of the runway is rushing up to meet them.

Don't forget that the emergency landing procedure for these planes specifically tell you to open the door before landing and you're often advised to shove something in there to wedge it further open while you're at it.

The real question is why would you need to land immediately for a door that's about 1/2" - 3/4" more open than it is when it's shut securely with the wind holding it against the side of the plane? You could fly completely across the North Atlantic like that in total safety with nothing more than some added noise and cooler cabin temps. Even if the door did fall completely off, well, jump planes do that all day long assuming your tailfeathers aren't mangled beyond use if the door hits it. Besides, you don't even have to land to secure the door in flight. Just shove it open and let it go thump and it's closed and cruise on.

A released door is a complete non event in planes with this type of door. Cherokee doors that wrap over the top of the cabin is no different.

Don't go creating an emergency for a non event comfort item.


Where did the idea come from that a cessna door released in flight is a life and death emergency anyway?

It appears the CFI simply took the occasion of the non-emergency event of the popped door to practice, with sufficient runway, an aborted takeoff maneuver that should be practiced anyway by all GA pilots. The added distractions adding to the value of the easy exercise for the flight student.
No problems.

 

[gkainz]

I didn't think I ever wanted to hear "This is a drill! This is a drill!" again in my life, but I can see that this would have been a good time for the instructor to preface his "Abort Takeoff" with this... sure would reduce the panic and adrenaline, yet still allow for a teaching moment...

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

I didn't think I ever wanted to hear "This is a drill! This is a drill!" again in my life, but I can see that this would have been a good time for the instructor to preface his "Abort Takeoff" with this... sure would reduce the panic and adrenaline, yet still allow for a teaching moment...

It's much more valuable to think it's not a drill and deal with the adrenaline, which would be pumping in a non-training flight, just another facet of dealing with the unexpected and not letting adenaline overpower the pilot's skills and judgements.

 

[gkainz]

It's much more valuable to think it's not a drill and deal with the adrenaline, which would be pumping in a non-training flight, just another facet of dealing with the unexpected and not letting adenaline overpower the pilot's skills and judgements.

until the bailout bell is pushed without the preface of "this is a drill" .... the fine art of turning an exercise into a full-blown emergency ...

 

[spiderweb]

The Golden Rule with NDBs is that when your angle = the deviation, you are on course, no matter what you're doing. So, for example, when you fly inbound on a 45 degree intercept heading, think of it as your angle. As the NDB needle moves away from the nose and approaches 45 degrees, turn. As the needle crosses 45 degrees, you are crossing the course. This also works for tracking (as opposed to homing).

So, it turns out that it had been about 6 weeks or so since I went out with my instructor, I'd been flying with a safety pilot trying to build up simulated hours. Not that it helped much, we had to cancel 5 times in a row due to +TS. Oh well.

Last night, we took off using soft field, and I was in ground effect, and just pulled back to Vx climb when my instructor shouted "abort the takeoff, abort the takeoff." So, I pulled power and put us back on the runway. I ask what is wrong, as all the gauges, etc., looked fine. He said my door had popped open, and sure enough, it had. I hadn't noticed on takeoff, and told him we should have just continued climbout and closed it once at safe altitude. True, he said with a big smile, but I'll bet you haven't practiced an aborted takeoff in a while, have you? We laugh and take off again.

Out at the practice area, I go partial panel for the first time. Vacuum failure, both AI and DG covered. I flounder around, and we fly all sorts of headings, turns, climbs, descents, accelerations, and decelerations, noting how the whiskey compass reacts. Definetly more practice needed here before doing PP approaches.

After this, we then move on and I do my first NDB approach at HDI, one involving a mandatory hold before heading inbound. This was pretty clumsy, and I had a hard time figuring out what to do when. Like most, I was trying to fly the ADF like a VOR, and that just doesn't work. I have to remember to stay on course so I know what the ADF is telling me. After that approach to missed, we went back to CHA and did the NDB 20 full approach, doing the outbound, then procedure turn, than back inbound to the full stop. This one went better, but I didn't pass over the OM, so wasn't able to take the last altitude letdown. He called "field in sight" really close in, so I had to bank over and line up, then he called short field landing, make the first turnoff.

And we did, by then my brain was mush. I need to really read up some more on those NDB approaches...

 

[poadeleted20]

Do you teach aborted takeoffs after getting airborne?

Only in the sim or with sufficient altitude to recover from an error. In the airplane, at 50 feet over the runway, it's too much like having combat troops practicing bleeding.

Should a student learn this while under the instruction of a CFI?

Yes, academically, and in the sim, and in flight with a simulated ground level of 1500 AGL or more. But not just over the runway. Ask TWA about what happens there (http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001211X15125&key=1 -- "The airplane was destroyed by fire.)"

Granted, this was a poor way of springing an aborted takeoff practice on someone, I'll give you that. But, my real question is, should one practice these at all, or just take your chances someday when your engine conks at 100agl?

IMO, the chance of an engine conking in that very narrow window between lifting off and getting to 400 AGL or so is smaller than the chance of collapsing the gear in a training event if that training event is done often enough. There's just too many things the trainee can do wrong that won't leave the instructor time enough to react to save the day. And if you still want to train for it, you don't spring it by surprise on a student at 50 feet -- you teach it, you brief it, you demo it, and THEN you have the student try it in a controlled fashion. Otherwise, it's like taking a student up on his first ride and dropping a spin on him without warning.

And yes, if the door pops on me again, I'll fly to a safe altitude, trim and stabilize the plane, then secure the door.

That's the ticket!

Anyway, any good hints on learning NDB approaches?

The NDB is in the middle of the RMI, and you are on the tail of the needle. Whichever way you turn, you are dragging the tail of the needle around the instrument in that direction. The only time you think any other way is when you look up to find the airport on which the NDB is located, and then you look where the arrow is pointing.

 

[spiderweb]

Do you teach aborted takeoffs after getting airborne? Should a student learn this while under the instruction of a CFI?

Granted, this was a poor way of springing an aborted takeoff practice on someone, I'll give you that. But, my real question is, should one practice these at all, or just take your chances someday when your engine conks at 100agl?

And yes, if the door pops on me again, I'll fly to a safe altitude, trim and stabilize the plane, then secure the door.

Anyway, any good hints on learning NDB approaches?

Bill, I kinda posted a thought on this below, but for the actual approach. . . .
Some people just "get" the NDB. For a long time, I didn't, then it suddenly clicked.

The thing that helped me was separating NDB work into two parts: 1) Understanding how the NDB tells you where you are, and 2) Applying that to the approach. The NDB approach, itself, isn't all that different from any other NPA; but if you don't understand what that needle is telling you, you won't be a happy camper. I did use MS2004 to practice these--not for the realism element, but more for just getting my head around the concepts.

You can also make an armchair in your living room into an NDB, and your hand into the ADF needle. Now walk around the room, turn from time to time, but always keep your hand pointed at that armchair. Now try an "approach" in your living room.

 

[Bill]

You can also make an armchair in your living room into an NDB, and your hand into the ADF needle. Now walk around the room, turn from time to time, but always keep your hand pointed at that armchair. Now try an "approach" in your living room.

I'll try that, for two reasons:

1.) It will probably help me, and

2.) My wife will think I'm even goofier than I already am, especially if I make airplane nioses

 

[Aztec Driver]

Having watched a takeoff that should have been aborted end in a wreck that destroyed two airplanes and two cars (including my wife's), I decided to practice an aborted TO or two months ago. They went w/o a hitch. Granted, it was not sprung on me by a CFI, but... I think it is not a bad idea to practice an abort or two. And yes, I did basically get airborne. Still in ground effect and not far off the ground, and +50 percentof runway still available. But I am not a CFI. So... I do agree that a popped open door on a cessna in flight is a minor distraction and not a big deal.
Jim G

One of those cars was yours, huh? What a depressing sight that was.

 

[Dave Siciliano]

BPPP (Bonanza Pilot's Profieiency Program) guys used to pop a door as part of currentcy training. Found out in the Barons with VGs that could disrupt airflow sufficiently to change the stall characteristics on landing. Had a couple incidents (or close calls) and stopped practicing those.

I've had doors pop open several times on rental Bonanzas or Barons. If on a long runway or early in the roll, I just pulled the throttles and stopped. Had a guy get in the right seat once who was a long time Bo guy (in the rain). He didn't get the door closed correctly (and this plane had an excellent door) and as we did the runup, it popped open. Out went everything loose in the cockpit--all charts, several loose pieces of paper and couple things I could never fully account for. He jumped out and ran down the taxi way in the rain policing up chats, etc. Luckily, there was no other traffic at the time. Tower asked if what they saw happening was part of our normal run up ;-). Wish now I would had one of those witty answers. I'm sure when I said no he could tell I was laughing. When my right seater got back in, I asked if we needed to taxi back; he said, let's go and we immediately departed for Dallas (from Charlottesville). Some of the charts came apart while we were navigatin with 'em on the way back. I can still visualize the event and still laugh when I do!!

Best,

Dave
Baron 322KS

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Only in the sim or with sufficient altitude to recover from an error. In the airplane, at 50 feet over the runway, it's too much like having combat troops practicing bleeding.

Yes, academically, and in the sim, and in flight with a simulated ground level of 1500 AGL or more. But not just over the runway. Ask TWA about what happens there (http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20001211X15125&key=1 -- "The airplane was destroyed by fire.)"

IMO, the chance of an engine conking in that very narrow window between lifting off and getting to 400 AGL or so is smaller than the chance of collapsing the gear in a training event if that training event is done often enough. There's just too many things the trainee can do wrong that won't leave the instructor time enough to react to save the day. And if you still want to train for it, you don't spring it by surprise on a student at 50 feet -- you teach it, you brief it, you demo it, and THEN you have the student try it in a controlled fashion. Otherwise, it's like taking a student up on his first ride and dropping a spin on him without warning.

That's the ticket!

The NDB is in the middle of the RMI, and you are on the tail of the needle. Whichever way you turn, you are dragging the tail of the needle around the instrument in that direction. The only time you think any other way is when you look up to find the airport on which the NDB is located, and then you look where the arrow is pointing.

Comparing the above noted ACTUAL TWA emergency in a good sized, malfunctioning jet, with insufficient runway left for a safe landing to our original scenario of a small GA piston popper at or just above normal approach speed & lined up perfectly for an elected landing (albeit a surprise to the flight student) with more than sufficient runway left for safe landing, is as futile as comparing the dangers of rye whiskey to those of rye bread.

Nor is the initial GA aircraft's TO abort and landing sequence like practicing bleeding for combat, of which I have no experience, but perhaps the military might.

It matters not what altitude the maneuver is initiated at but, what doesvery much matter as always, is that the runway length available is proper and that the aircraft is properly configured for the upcoming touchdown. SIMs are indeed a great learning tool to be used as well as practice maneuvers at higher altitudes but, are no substitute for properly executed real world flight maneuvers and SIMs can not fully yield the learning experience of real flying.

The odds of this sceario under discusion as well as any one of the multitude of possible real emergencies actually happening to a properly maintained GA aircraft in the hands of a competent pilot are so small that if we used those odds as a criteria for whether or not to practice said maneuvers, a case based on that false logic could be made for not practicing any of them in real flight at all, but only in SIMs or at high altitude.

 

[SkyHog]

I must be missing something. That NTSB report doesn't mention the aircraft being destroyed, and there are injuries, but I don't see how. The report reads to me like this:

Plane takes off, stick shaker malfunctions and starts shaking. First Officer hands off controls to Captain, who successfully lands plane and makes a turn off before hitting a barrier at the end of the runway (Why would there be a barrier at the end of the runway?). Aircraft was inspected and returned to service later.

What am I missing?

 

[Bill]

It matters not what altitude the maneuver is initiated at but, what doesvery much matter as always, is that the runway length available is proper and that the aircraft is properly configured for the upcoming touchdown.

To describe the runway environment:

We departed at the end of 20, a 7400x150 runway, with 10 degrees of flaps. At 60kts in ground effect, I pitched up for Vx climb, and that is when I was told to abort. I pulled the throttle, and put a nice landing on the runway in that configuration. We easily make echo turnoff with little braking, putting us up and down in 2500ft, leaving 4900ft of usable runway ahead of us.

 

[Gary Sortor]

To describe the runway environment:

We departed at the end of 20, a 7400x150 runway, with 10 degrees of flaps. At 60kts in ground effect, I pitched up for Vx climb, and that is when I was told to abort. I pulled the throttle, and put a nice landing on the runway in that configuration. We easily make echo turnoff with little braking, putting us up and down in 2500ft, leaving 4900ft of usable runway ahead of us.

Sounds like a nonevent. However, if it happened to me, I would have been pi**ed! I hope that I would have the sense to ignore the CFI when s/he tells me to abort a TO that we haven't discussed. If I aborted the landing, it would be to let the CFI get out of the plane.

 

[Bill]

If I aborted the landing, it would be to let the CFI get out of the plane.

Thanks, now I have to mop the coffee off the keyboard

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

NDB help:
I found this very simple, free simulator online and it really helped me to get oriented. Just keep doing them on this, with different winds and navaid locations and you will get it.
http://www.visi.com/~mim/nav/
Aborts:
The last time an instructor said something like that to me, I didn't do anything, I just asked him what the problem was. It is extremely rare that a true emergency occurs where you don't have time to question and assess. Although I don't think it should be beyond the capability of most pilots to handle (or instructors to take-over) a simulated abort from 50' on a 7500' rwy in a small airplane. But I still wouldn't do a lot of them given the choice!
Doors/windows:
Not all can be closed aloft, I found this out in my Viking. Just gotta circle back and do it on the ground. I was in one 150 that had such a poor latch that it seemed open more than closed! Air Vagabonds has a funny(?) story in which the rear airstair opened in flight. The pilot went back to close it (I think it was during a long overwater XC) and almost exited the airplane!

 

[spiderweb]

OK, my wag on the engine loss at low altitude. First of all, I think practicing them is a good thing to do, as long as it is done with a CFI proficient in the maneuver and conversant with the controls of the aircraft you are flying. We practiced engine loss procedures from altitudes above 1,000' (of course), but also at 500' at 50'. For each time we practiced we briefed the maneuver very carefully, with my CFI making me repeat it back to him, and the CFI demoed the first one. Only after I had done about twenty of them would the CFI ever "spring" one on me, and then it was always in controlled conditions. His point was that the first reaction was usually to pull back on the yoke (maybe a defensive response?), and that this was exactly the wrong thing to do. We had to practice that response out of me. Side note: he has actually witnessed an engine loss at 50 feet, with the pilot responding incorrectly, stalling the airplane and killing himself in the process.

Anyway, here was the procedure for 50': Lower the nose NOW, full flaps, flare and land.

 

[Let'sgoflying!]

I think Ben has the main problem nailed there... engine failures in many situations result in a bad outcome because we are in shock, or disbelief - and do not realize the airspeed is decaying rapidly and you have to shove it over NOW. FlyTheAirplane means just that, 'keep the air flowing over the wings'. Regardless of your current emotional state.

 

[spiderweb]

BTW, another thing we do, which you might consider is a "pretakeoff briefing," which we do as part of the before takeoff checklist, right before taking the runway. We usually review the takeoff procedure, engine instruments in the green at full power, Vr, sterile cockpit to 1,000', and contingencies for engine loss before that altitude.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Sounds like a nonevent. However, if it happened to me, I would have been pi**ed! I hope that I would have the sense to ignore the CFI when s/he tells me to abort a TO that we haven't discussed. If I aborted the landing, it would be to let the CFI get out of the plane.

Would you expect a CFI or examiner to warn you of an upcoming simulated engine failure as well ?

 

[Bill]

http://www.visi.com/~mim/nav/

Thanks, Dave, that looks really cool, I'll give it a whirl.

 

[Bill]

I think Ben has the main problem nailed there... engine failures in many situations result in a bad outcome because we are in shock, or disbelief - and do not realize the airspeed is decaying rapidly and you have to shove it over NOW.

Same with short field approaches when you're behind the power curve. The only way to increase maintain/increase airspeed is push it over.

 

[poadeleted20]

Nor is the initial GA aircraft's TO abort and landing sequence like practicing bleeding for combat, of which I have no experience, but perhaps the military might.

It is not the concept, but rather the actual circumstances which are the big problem here.

It matters not what altitude the maneuver is initiated at but, what doesvery much matter as always, is that the runway length available is proper and that the aircraft is properly configured for the upcoming touchdown.

Once the maneuver has been taught, and tested, and the instructor is sure of the student's response, then perhaps you are correct. But to surprise a student with this maneuver without ever having taught it or knowing whether the student can do it safely is taking a totally unnecessary risk. All the student has to do is ease up just a little on the yoke or cut power too fast and the nosewheel will impale the engine. And the accident report will read "Probable cause: Instructor allowed student to make improper control inputs."

SIMs are indeed a great learning tool to be used as well as practice maneuvers at higher altitudes but, are no substitute for properly executed real world flight maneuvers and SIMs can not fully yield the learning experience of real flying.

In time, after the student has demonstrated skill in the maneuver in the sim/at altitude. But even then, not always -- nobody pulls an engine in a twin on liftoff below Vsse while giving multi training except in the sim. You just don't do an aborted takeoff for the first time by surprise at 20 feet any more than you'd surprise a student with a spin on his first flight.

 

[poadeleted20]

Would you expect a CFI or examiner to warn you of an upcoming simulated engine failure as well ?

A CFI? Yes, the first time he did it. Nothing runs students off faster than surprising them with new material, especially in a way that scares them (ref: "Law of Effect" in the Aviation Instructor's Handbook). A DPE? Of course not, but in that case he has a paper signed by the instructor certifying that the student has been trained in the maneuver and is competent to perform it.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

It is not the concept, but rather the actual circumstances which are the big problem here.

Once the maneuver has been taught, and tested, and the instructor is sure of the student's response, then perhaps you are correct. But to surprise a student with this maneuver without ever having taught it or knowing whether the student can do it safely is taking a totally unnecessary risk. All the student has to do is ease up just a little on the yoke or cut power too fast and the nosewheel will impale the engine. And the accident report will read "Probable cause: Instructor allowed student to make improper control inputs."

In time, after the student has demonstrated skill in the maneuver in the sim/at altitude. But even then, not always -- nobody pulls an engine in a twin on liftoff below Vsse while giving multi training except in the sim. You just don't do an aborted takeoff for the first time by surprise at 20 feet any more than you'd surprise a student with a spin on his first flight.

A CFI too slow on corrective reactions during a maneuver that HE initiated ( either an aborted take off or say, even a normal or crosswind landing that the student screwed up with excessive control inputs that you mention above) is ready for a new job.

Yeah, I could certainly see not pulling engine on a twin at real low altitudes because of their performance limitations.

Flight students that can't handle surprises effectively, really should find another pastime besides flying or it will eventually be their undoing.

 

[bbchien]

A CFI? Yes, the first time he did it. Nothing runs students off faster than surprising them with new material, especially in a way that scares them (ref: "Law of Effect" in the Aviation Instructor's Handbook). A DPE? Of course not, but in that case he has a paper signed by the instructor certifying that the student has been trained in the maneuver and is competent to perform it.

My briefing: "At some time during this flight I will pull an engine. It will be for real, it will not be below 200 agl and will not be below Vysse. I may also pull it before departure, at less than 25 knots. Got it?"

 

[Dave Siciliano]

Prior to flying with a new CFI, we have a discussion about what we wish to accomplish in the flight, how we'll do it and which of us will do what. I make it clear, the CFI is not to pull an engine in this plane (unless he wishes to pay for the engine, down time and interium aircraft time while mine is being repaired ;-)). We can do gradual reductions in power for single engine work. No CHTs above 380. One CFI told me the mixtures were his on takeoff. If anything went wrong and I didn't react quickly enough, he'd pull the mixtures. We had some discussion about when the mixtures might be pulled and why and agreed.

There are several issues which can be discussed and should be. It's quite a challenge sometimes to fly a turboed twin and have the CFI (non-owner) in charge. Each of you has issues which must be addressed. I've not had any issue with the truely good CFIs. Did make the mistake of flying with one that didn't know the equipment (and wasn't willing to listen) and in particular the JPI which is a critical instrument to me. After a very candid conversation about this being his last flight with me unless he either did some reading or deferred to me, this got worked out.

It's interesting. When you begin, you have little perspective and the CFI talks directly to diety. As you progress and gain ratings, you look at the CFI as a mentor and peer; you should each learn from one another. Flying a plane like mine, unless that CFI is flying another just like it, there are a lot of things I'm just flat going to have more experience with than him/her. I have a lot to learn, don't get me wrong, but there aren't a lot of CFIs around here with high P-Baron time and the avionics that are in my plane. We're both careful: I write the checks and he keeps me proficient.

I'm flying with one of the BPPP instructors. He mostly has jet time, but knows the systems well and we feed on one another when it comes to understanding how to fly, operate and improve.

Best,

Dave
Baron 322KS

 

[poadeleted20]

A CFI too slow on corrective reactions during a maneuver that HE initiated ( either an aborted take off or say, even a normal or crosswind landing that the student screwed up with excessive control inputs that you mention above) is ready for a new job....Flight students that can't handle surprises effectively, really should find another pastime besides flying or it will eventually be their undoing.

First, students are students, not trained pilots. You can't expect them to handle something you for which you haven't trained them yet, especially by surprise. Second, when you're trying really critical maneuvers like an engine failure immediately after liftoff, there are things a student can do to which no CFI can react fast enough, and that's something I've learned in 32 years as a CFI. That's why you don't do that for the first time in a critical situation with a student whom you do not know has been successfully trained on that maneuver before, again, especially not by surprise. The original post indicated that this was the first time the trainee had ever attempted this, and the CFI had no idea whether the trainee could do it or not -- he was simply reacting inappropriately to a situation that had arisen. And for that I fault the CFI on both counts.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

First, students are students, not trained pilots. You can't expect them to handle something you for which you haven't trained them yet, especially by surprise. Second, when you're trying really critical maneuvers like an engine failure immediately after liftoff, there are things a student can do to which no CFI can react fast enough, and that's something I've learned in 32 years as a CFI. That's why you don't do that for the first time in a critical situation with a student whom you do not know has been successfully trained on that maneuver before, again, especially not by surprise. The original post indicated that this was the first time the trainee had ever attempted this, and the CFI had no idea whether the trainee could do it or not -- he was simply reacting inappropriately to a situation that had arisen. And for that I fault the CFI on both counts.

Training for IFR and never done an engine out on lift off before that maneuver ?
Despicable prior training, if true.

 

[poadeleted20]

Training for IFR and never done an engine out on lift off before that maneuver ?
Despicable prior training, if true.

Well, it's not a PTS-required maneuver and it's not in 61.107. You want to bet your butt that some Private pilot off the street with whom you have never flown has ever done it before? Not I. And don't even think about it with a student pilot.

Let's face it, Dave -- this CFI was not thinking straight when he called for the abort. It was the wrong response for the unlatched door, and a bad idea for a "surprise" emergency in that situation.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Well, it's not a PTS-required maneuver and it's not in 61.107. You want to bet your butt that some Private pilot off the street with whom you have never flown has ever done it before? Not I. And don't even think about it with a student pilot.

Let's face it, Dave -- this CFI was not thinking straight when he called for the abort. It was the wrong response for the unlatched door, and a bad idea for a "surprise" emergency in that situation.

No thanks, I wouldn't bet my butt on those typical private pilot's previous training, I know them generally quite well on average.

But in contrast, that's where I learned it (private pilot training and above) and other maneuvers not required in the PTS, from a few different FBOs with different CFIs -some voluntarily more performance concious than others and others because I asked for it.

Minimal training to just PTS ? ...Yields the minimum acceptable pilot for the given rating.

 

[Bill]

Training for IFR and never done an engine out on lift off before that maneuver ?
Despicable prior training, if true.

Not true, I've done aborted takeoffs before, with the same CFII who was my primary instructor as well.