Multi engine time in AirCam aircraft?

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Pilot-To-Be

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Hi,

I recently had a friend invite me to fly his AirCam with him. It is obviously an experimental, but is a twin engine airplane. I am rated for multi engine aircraft and I’m working toward getting time for the airlines. Will time in this AirCam qualify appropriately toward the 50 hours needed toward ATP?
 
Pilot-To-Be said:
Hi,

I recently had a friend invite me to fly his AirCam with him. It is obviously an experimental, but is a twin engine airplane. I am rated for multi engine aircraft and I’m working toward getting time for the airlines. Will time in this AirCam qualify appropriately toward the 50 hours needed toward ATP?
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Yes.

I am curious though, what makes you think it might not qualify? Because it's experimental? Because it's an unusual design?

Heck, the Cri-Cri counts as multi.

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RussR said:
Yes.

I am curious though, what makes you think it might not qualify? Because it's experimental? Because it's an unusual design?

Heck, the Cri-Cri counts as multi.

View attachment 128976
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I do not have my tailwheel endorsement and this particular AirCam is tailwheel. That said, because I am rated for multi engine, I should be able to log sole manipulator once in the air and that will count toward my total multi engine PIC time, right? I don’t want to do anything that could look shady to a future employer.
 
So I found the letter of interpretation so I can LOG it, I just can’t ACT as it.

That being said, my logbook says “AS PILOT IN COMMAND (INCL SOLO)”

How do I differentiate ACT vs LOG PIC in my logbook? Remarks? And does it count toward my total PIC? Sorry for the confusion.
 
Pilot in command as sole manip of the contols inan aircraft for which you are othewise rated"
 
If he doesn't have the tw endorsement, he is not rated. Get the endorsement, then log it all.
 
Mikey52 said:
If he doesn't have the tw endorsement, he is not rated. Get the endorsement, then log it all.
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Wrong.

An endorsement is not a rating. He can LOG it.
Heck, even an instrument rating doesn't mean rated as far as logging goes.

Man I wish you people would do some research before spouting this crap.
 
So if you're not qualified, you are qualified, got it.
 
Mikey52 said:
So if you're not qualified, you are qualified, got it.
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Being pilot in command has never been a necessary nor sufficient condition to log PIC.
61.51(e)(1)(i) only requires a category and class rating to log Aircam time as the sole manipulator of the controls.
 
Pilot-To-Be said:
So I found the letter of interpretation so I can LOG it, I just can’t ACT as it.

That being said, my logbook says “AS PILOT IN COMMAND (INCL SOLO)”

How do I differentiate ACT vs LOG PIC in my logbook? Remarks? And does it count toward my total PIC? Sorry for the confusion.
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It counts towards everything except any requirements specifically stated as “acting” PIC, and there are no regulatory experience requirements that I’m aware of that require a certain amount of “acting” PIC.

The difference might come up in an airline hiring environment, so however you differentiate it, ensure that there’s no way someone could say you’re trying to hide he difference in your logbook.
 
MauleSkinner said:
The difference might come up in an airline hiring environment, so however you differentiate it, ensure that there’s no way someone could say you’re trying to hide he difference in your logbook.
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That’s primarily the reason for asking this question. I don’t want any gray area or anything that could be shady ever come up in an interview. What do you recommend? Just write in the remarks section that I was sole manipulator?
 
Mikey52 said:
If he doesn't have the tw endorsement, he is not rated. Get the endorsement, then log it all.
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Wrong. Rated is for category and class, and if required, Type. As long as someone else is acting as PIC you can log any time that you are sole manipulator of the controls in an aircraft in which your are rated. A person without a tailwheel endorsement, high-performance endorsement, complex endorsement, high altitude endorsement, etc., but has a multi-rating, is rated for any multi-engine aircraft.

§ 61.51 Pilot logbooks.
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time.

(1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-
(i) Except when logging flight time under § 61.159(c), when the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;
 
If he is acting as pic, then the other person is a passenger during that time.

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (i)(2) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a tailwheel airplane unless that person has received and logged flight training from an authorized instructor in a tailwheel airplane and received an endorsement in the person's logbook from an authorized instructor who found the person proficient in the operation of a tailwheel airplane. The flight training must include at least the following maneuvers and procedures:
(i) Normal and crosswind takeoffs and landings;
(ii) Wheel landings (unless the manufacturer has recommended against such landings); and
(iii) Go-around procedures.
(2) The training and endorsement required by paragraph (i)(1) of this section is not required if the person logged pilot-in-command time in a tailwheel airplane before April 15, 1991.
 
Mikey52 said:
If he is acting as pic, then the other person is a passenger during that time.

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (i)(2) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a tailwheel airplane unless that person has received and logged flight training from an authorized instructor in a tailwheel airplane and received an endorsement in the person's logbook from an authorized instructor who found the person proficient in the operation of a tailwheel airplane. The flight training must include at least the following maneuvers and procedures:
(i) Normal and crosswind takeoffs and landings;
(ii) Wheel landings (unless the manufacturer has recommended against such landings); and
(iii) Go-around procedures.
(2) The training and endorsement required by paragraph (i)(1) of this section is not required if the person logged pilot-in-command time in a tailwheel airplane before April 15, 1991.
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Reading is hard:

www.pilotsofamerica.com

The definitive PIC thread.

There is some definite confusion of what PIC (Pilot In Command) is, who is PIC, when one logs PIC, why the PIC can’t log PIC in some situations, and why someone who can’t act as PIC can log PIC. So let’s see if we can break it down and try to grasp that elusive concept of Acting PIC vs logging...
www.pilotsofamerica.com www.pilotsofamerica.com
 
Almost Mikey. On every flight someone must be qualified to be PIC. Since he does not have a tailwheel endorsement for a tailwheel aircraft, he cannot ACT as PIC. If he is not qualified to be PIC then he is a passenger.
Logging PIC time does not require one to be acting as PIC. IF he is sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft that he has Category and Class ratings for he can LOG PIC time.
Similar rules apply to logging PIC time when acting as a safety pilot.
 
Pilot-To-Be said:
That’s primarily the reason for asking this question. I don’t want any gray area or anything that could be shady ever come up in an interview. What do you recommend? Just write in the remarks section that I was sole manipulator?
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I would suggest that if your “As PIC” column totals include the Air Cam time, an argument could be made that you’re trying to pull some wool over their eyes.

I’m not advocating any specific method of denoting it, just be able to clearly explain how much of each you might have.
 
So you're applying for a job as an airline pilot and they find out you got your ATP with 50 hours multi in an Aircam with no tailwheel endorsement? Is this a realistic scenario? Something to lay awake at night worrying about?
 
Pilot-To-Be said:
I do not have my tailwheel endorsement and this particular AirCam is tailwheel. That said, because I am rated for multi engine, I should be able to log sole manipulator once in the air and that will count toward my total multi engine PIC time, right? I don’t want to do anything that could look shady to a future employer.
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You already look shady here... so just go get the endorsement before it becomes a bigger issue.
 
Go find a King Air pilot with MEI, do a few trips right seat with him. He can log you dual received and give high altitude endorsement. Get some real turbine IFR Multi experience. That would be more valuable.
 
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