MU2 vs Turbine Single

dans2992

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Dans2992
So, browsing Meridians, and it seems that a reasonably equipped MU2 can be obtained for around $1m less.

The Garrett’s are loud, but efficient. Mission does not require a twin turbine, but $1m can buy a lot of Jet A.

I’m hearing that support and dispatch reliability of MU2’s is great, and that Meridians are …. “Not built so well”.

Also hearing that MU2s have no air conditioning whatsoever, so operating on the ground in Phoenix could be ill advised.

Mission would require 5 seats (for light people), so typical 4-place turbines don’t meet the requirements….

Anyone with opinions or sage advice? :)
 
Hell, you can buy a Citation Mustang for the same or less than a used Meridian. I assume where you then lose out is the fuel burn and operating costs.
 
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What is the experience level of the pilot?

MU2 is fast, but for a first turbine pro class plane, I would recommend the piper, read the accident reports

TPEs are only loud if you’re on the outside and in front of them, no factor but make sure you tip your line guy


These are nice first turbines too

https://www.controller.com/listing/...9-cessna-p210-silver-eagle-turboprop-aircraft

Interesting. Looking at the weights I can take full fuel, myself and my flight bag… :)

Regarding pilot experience - 1300 hrs, 850 retract, and 25 ME. I’m not the ace of the base, but I’m thinking the mandatory SFAR training on the MU2 and some diligent study should help?
 
"omg no, that plane is a total deathcookie/maintenance nightmare!" -- everyone who has never owned a turbine. I'd qualify the advice you get, since I've seen damn near every opinion offered on every turbine.

I have never owned a turbine and thus have no advice to give. I'm both MU-2 and Merlin curious though. The mits will alternately: kill me, require extensive downtime, have an autopilot I can never get parts for; The merlin will simply kill me unless I always have a second and maybe third crewmember at all times, and working on it is apparently akin to entering the minotaur's labyrinth in a Borat thongtard covered in steaks, and mechanics will TP my house for even asking them to consider turning a wrench on the thing.

I wallow in my continued ignorance as a result, stuck in piston doldrums. :D
 
I couldn’t get an insurance company to talk to me about a twin piston let alone turbine, without 250 hours of ME time, and I have similar experience. Hope you have better luck than I did.
 
Interesting. Looking at the weights I can take full fuel, myself and my flight bag… :)

Regarding pilot experience - 1300 hrs, 850 retract, and 25 ME. I’m not the ace of the base, but I’m thinking the mandatory SFAR training on the MU2 and some diligent study should help?

How much IMC time in a plane that goes over 200kts, how much experience in ice?

Good training can do wonders, however
With those hours no one would hire you into a MU2
Just to put it in reference

As I read the silver eagle has a ok normal payload, I would go with something more familiar, piper would work well too, maybe a TBM?

Lower ME time into a ME would be easier in many twin jets over a twin turbo prop, especially something like a MU
 
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Citation ISP. (600-900k). Make sure you get ones with P&W so you are not beholden to Williams then just HSI the engines.

Even with an MU2, remember at these speeds it’s cost per mile. If you’re not unlucky, you can run these at Cessna 421 OpEx levels.

And if you’re near Chicago, I’m interested.
 
Interesting. Looking at the weights I can take full fuel, myself and my flight bag… :)

A M600 would likely suit your mission loaded for 3 hrs plus reserves. It will cover a bit of ground in the average 5 passenger BT (bladder time).
 
Citation ISP. (600-900k). Make sure you get ones with P&W so you are not beholden to Williams then just HSI the engines.

Even with an MU2, remember at these speeds it’s cost per mile. If you’re not unlucky, you can run these at Cessna 421 OpEx levels.

And if you’re near Chicago, I’m interested.

What’s the performance difference between the PWs and FJs?

As I recall the small PW are not that great, most Williams are FADEC and out preform and are better economy
 
What’s the performance difference between the PWs and FJs?

As I recall the small PW are not that great, most Williams are FADEC and out preform and are better economy
PWs are heavier (add aft CG) and burn more. I don’t recall big differences in power. FADEC definitely opens doors, but if you want to run cheap, go PW (no mandatory overhauls). Plus, I’d rather pay/burn more but also get to announce my arrival via thrust reversers :cool:
 
PWs are heavier (add aft CG) and burn more. I don’t recall big differences in power. FADEC definitely opens doors, but if you want to run cheap, go PW (no mandatory overhauls). Plus, I’d rather pay/burn more but also get to announce my arrival via thrust reversers :cool:

The TRs are nice, but as I recall the TR failures and ice issues just don’t give me the warm fuzzies, also most landing numbers are without TRs no?

PT6 is nice, as are their larger engines, but mid size I’m not a fan of the engines or the low cost operators who run them

But with that sized jet, go into the infamous aspen with pw and you leave empty, FJs will do a rev leg out
 
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I was watching one of Ted’s YouTube videos of an MU2 dog run… :)

Seriously though, if there’s no AC, I think the family will scratch it off the list. :/

Climb speed and cruse temps you’re operating in, it’s not a huge issue unless youre stuck in TX FL on the ground for a long time

And if you’re the demographic that is flying a sub 1M turbine


https://www.icybreeze.com/
 
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The TRs are nice, but as I recall the TR failures and ice issues just don’t give me the warm fuzzies, also most numbers are without TRs no?

PT6 is nice, as are their larger engines, but mid size I’m not a fan of the engines or the low cost operators who run them
I’ve heard the TR issues as rumors, but have never heard anything first or second hand. Do we know what brought down the Citation off of MQY? I think all numbers are negative TR. Where TRs are at home is when it’s a contaminated runway. That’s where non-TR birds suffer. Then again, PT6/Garrets do fine there as well.

I’m a fan of PT6s and would also go the MU2 route … but if I’m going to have an engine failure, I’d rather it be in a PW turbofan. If I were staring at an 800k MU2 and an 800k Citation, I’d have a tough time deciding.
 
I’ve heard the TR issues as rumors, but have never heard anything first or second hand. Do we know what brought down the Citation off of MQY? I think all numbers are negative TR. Where TRs are at home is when it’s a contaminated runway. That’s where non-TR birds suffer. Then again, PT6/Garrets do fine there as well.

I’m a fan of PT6s and would also go the MU2 route … but if I’m going to have an engine failure, I’d rather it be in a PW turbofan. If I were staring at an 800k MU2 and an 800k Citation, I’d have a tough time deciding.


FSI trains the heck out of TR failures, lots of memory items

Also I believe there were a few ice induced dual flame outs of some of the PTs, non in FJs

“Good enough for a cruse missile”
This is all jets vs the OPs turbo prop though
 
Regarding pilot experience - 1300 hrs, 850 retract, and 25 ME. I’m not the ace of the base, but I’m thinking the mandatory SFAR training on the MU2 and some diligent study should help?

This is not a plane for you my friend. The MU-2 is not a first twin or a plane for people new to multi-engine flight. Personally, I prefer to see someone have 1,000 hours of multi time before getting into an MU-2. I had about 2,500 hours of multi time including around 750 cabin class, 100 turbine, and most immediately prior 250 in the 414. There are exceptions. But no, you should not consider it with your experience level.

Regarding the AC, MU-2s have an air cycle machine which is not the same as freon air conditioning but still cools the air. I always found it pretty effective, and running at 100% RPM ground idle instead of normal ground idle (~65%) will not make you any friends but will make the ACM cool the air better. I wouldn't expect it to keep up with Phoenix summers but it always kept me comfortable enough.

Another thing to keep in mind about summers in the mountains is that there is a limitation (at least on the F model I flew, and I think this stayed true all the way through the Solitaire/Marquise) that prohibited takeoff above 8,000 ft DA. I don't know where you intend to fly, but if it's a high altitude airport, that could create an issue.
 
FSI trains the heck out of TR failures, lots of memory items

Also I believe there were a few ice induced dual flame outs of some of the PTs, non in FJs

“Good enough for a cruse missile”
This is all jets vs the OPs turbo prop though
It’s been several years, but I don’t recall more than a few memory items for inadvertent TR deployments. Perhaps FSI has changed things a bit with Cessna.
I’m typed in the 500, 560XL, 680, and 750 as far as Cessnas go.
 
Also I find it unusual to have a turbine powered pressurized aircraft that doesn’t have AC. Learn something new everyday.
 
Well,
This is not a plane for you my friend. The MU-2 is not a first twin or a plane for people new to multi-engine flight. Personally, I prefer to see someone have 1,000 hours of multi time before getting into an MU-2. I had about 2,500 hours of multi time including around 750 cabin class, 100 turbine, and most immediately prior 250 in the 414. There are exceptions. But no, you should not consider it with your experience level.

Regarding the AC, MU-2s have an air cycle machine which is not the same as freon air conditioning but still cools the air. I always found it pretty effective, and running at 100% RPM ground idle instead of normal ground idle (~65%) will not make you any friends but will make the ACM cool the air better. I wouldn't expect it to keep up with Phoenix summers but it always kept me comfortable enough.

Another thing to keep in mind about summers in the mountains is that there is a limitation (at least on the F model I flew, and I think this stayed true all the way through the Solitaire/Marquise) that prohibited takeoff above 8,000 ft DA. I don't know where you intend to fly, but if it's a high altitude airport, that could create an issue.

ok, well due to the experience issues, and the DA takeoff limitation, I think it’s off the list then. Appreciate your advice.

Just browsing “controller.com” it seems that a early-ish model Meridian can be had for the same price as a citation Mustang. Is the mustang that “undesirable”? I assume the operating costs would be much higher.

Another option would (maybe) be a Lancair IV-P turbine (most seem to have the Walter 601) or the Evolution. (Piston versions seem to have excessive engine failures, so I think not safe enough for my risk tolerance, but even with the turbine, yes I understand they’re unforgiving).

Someone suggested a Citation I SP, but those steam gauges appear to perhaps be a maintenance nightmare, and I assume the fuel burn is huge and maintenance will be expensive and often. FBOs will empty your wallet to park a “twin jet” on their ramp, etc.

whatever it is, I expect I’d fly 100-200 hrs a year for the next 20 years or so….. maybe looking for a plane for the next 20 years is a bit too forward looking….
 
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a cheap plane this is not..!

silver eagle
It's not a "real" turbine. I mean, it has a turbine engine sure, but it was designed from the outset as a piston plane. You're going to be burning a ton of fuel, have weird fuel and CG requirements, while none of your critical v speeds change demonstrably.. skip
 
a cheap plane this is not..!


It's not a "real" turbine. I mean, it has a turbine engine sure, but it was designed from the outset as a piston plane. You're going to be burning a ton of fuel, have weird fuel and CG requirements, while none of your critical v speeds change demonstrably.. skip

A TBM also feels much like a turbine conversion sign the cramped engine bay and inspection mirrors
 
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What is that reason?

Also, seems like an engine failure in a Cheyenne would be much more easily handled than in something like a Seneca, no? Much more excess power, etc..

And drag
 
It would be helpful to build some time in a smaller twin until you have some decent time and experience to move to the bigger twins. Imagine it will be hard to get insured in a cabin class twin turbine with little ME time.
Navajo might fit those missions for awhile and will be a bit easier to get insured.
 
It would be helpful to build some time in a smaller twin until you have some decent time and experience to move to the bigger twins. Imagine it will be hard to get insured in a cabin class twin turbine with little ME time.
Navajo might fit those missions for awhile and will be a bit easier to get insured.

I don’t think it’s the twin factor as much as the speed and wing loading
 
What is the reason that used Mustangs seem to be cheaper (or same cost) on average than Meridians of the same vintage?

Is this similar to the reason why piston twins can be cheaper than piston singles - Ie nobody wants the fuel and maintenance of 2 engines?
 
Also I find it unusual to have a turbine powered pressurized aircraft that doesn’t have AC. Learn something new everyday.

I'm not aware of any pressurized turbine aircraft without some form of AC. As I noted, the MU-2 has an air cycle machine like many other turbine aircraft, but it doesn't have freon AC (which you'd probably know better than me, but I mostly am familiar with being on smaller PT-6 aircraft).

ok, well due to the experience issues, and the DA takeoff limitation, I think it’s off the list then. Appreciate your advice.

You're welcome. I love the MU-2, but I hate NTSB reports. It's a fantastic airplane, but it's not a good fit for everyone.

Another option would (maybe) be a Lancair IV-P turbine (most seem to have the Walter 601) or the Evolution. (Piston versions seem to have excessive engine failures, so I think not safe enough for my risk tolerance, but even with the turbine, yes I understand they’re unforgiving).

The IV-P I would take off the list for similar reasons to the MU-2, if not moreso. That's an exceedingly unforgiving aircraft.

The Evolution, on the other hand, actually is pretty docile to fly. I only ever flew the piston version when I was working on that engine. As I recall, Lancair had designed the Evolution to be Part 23 certifiable as far as flight/handling characteristics are concerned. I always liked that airplane. I don't know if things have improved with them, I think they have, but the one I have time in got converted to a turbine and is now at the bottom of the ocean from what seems to have been a pressurization failure, which was a problem with those planes.

Incidentally, I haven't followed the piston Evolution (it was essentially out of production for some time) but the high rate of engine failures I find interesting. I can say that the piston variant was a dog performance wise for climb, and the specs called for full power climb. Which, on a 350 HP piston engine... not my recommendation.

The IV-P I would take off the list. The Evolution I would say is a consideration, but I would research the bulkhead/pressurization failures.


There's Cheyennes, and there's Cheyennes. I love the 400LS as much as anyone (maybe moreso), but there's only 25 of them still flying. You basically have one shop that supports them (in Pennsylvania, which is not convenient to Phoenix).

The Cheyenne I/II are basically pressurized Navajos with PT-6s, whereas the III/400 are a completely different aircraft that shares essentially nothing besides the name.

But with 25 ME time in the current insurance market, the OP is going to have a hard time getting insurance in a twin. It will be expensive and there will be significant transition requirements.

does that auto feather?

Yes.

What is the reason that used Mustangs seem to be cheaper (or same cost) on average than Meridians of the same vintage?

Is this similar to the reason why piston twins can be cheaper than piston singles - Ie nobody wants the fuel and maintenance of 2 engines?

I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that the Mustang is slow and a poor performer as far as jets go. Keep in mind that's by design, it's supposed to be simpler and entry level. A friend of mine has had one for a few years and he seems to enjoy it for his missions.

If the space, capacity, and useful load aren't an issue for you, then I wouldn't see an issue one but I have never flown one. The biggest benefit I see to a Mustang/M600 is they're still in production, still supported by the OEMs, and so you'll have some form of support as far as transition training goes. A friend of mine is going through a similar exercise to you right now, as he has similar hours (but his are almost all multi, and he had a Cheyenne for a couple hundred hours) and the insurance requirements are what make a lot of it hard. You may want to talk to a good broker about this some.

I do have a broker I can recommend in Phoenix as far as that goes. Not someone I use personally (as I have no airplane to insure), but have recommended him to others and seen good results.
 
Well,


ok, well due to the experience issues, and the DA takeoff limitation, I think it’s off the list then. Appreciate your advice.

Just browsing “controller.com” it seems that a early-ish model Meridian can be had for the same price as a citation Mustang. Is the mustang that “undesirable”? I assume the operating costs would be much higher.

Another option would (maybe) be a Lancair IV-P turbine (most seem to have the Walter 601) or the Evolution. (Piston versions seem to have excessive engine failures, so I think not safe enough for my risk tolerance, but even with the turbine, yes I understand they’re unforgiving).

Someone suggested a Citation I SP, but those steam gauges appear to perhaps be a maintenance nightmare, and I assume the fuel burn is huge and maintenance will be expensive and often. FBOs will empty your wallet to park a “twin jet” on their ramp, etc.

whatever it is, I expect I’d fly 100-200 hrs a year for the next 20 years or so….. maybe looking for a plane for the next 20 years is a bit too forward looking….

Mustang is a terrific family airplane. Slow for a jet but fast for a GA plane, super easy to fly, safe and comfortable for the family. The AC works very well too. The reason they are cheap (relatively speaking) is that the bulk of the people who have $2M+ to spend on an owner flown airplane are spooked by the type rating and recurrent training requirements. Most of those people are older and don't have a ton of free time and they don't feel comfortable with the training so they spend 2X the money on a TBM which is slower, doesn't fly as high, has less redundancy, etc (yes it has small advantages in range and short field ops but not enough to justify the price delta).
 
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If the space, capacity, and useful load aren't an issue for you, then I wouldn't see an issue one but I have never flown one. The biggest benefit I see to a Mustang/M600 is they're still in production, still supported by the OEMs, and so you'll have some form of support as far as transition training goes. A friend of mine is going through a similar exercise to you right now, as he has similar hours (but his are almost all multi, and he had a Cheyenne for a couple hundred hours) and the insurance requirements are what make a lot of it hard. You may want to talk to a good broker about this some.

Textron stopped producing the Mustang in 2017 IIRC - but they are indeed still very well supported and will be for a long time.
 
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What's the typically "magic number" for multi-time and insurance? At least as it might relate to something like a baron or Seneca or 310..?
 
What's the typically "magic number" for multi-time and insurance? At least as it might relate to something like a baron or Seneca or 310..?

This is something of a moving target as insurance companies change what they want with fluctuating markets. Right now, things are very tight. However, Baron/310/Seneca (with the exception of the P-Baron) are planes that you can usually step into with a fresh multi ticket and are reasonable to do so. For a while there, people were able to move from SR22s right up into 421s, which is just a bad idea. The SR22 to SF50 I think is a better/easier transition for a lot of reasons.

Not long ago I heard about someone who was actually able to get quoted on a 421 with 300 hours total time, which surprised me they could even get a quote. However it was a $20k quote, and I'm not sure what the hull value or liability limits were, I think it was a 421B so not all that high.
 
Someone could always go rent a Seneca and buzz around for 50 or 100 hours, but I’m not sure that would make them any more proficient in the “big iron” so to speak.

Now, insurance companies do know a thing or two about risk, so that should be considered, but I met a very experienced pilot the other day who couldn’t get insured in a Citation, so they simply went “liability only”. Always an option, but, probably not something I would do.
 
Nice thing about an MU-2 is when someone gears it up in front of your house, the props don't get damaged.
 
I flew a Meridian for about seven years and over 800 hours. I used it mostly for trips under 700 miles, but did several trips over 1,200 miles, as well. Many of those trips were with my family of five and baggage, It is a comfortable cabin and has a reasonable amount of baggage space. The rule of thumb was that the airplane was great for going 250 kts on 250 lbs of Jet A per hour.

Although Piper made many improvements to the later model M600s, the airplane is not as robust as the TBM. However, it is a very good airplane and reasonably easy to fly. It is also substantially less money to operate the Meridian than the TBM.

I treated training in the Meridian the same way I treat training in jets now; I went to recurrent every year and sometimes two times a year. It is a serious airplane with serious performance capabilities in challenging environments, so many insurance companies require annual training, but it is a good idea anyway.

The PT6 is a really great engine and I would feel very comfortable behind it. I upgraded the avionics from the original Meggitt system to all Garmin and it was excellent. I had two GTN 750s and two G500s, along with the original MFD for the radar. There were screens in that airplane than I knew what to do with!

One thing to consider is that acquisition cost is only the start of the analysis. The operating cost really needs to include all fixed and variable costs, including the cost of capital. To that end, any turbine is going to be expensive to operate and I had to get comfortable with all of those numbers before I was ready to pull the trigger. I also had owned and operated three other airplanes before I bought the Meridian, so I was not caught completely off guard.

Overall, the airplane was a very good first turbine airplane with good training, reasonable load, reasonable speed, moderate operating costs and good support.

If you have any specific questions, and i remember the answers, I am happy to share them. I hope that this is helpful!

Abram Finkelstein
N685AS
 
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