Mountain Flying

NealRomeoGolf

NealRomeoGolf

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Ok, possible stupid question. What is the definition of mountain flying? Terrain with certain rises over a short period of distance? Peaks that are such and such high? If the area is called Whatever Mountain, because it has mountain in it that means flying over it is mountain flying?

I'm still paper planning a flight out east and in the middle of one of my routes is the Adirondacks. I have no mountain flying training so I'm guessing it's smart for me to add a half hour of flight time and go from 0G7 (Finger Lakes) to GFL (Glenn Falls) and then turn north to head to PBG (Plattsburgh) rather than go over the mountains. It would seem to me, though, that the Adirondacks would be some of the tamest mountains the US has to offer (at least as far as peak size).
 
Any mountain can get rough. Depends on the weather particularly the wind. I've been beat up pretty good a few times. If you have some leeway waiting a bit usually finds a window. Coming home is a little tougher to adjust but we've stopped short several times. Talked once to FSS from Alamosa. He said trucks were warned off of I-25 so we landed and enjoyed an evening in Alamosa.
 
It's not a stupid question at all.

My personal definition: The understanding ofhow wind and weather behave and are affected by large changes in terrain over a relatively short distance and the application of that understanding to operations affected by it. An airplane crossing the Allegheny mountains at 5000 msl is definitely mountain flying. A airplane at FL210 over those same mountains is not mountain flying; that same airplane needing to divert to an airport in the Allegheny mountains is.

Context for my personal definition: I learned how to fly in New England and flew into airports in the VT and NH mountains. I now live in North Carolina and fly into airports in the Blue Ridge mountains. Between the two I spent 20 years flying in the Rockies.
 
Even on days with mild winds, I've hit considerable turbulence over 1600' foothills, so any bump in the topography needs to be respected.

My DAR inspector had a great sense of humor and gave me a practice area that required flying up the Cajon Pass...Big Bear on the right and Mt. Baldy on the left. Fun & turbulent times in a brand new airframe!!!
 
Search YouTube for the brilliant 7 part series on Mountain Flying by the San Carlos Ca training group the Finer Point, by flying chops.

Watch this free hi-res series, and it will open a flat landers eyes about mountain flying.

Here's one of the video titles:
Landing at 8,500 ft Density Altitude - NorCal - C182 Skylane - California Mountain Flying

-NordicDave
 
Flying in the mountains is mountain flying. The lower the weather the better you need to know your way around. Big wide valleys are easy. They aren't all big and wide.
 

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Stewart, that's the way to mountain fly, a 20mm gun mounted to the strut to "shoot the peaks" off the jagged edges.....;)
 
SoCal RV Flyer said:
My DAR inspector had a great sense of humor and gave me a practice area that required flying up the Cajon Pass...Big Bear on the right and Mt. Baldy on the left. Fun & turbulent times in a brand new airframe!!!
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Slightly off topic, but I just find it very amusing that pretty much anywhere you go there will be a Mt. Baldy!
 
Can't find it Dave. Can you provide a link please?

NordicDave said:
Search YouTube for the brilliant 7 part series on Mountain Flying by the San Carlos Ca training group the Finer Point, by flying chops.

Watch this free hi-res series, and it will open a flat landers eyes about mountain flying.

Here's one of the video titles:
Landing at 8,500 ft Density Altitude - NorCal - C182 Skylane - California Mountain Flying

-NordicDave
Click to expand...
 
I'd say you have mountain flying if you can fly in the valleys below the peaks. So valleys more than 1000' deep.

One thing to know how to do in mountains is fly windward side ridge lift safely. You fly ridge lift at 90 degrees to the valley, paralleling the ridge and somewhat towards it. This is so if you lose the ridge lift and get a downdraft, you only have a 90 degree turn to the valley below you and you can can get down and out of it.
 
I've taken the mountain flying course out of Ft. Collins, CO. and flown the high peaks. I also spend time flying in and around eastern ranges: Blue Ridge to the Adirondacks, the New England ranges. While Lowland Mtns. dont present the same degree of altitude and peformance issues as do the western ranges, the weather phenomena, seasonality, wind issues and poor emergency landing choices make them a challenge nonetheless.
 
A tailgate (Copy).jpg I would figure that when TPA is over 8000'msl it's mountian flying, even though the hills are still way higher than that.
Here I am at 3000msl. Is that mountian flying?
 
NealRomeoGolf said:
. . . the Adirondacks would be some of the tamest mountains the US has to offer (at least as far as peak size).
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The Wichitas/Ouachitas (or any other OK "mountain range") likely lay claim to the tamest, lol.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
bluerooster said:
View attachment 51724
Here I am at 3000msl. Is that mountian flying?
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I believe the answer is yes to your question, who can figure out all the Lat/Longs in that FAA doc? At my old job we had a map of Arizona with designated mountain areas. I know Tucson was included (2600') but Phoenix and west to Yuma was not, except for a small peak out west.
 
coloradobluesky said:
I'd say you have mountain flying if you can fly in the valleys below the peaks. So valleys more than 1000' deep.
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Some say "I flew mountains" when they were >5000' above the peaks, yukyuk. (Not really mountain flying unless you deal with the hazards of it.)
I like your comment about using ridge lift. Every time I come out of Angel Fire NM (kaxx), there is a westerly blowing across that beautiful but hazardous valley. Rarely is lift great at 8000' msl; so its a slow climb, point at the west side of the east ridge and
get the free elevator ride!
 
Hmm. Around here we leave the flats and fly TO the mountains. They aren't something you pass through, they're the destination.
 
Many good comments about definitions for mountain flying. Certainly planning a flight to avoid terrain can be as appropriate as planning a flight to avoid weather.

The mountains in the east might be lower elevation than the mountains we have in the west. When one finds a rotor it really doesn't matter if you are east or west. One can argue that stronger rotors are found with terrain at higher elevations. It really doesn't matter to me, I'd be looking out anytime there are tall hills/mountains.

Perhaps the thing that folks haven't mentioned is one way runways and/terrain influence on the traffic pattern. Terminal area operations with terrain concerns puts one in the realm of mountain flying. High density altitude ops at the same time just add to the challenges.
 
NordicDave said:
It's a series. I think this is the first link:


Seriously good video. These are the same guys March 2017 AOPA Pilot Magazine on Mountain flying (page 52).

-NordicDave
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Thanks, I watched the whole series on mountain flying, very interesting.
My biggest takeaway, sort of an epiphany, was the instructor talking about winds in mountainous terrain thinking of "water in a river. Rock in the river, water goes up, over where it speeds up, and then down again and there are eddies further downstream", and "or water going between two rocks, speeding up".

Importance of flight plans, also the tip that if you expect it to be a two hour flight, file for four so you don't have the pressure of having to make it as well as adjusting flight plan when conditions or just preference makes you reroute, calling and changing the plan. Very good info when the Radio controller said he couldn't fill in the details of the passes they planned on taking, when they asked him to just add it in the remarks, since search and rescue read the remarks.

He also pointed out th geo foreflight advantages, and it got me to wondering. I'm a low time student, and have never used personal electronics (phone, tablet) up in the air. HOW does this work? I assume it it using GSM technology? So it is contacting cell phone towers ? So line of sight? But in mountains and wilderness, what about coverage?

In the video, it seemed like it was working just fine the whole time, but do they often go dark, or hang?
 
There is no such thing as "mountain flying".
I've seen people who fly into mountains, and I've seen people fly over mountains, but I've never seen anyone fly a mountain.

All hills bump. Big hills bump bigger. The time of year will affect the frequency and severity of the bumps.
The trick is to always have a plane that can climb faster than the mountain can grow, and fly faster than the bump can push or pull.
In NYS you rarely need to be more than 1,000 feet higher than the hill. Except in early spring when the wind is blowing hard and the hills are losing their snow.
As always, vertical development of those puffy white things voids all warranties.
 
For the guys who think mountain flying is just about density altitude, I've encountered mountain waves at barely over 2000 MSL. Ever climbed in a 172 at Vno? I've also encountered mountain wakes below 1000 MSL. I've also had to lean for takeoff at 300 MSL 'cause it was hot as hell.

I think the only sensible definition is, it's mountain flying if you need to pay attention to terrain driven winds to avoid aluminum rain. That's certainly true in valleys, and it's likely to be true at higher density altitude due to lower aircraft performance.
 
I have flown those Adirondacks a few times- most times in a Arrow. And all without any specific mountain training :eek: Not sometime I would do if flying into CO for the first time but around here its pretty benign.

Honestly, It's pretty routine in that area. Just be sure if flying IFR you follow standard DPs to not run into any rocks.

En route, as @Shepherd says, just give yourself plenty of altitude. IFR routes are at about 9-10,000 which will work fine for you even without O2. Respect and understand what mountain waves can do and be prepared to change plans if needed.

Also, if you by-pass the mountains you will miss out on Lake Placid, which is an awesome little airport in a really cool little town- with plenty to do for either a lunch stop or a night. The airports in a valley and if the winds are too bad just land at SLK and rent a car to get to town- bout 15 minute drive.
 
Last thing, if I remember right you are coming out to the Boston area for some geeky history stuff. As a fellow history nerd, I have heard that Ticonderoga airport (south of Plattsburg) is a short cab ride away from the historic fort.
 
Wind isn't everything. Mountain flying requires strategy. You need to know exactly where you are and where you're going. Plan for the unexpected, like weather in a pass since mountains often divide areas from weather systems. Fly on the side of a valley to allow maximum view around the next turn. Slow the plane. Be prepared to do a max performance 180* escape turn if the pass is closed. Avoid turning into box canyons but be prepared for when you do, because it happens. Ease into notch passes knowing the wind may be coming through it like a cannon, because it does. If one is unsuitable make that turn around, probably a very uncomfortable one, and find a different way. Be prepared to spiral up to gain altitude instead of trying to out-climb rising terrain. Winds and turbulence are not the whole story. Mountain flight training will spend a bunch of time on strategy, navigation, and max performance 180* turns in tight spaces. The rule about crossing ridges at 45* is elementary. Navigation is easier with modern GPS. High performance turn-arounds in small spaces and stressful conditions still requires training.
 
neilw2 said:
Last thing, if I remember right you are coming out to the Boston area for some geeky history stuff. As a fellow history nerd, I have heard that Ticonderoga airport (south of Plattsburg) is a short cab ride away from the historic fort.
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Ft. Ticonderoga is pretty freaking cool.
 
Stewartb said:
Wind isn't everything. Mountain flying requires strategy. You need to know exactly where you are and where you're going. Plan for the unexpected, like weather in a pass since mountains often divide areas from weather systems. Fly on the side of a valley to allow maximum view around the next turn. Slow the plane. Be prepared to do a max performance 180* escape turn if the pass is closed. Avoid turning into box canyons but be prepared for when you do, because it happens. Ease into notch passes knowing the wind may be coming through it like a cannon, because it does. If one is unsuitable make that turn around, probably a very uncomfortable one, and find a different way. Be prepared to spiral up to gain altitude instead of trying to out-climb rising terrain. Winds and turbulence are not the whole story. Mountain flight training will spend a bunch of time on strategy, navigation, and max performance 180* turns in tight spaces. The rule about crossing ridges at 45* is elementary. Navigation is easier with modern GPS. High performance turn-arounds in small spaces and stressful conditions still requires training.
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Yea, I'm sure there are plenty of areas in the US that have those type of problems. However, in the Adirondacks it is easier to just fly over them. You shouldn't need to by flying down passes, etc. If I ever fly out West I would have to get some serious mountain training before flying in those areas. I'm just saying I wouldn't say the same is required back East.
 
ejensen said:
And remember he killed himself doing it. Mistakes extract a big toll in this country
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He did, and there's still a lot of questions surrounding that to this day, which will probably remain forever unanswered.

The solo fatal crash that got him, and the storyline, never has made any real sense to anyone who knew him. Too much speculation and detail I won't go into here, but there may have been something medical going on.

Nevertheless, the books and his knowledge thankfully didn't die with him, and the material is still an excellent reference. My copy of Mountain Flying was signed at the law firm he worked at as a paralegal in DEN long before he moved north, and he always had the heart to teach. I don't think I was even 20 when I met him.

And I just realized after all these years that I've always said I didn't yet know anyone personally who's been in a fatal, and only acquaintances, but somehow Sparky never made that mental list. So my accounting of that has been wrong now for quite some time. Meh. That's a bummer for a Monday.
 
denverpilot said:
He did, and there's still a lot of questions surrounding that to this day, which will probably remain forever unanswered.

The solo fatal crash that got him, and the storyline, never has made any real sense to anyone who knew him. Too much speculation and detail I won't go into here, but there may have been something medical going on.

Nevertheless, the books and his knowledge thankfully didn't die with him, and the material is still an excellent reference. My copy of Mountain Flying was signed at the law firm he worked at as a paralegal in DEN long before he moved north, and he always had the heart to teach. I don't think I was even 20 when I met him.

And I just realized after all these years that I've always said I didn't yet know anyone personally who's been in a fatal, and only acquaintances, but somehow Sparky never made that mental list. So my accounting of that has been wrong now for quite some time. Meh. That's a bummer for a Monday.
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It's a very useful book. Another author Fletcher Anderson wrote 'Flying the Mountains: A Training Manual for Flying Single-Engine Aircraft'. He died doing it also.
 
ejensen said:
It's a very useful book. Another author Fletcher Anderson wrote 'Flying the Mountains: A Training Manual for Flying Single-Engine Aircraft'. He died doing it also.
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I think that one is here somewhere too, but I'll have to dig.

If there's one architecture "feature" of our old house that I miss, it was a giant built in bookshelf system/library area we had in the basement there. Not enough room or shelving to display (or even keep) all the books out here at "Prairie House", but that's okay, most of them are digital these days...

There's some excellent pubs from the 80s and early 90s that were put out by the DEN FSDO but they're all long out of print. A different era when individual FSDOs wrote helpful stuff about flying. Maybe I should digitize some of those.
 
Aside from density altitude causing problems on takeoff and climb in the mountains the mountain wave and rotor winds are how pilots get killed. Pilots need to understand the physics of mountain wave and rotors and where they will be found. Downdraft problems from these winds can't be over stated. It will cause under or marginally powered aircraft and overloaded aircraft to be driven into the ground with no chance to recover.
 
neilw2 said:
Last thing, if I remember right you are coming out to the Boston area for some geeky history stuff. As a fellow history nerd, I have heard that Ticonderoga airport (south of Plattsburg) is a short cab ride away from the historic fort.
Click to expand...

Nice of you to remember my purpose for the trip. Right now looks like overnighting in Plattsburgh after the first day of flying and then heading to Boston (Taunton) the next day. Will look into the Ticonderoga piece.

Thanks to all of you for the advice and information.
 
NealRomeoGolf said:
Nice of you to remember my purpose for the trip. Right now looks like overnighting in Plattsburgh after the first day of flying and then heading to Boston (Taunton) the next day. Will look into the Ticonderoga piece.

Thanks to all of you for the advice and information.
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No problem. If it gets closer and you have any other questions about flying in the area or the local area itself, let me know! Have fun.
 
NordicDave said:
It's a series. I think this is the first link:


Seriously good video. These are the same guys March 2017 AOPA Pilot Magazine on Mountain flying (page 52).

-NordicDave
Click to expand...

Those are pretty cool videos. Not comprehensive, of course, but sure whets my appetite for mountain flying. Actually, that looks like a pretty fun course. A weekend of flying and camping in the mountains sure looks like a lot more fun than any other training I've ever done!
 
Frogs97 said:
Those are pretty cool videos. Not comprehensive, of course, but sure whets my appetite for mountain flying. Actually, that looks like a pretty fun course. A weekend of flying and camping in the mountains sure looks like a lot more fun than any other training I've ever done!
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Just kidding, haha.
 
LongRoadBob said:
He also pointed out th geo foreflight advantages, and it got me to wondering. I'm a low time student, and have never used personal electronics (phone, tablet) up in the air. HOW does this work? I assume it it using GSM technology? So it is contacting cell phone towers ? So line of sight? But in mountains and wilderness, what about coverage?

In the video, it seemed like it was working just fine the whole time, but do they often go dark, or hang?
Click to expand...

No GSM/Cell technology involved. They were connected to Stratus 2 for use of ForeFlight AHRS, but that was mostly for our benefit. G1000 was giving better and more useful info to the pilot. What he was referencing was just GPS location(via Stratus 2 as well, but could be anything).
 
ejensen said:
And remember he killed himself doing it. Mistakes extract a big toll in this country
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Eric is right. That is a very sobering fact. If a guy that experienced in mountain flying can kill himself, anyone can. Wind, and weather will be your driving factors as others have said, and a mountain flying course, and some flight time with an experienced mountain flying pilot is a good thing. There is almost nothing worse than being at best rate of climb, and sinking like a rock (and seeing the rocks coming up at you) in the mountains due to a downdraft. Well, maybe getting stuck in a T-storm.......
 
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