More from the TSA

Jimmy cooper said:
Not to mention the vast number of civilians we've killed, men women and children, in our quest to bring them "democracy. " Iran, Vietnam , Iraq, on and on.
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Indeed

Quote from a favorite movie of mine.

"People don't like to be meddled with. We tell them what to do, what to think. Don't run, don't walk. We're in their homes and in their heads and we haven't the right. We're meddlesome"
 
mscard88 said:
TSA does have armed agents. One of pilots who retired years ago got hired on as one. I don't know where they hang out on airports though. If I did I have to kill you I suppose if I slipped up and told you.
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But not at the checkpoints. There is supposed to be an armed police officer nearby.
 
wsuffa said:
But not at the checkpoints. There is supposed to be an armed police officer nearby.
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How do you know where they are? They wear 'civilian' clothes from what I understand.
 
I was in MN on business the week before Thanksgiving shortly after the Paris attacks, my flight back to NH leaves MN at 7am on the Friday before Thanksgiving. Security line is extra long at 5:00 am yet when we get to the xray machines are told keep your shoes on, leave laptops in bags and keep your belt on???? WTF you would thing that if security was going to be tight that would have been the time. It's all theater.
 
NHWannabe said:
I was in MN on business the week before Thanksgiving shortly after the Paris attacks, my flight back to NH leaves MN at 7am on the Friday before Thanksgiving. Security line is extra long at 5:00 am yet when we get to the xray machines are told keep your shoes on, leave laptops in bags and keep your belt on???? WTF you would thing that if security was going to be tight that would have been the time. It's all theater.
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Did you get PreCheck? If so, that's pretty much standard.

PreCheck (either stand alone or with Global Entry) permits you to go through an expedited checkpoint that's more like it used to be. You do have to apply for it & get a trusted traveler number.

At certain times, the TSA will use something they call "managed inclusion" where random passengers from the regular line are directed through the PreCheck screening to speed things up. They supposedly cut back on it (to push people to apply for PreCheck), but have been using it at some airports lately, especially where there are bomb-sniffing dogs and other measures to help clear people. If you don't have Pre, that's likely what you got.
 
Is the TSA an intolerable violation of our basic rights and an example of tyranny? Not really, one could argue it's one of many tiny steps in that direction but that's not what upsets me about it. Besides the general inconvenience that is.

I think it's a perfect example of the wrong-headed approach to just about everything we see from our government and society these days, especially with terrorism. The very idea of securing a space that by design must be accessed by the general public is ridiculous. You can't. Every measure you come up with will become known and the bad guys have all day long to think up ways around it. They will get around it... and that's even assuming you don't have a 95% failure rate at stopping what you're supposed to.

Yes, you need security but you need security that makes sense. Skilled security trained to find who they're looking for, not high school drop-outs to screen grandma. The first people to confront attackers will most likely not be security though. They'll be normal everyday people. That's where stopping terrorism needed to start, you have to train people how to respond. See a suspicious person? Engage them in conversation and see what you learn. Put out PSA videos on how to disarm an attacker, offer free martial arts training to every airport employee. Get the public involved in their own protection.

You can't put a cop in every single possible place a terrorist might attack. I'm surprised it took this long but the trend is obviously moving away from airports and towards any public venue. We need a public ready to fight back and not just be sheep for the slaughter. I know not everyone is up that, but a couple of motivated thinking individuals on their feet on the scene beats an entire Swat team 15 minutes away.

All government can do for you is send law enforcement after the fact... and legislate after the fact. We have to be ready to handle things during the fact. If you want an example of that in action, remember flight 93.
 
wsuffa said:
Did you get PreCheck? If so, that's pretty much standard.

PreCheck (either stand alone or with Global Entry) permits you to go through an expedited checkpoint that's more like it used to be. You do have to apply for it & get a trusted traveler number.

At certain times, the TSA will use something they call "managed inclusion" where random passengers from the regular line are directed through the PreCheck screening to speed things up. They supposedly cut back on it (to push people to apply for PreCheck), but have been using it at some airports lately, especially where there are bomb-sniffing dogs and other measures to help clear people. If you don't have Pre, that's likely what you got.
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No TSA Pre-check and everyone on the line received the same treatment.
 
wsuffa said:
Did you get PreCheck? If so, that's pretty much standard.

PreCheck (either stand alone or with Global Entry) permits you to go through an expedited checkpoint that's more like it used to be. You do have to apply for it & get a trusted traveler number.

At certain times, the TSA will use something they call "managed inclusion" where random passengers from the regular line are directed through the PreCheck screening to speed things up. They supposedly cut back on it (to push people to apply for PreCheck), but have been using it at some airports lately, especially where there are bomb-sniffing dogs and other measures to help clear people. If you don't have Pre, that's likely what you got.
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My wife got pre-check in Newark and 3 of the people in front of her had things that by the regs they weren't supposed to have and backed up the pre check line. i.e beverages and hand lotion. :-/
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Not to mention the vast number of civilians we've killed, men women and children, in our quest to bring them "democracy. " Iran, Vietnam , Iraq, on and on.
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Was that Kool-Aid grape, or strawberry?
 
Sundancer said:
Was that Kool-Aid grape, or strawberry?
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I'd wager "factual" flavor?

Heck, ISIS uses video of our collateral damage with great success in their recruitment marketing videos.
 
mscard88 said:
TSA does have armed agents. One of pilots who retired years ago got hired on as one. I don't know where they hang out on airports though. If I did I have to kill you I suppose if I slipped up and told you.
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Air Marshals belong to TSA and are armed. They, obviously, spend time at airports, but don't work there.
 
Shepherd said:
One of the absolute truisms from my days in the military.
"If someone wants to kill you badly enough, there is no way to stop them. Unless you kill them first."
This is why LRPS were so successful and so feared in Vietnam.
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I read a couple books on the LRPS years ago, some of the best books I have ever read. They were a fascinating bunch with balls of solid brass. If anyone wants a good read, they are it.
 
mscard88 said:
TSA does have armed agents. One of pilots who retired years ago got hired on as one. I don't know where they hang out on airports though. If I did I have to kill you I suppose if I slipped up and told you.
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how old was he when they hired him!!?? Retired as a pilot then started with them?
 
mscard88 said:
One of the reasons I'm voting for Trump. I don't know if he can do anything about it but the thought of the other candidate satisfied with the status quo is unsatisfactory. Among other things.
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There are one or two positions Trump has taken that I agree with, but there are just too many deal-killers. The biggest is that I don't think he can be trusted with the power of the presidency.
 
Palmpilot said:
There are one or two positions Trump has taken that I agree with, but there are just too many deal-killers. The biggest is that I don't think he can be trusted with the power of the presidency.
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Indeed.

Still beats door number 2 though.
 
James331 said:
I'd wager "factual" flavor?

Heck, ISIS uses video of our collateral damage with great success in their recruitment marketing videos.
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Yep, those probably swing the tide. . .otherwise, they'd all stay home and knit us sweaters. . .
 
Kritchlow said:
Okay... Not practical to go to Vegas for the weekend from Miami.
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Wait... don't you own an Eclipse? (Or am I thinking of somebody else with a similar avatar?)
 
Sundancer said:
Yep, those probably swing the tide. . .otherwise, they'd all stay home and knit us sweaters. . .
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How many Americans joined up after Pearl Harbor, after 9/11?

Images of these events and invoking their memory has been used by the US to start wars, build internment camps, sign away our rights, etc.

Humans are humans, shy of psychopaths folks need a reason to travel across the globe and kill people, evil powerful men seeking more money and power have always found good reasons to give their people for just that, and other soldiers working for equally evil men have always given the other side a reason.

It's all the same chit, just a diffrent flavor
 
SkyDog58 said:
There is always Gary Johnson and the Libertarians. He is by far the best choice this year.
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Oh, I know, I'm a libertarian through and through, sadly the American people are not what they once were, and the libertarians don't have the $$ to wage a proper campaign, hence why Ron Paul always runs as an R.
 
James331 said:
Oh, I know, I'm a libertarian through and through, sadly the American people are not what they once were, and the libertarians don't have the $$ to wage a proper campaign, hence why Ron Paul always runs as an R.
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Yeah, but with the dissatisfaction that most Americans seem to have with the two top party choices this year, maybe this year the Libertarians can do better. Too many Libertarians and others do not vote for their candidate because they feel it will be a wasted vote.
 
One thing I have observed about TSA screeners is that the ones working at smaller airports in more rural areas tend to be a lot more professional than the ones at major airports in big cities. They're not only more polite and courteous, but also more thorough and effective.

I suppose the sheer volume at big airports contributes to the stress level and brings out the worst in screeners. But I also wonder if the pay scale has something to do with the difference. In areas where the cost of living is low and jobs are scarce, a TSA job compares favorably with other available jobs and provides a livable income. In big urban areas, not so much. The local cost-of-living adjustments that are built into the pay scale just don't cut it in places like New York City, where one-bedroom apartments can cost $2K+ a month, making the job of TSA screener just another low-paying, quasi law-enforcement job that attracts people who couldn't make the cut for real police work.

I've also observed that the biggest problems with the screening process are not the procedures themselves, most of which actually have some sort of bases in the sorts of methods that terrorists are known to have used to try to take down airplanes. The problem is the staff. All too often they not only seem incapable of independent thought; but they also tend to interpret any perceived lack of cooperation on the parts of passengers (for example, the confusion of the brain tumor patient in the previously-linked article) as attacks against their own authority, to which they respond with aggression, or even violence.

In areas where a TSA job provides a reasonably decent wage compared to other jobs, it stands to reason that the job will attract a higher caliber of applicants. Conversely, in areas where the salary puts TSA screeners at or near the poverty level, it stands to reason that the job attracts control freaks with borderline sociopathic tendencies, who couldn't make the cut for real police work, but who desperately crave a job that allows them to wear a badge and order other people around.

So maybe the solution is to increase both the pay and the qualifications for a TSA job. Require a Bachelor's degree (most of which are useless in and of themselves, but which do help screen out the profoundly dullest of the dull), and make the pay scale commensurate with other federal law enforcement jobs that require a degree.

Another possibility would be to re-assign responsibility for airport security to the Coast Guard. Despite the fact that the overwhelming majority of Coast Guard personnel who conduct boardings and other maritime security and law-enforcement work are individuals in their teens and twenties, those operations are conducted with an overall level of professionalism that puts TSA at most major airports I've flown out of to shame.

One way or the other, something needs to be done to improve the overall caliber of the people performing this work. Although we may dislike it, I think that most of us grudgingly admit that it's become necessary in today's world. We need people doing that job whose qualifications consist of something more than not having been able to land jobs as real cops.

Rich
 
James331 said:
How many Americans joined up after Pearl Harbor, after 9/11?

Images of these events and invoking their memory has been used by the US to start wars, build internment camps, sign away our rights, etc.

Humans are humans, shy of psychopaths folks need a reason to travel across the globe and kill people, evil powerful men seeking more money and power have always found good reasons to give their people for just that, and other soldiers working for equally evil men have always given the other side a reason.

It's all the same chit, just a diffrent flavor
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You're comparing fish and bicycles. . .ISIL recruits are by and large there for the paycheck. And the oppurtunity for loot and rape. They pull in some idealists, for sure. . .and even if there was no collateral damage, they'd say there was, or fabricate other "atrocities" to attract the ignorant, naive, or gullible.

If you have some hard evidence on the effectiveness of various ISIL recruting tactics, other than anecdotes from MSNBC or coastal city newspapers, share it with the Feds. Otherwise, you're just parroting noise from people with thier own agenda.
 
Sundancer said:
You're comparing fish and bicycles. . .ISIL recruits are by and large there for the paycheck. And the oppurtunity for loot and rape. They pull in some idealists, for sure. . .and even if there was no collateral damage, they'd say there was, or fabricate other "atrocities" to attract the ignorant, naive, or gullible.

If you have some hard evidence on the effectiveness of various ISIL recruting tactics, other than anecdotes from MSNBC or coastal city newspapers, share it with the Feds. Otherwise, you're just parroting noise from people with thier own agenda.
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Lol, bub you're preaching to the wrong guy on that, I don't even consider NY times, Huff, WA, news, so that ain't it.

Hard evidence, well seems every one of those isis videos starts off with the same thing, the aftermath of one of our attacks, guessing they keep with the same theme for a reason.

It's the same crap with any armed faction, be it isis, or say our USMC.

Recruitment is recruitment when it comes to amasing a armed group to follow orders.


Also, MANY American soldiers are there first and foremost for a paycheck too, go to a MEPS center, you'll get tons of, "wanted to get out of my home town, no good jobs" "shooting stuff" "they'll pay for college" "driving a tank" etc, and the same minority of "true believers".
As far as ideals and false damage, we do the same crap, be it WMDs in Iraq, scare tactics, or ignoring warnings, war is war is its always for the same reason, money and power.

Same chit diffrent toilet.


Personally I wish all these power hungry war mongers would just go at it man to man, instead of bringing tons of other people into their "causes" who otherwise wouldn't give two craps about the "enemy"
 
James, today kids of the " Me" generation where participation was excellence, need incentive for "me" to serve. The DoD has to evolve with this or they won't get their recruits. I have been there, done that, got the T shirt. Trying to get them on patriotism alone is almost a nonstarter.
 
wsuffa said:
Another fine performance by the boys in blue....

https://www.rt.com/usa/349223-tsa-beat-woman-tumor/
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From the article she got screened out to more scrutiny and then bolted. They chased and tackled her. WTH do you think they are gonna do? Let you go? What am I missing here? If I did that at a security checkpoint, they'd tackle my ass too, and I'd expect it's coming. In a foreign country, they'd effing choot me!

Sucks she got ruffed up, but damn, don't bolt from security. She's gonna sue? For what? Deep pockets is what she sees. What I see is no personal responsibility. She caused the whole mess.
 
Unit74 said:
James, today kids of the " Me" generation where participation was excellence, need incentive for "me" to serve. The DoD has to evolve with this or they won't get their recruits. I have been there, done that, got the T shirt. Trying to get them on patriotism alone is almost a nonstarter.
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I know lots of younger folks who happily volunteer in their communities as firefighters and EMS, myself included.

We ain't doing it for a flag or government "leaders", we do it for our neighbors.

Sometime true patriotism is telling your government to f' off.
 
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Unit74 said:
From the article she got screened out to more scrutiny and then bolted. They chased and tackled her. WTH do you think they are gonna do? Let you go? What am I missing here? If I did that at a security checkpoint, they'd tackle my ass too, and I'd expect it's coming. In a foreign country, they'd effing choot me!

Sucks she got ruffed up, but damn, don't bolt from security. She's gonna sue? For what? Deep pockets is what she sees. What I see is no personal responsibility. She caused the whole mess.
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When the judge who dismisses the charges suggests to her mother that she get a lawyer to do just that, I suspect she's got a pretty good case.
 
Unit74 said:
From the article she got screened out to more scrutiny and then bolted. They chased and tackled her. WTH do you think they are gonna do? Let you go? What am I missing here? If I did that at a security checkpoint, they'd tackle my ass too, and I'd expect it's coming. In a foreign country, they'd effing choot me!

Sucks she got ruffed up, but damn, don't bolt from security. She's gonna sue? For what? Deep pockets is what she sees. What I see is no personal responsibility. She caused the whole mess.
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Except that her family had explained her situation to the TSA agents. If they're such automatons that they can't figure out an alternative to forcibly tackling a woman who has a freshly-dug hole in her brain, then please see my previous post.

Rich
 
Chip Sylverne said:
When the judge who dismisses the charges suggests to her mother that she get a lawyer to do just that, I suspect she's got a pretty good case.
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Do you have court transcripts for that? I'd love to read it. I suspect you don't, but who knows.
 
RJ. I'm sure she was professing that after miss candonowrong was already on the floor getting cuffed up. That bell was already rung at that point.

I have empathy for the girl. I really do. But don't blame the PD/TSA when she got stupid on them. If she had a gun on her, would it change the headlines! You bet. They have to react to every situation in a manner that ensures no threats make it through.

I told TSA once their body scanner was a bunch of BS. I ended up getting a full pat down. I just say yes no and that's about it now. Keep calm, move like cattle through the checkpoint and get on your damn cattle car. That's all you need to do. Anything else and you will get all of their attention.
 
James331 said:
Humans are humans, shy of psychopaths folks need a reason to travel across the globe and kill people, evil powerful men seeking more money and power have always found good reasons to give their people for just that, and other soldiers working for equally evil men have always given the other side a reason.
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So FDR was as evil as Hitler?
 
Mason said:
So FDR was as evil as Hitler?
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Some wars, VERY few, need to be fought, but most wars nowadays are just for profit, I don't care what flag you drape behind your speeches.
 
James331 said:
Lol, bub you're preaching to the wrong guy on that, I don't even consider NY times, Huff, WA, news, so that ain't it.

Hard evidence, well seems every one of those isis videos starts off with the same thing, the aftermath of one of our attacks, guessing they keep with the same theme for a reason.

It's the same crap with any armed faction, be it isis, or say our USMC.

Recruitment is recruitment when it comes to amasing a armed group to follow orders.


Also, MANY American soldiers are there first and foremost for a paycheck too, go to a MEPS center, you'll get tons of, "wanted to get out of my home town, no good jobs" "shooting stuff" "they'll pay for college" "driving a tank" etc, and the same minority of "true believers".
As far as ideals and false damage, we do the same crap, be it WMDs in Iraq, scare tactics, or ignoring warnings, war is war is its always for the same reason, money and power.

Same chit diffrent toilet.


Personally I wish all these power hungry war mongers would just go at it man to man, instead of bringing tons of other people into their "causes" who otherwise wouldn't give two craps about the "enemy"
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I don't think "hard evidence", "guessing", and "well it seems" go together. Nor does "MANY. . ."

I could tell you "MANY" recruits at MEPS are also there for loftier reasons, and/or multiple reasons. I do have a lot of times at MEPS, DMDC. But you and I are gonna talk past each other, to the annoyance and boredom of others. . .
 
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