MOA details?

[kujo806]

Maybe this is a stupid question, but where would I find details about MOA controlling agencies and altitudes? Some MOAs have notes on the chart, but some do not. I am interested in flying to some airports within MOAs, and would like to know who to contact for activity updates, and if the MOA starts at a certain altitude.

 

[frfly172]

You can always ask ATC as you go. They can tell you if the area is Hot.

 

[Fearless Tower]

Maybe this is a stupid question, but where would I find details about MOA controlling agencies and altitudes? Some MOAs have notes on the chart, but some do not. I am interested in flying to some airports within MOAs, and would like to know who to contact for activity updates, and if the MOA starts at a certain altitude.

All MOAs on a sectional should be listed in the notes. What ones are you not seeing on the chart?

 

[write-stuff]

You can always call FSS at 1-800-WX-BRIEF and ask those guys.

 

[kujo806]

All MOAs on a sectional should be listed in the notes. What ones are you not seeing on the chart?

I see it now. I was looking at Skyvector and had to pull up the specific chart. I was looking at the Crypt MOAs in western Iowa. The sectional notes show *TO and including* 8000ft. Is that ground to 8000ft or 8000ft and above? I would plan to be on flight following, but it would be nice to have the details when planning too. Thanks.

 

[kujo806]

Nevermind. I see the note. Altitude indicates floor of the MOA.

 

[frfly172]

Don't worry ,just wander in when it's VFR ,you never know what interesting planes you might see up close.

 

[mtuomi]

Even after getting a briefing I would still confirm with ATC before entering any MOA let alone a restricted area. I was once on flight following, and was told to enter a R-area because it was cold, and then 5 minutes later getting vectored out because it suddenly became hot...

 

[SportPilotCO]

I know some people don't like to do it but I get flight following every time I go up unless I am staying in the pattern. This is a great way of knowing whether folks in a MOA or other air space are near you. It is great to know a MOA is hot, but I would rather know that it is hot and the planes are actually near me. Another suggestion if you use Foreflight it to select the MOA on their and get the info about the area by just touching it on the chart and selecting All for the type on the bottom of the airspace. I know not everyone uses Foreflight but if you do and didn't know that one, it works great.

Carl

 

[kenjr]

agreed - get FF and they'll tell you. I just did a long XC for a weekend trip and flew over several on my way up and down...in fact, flew right over the top of Dyess AFB (B-1's are there...) and one of their MOA's. ATC will tell you if the zone is hot.

 

[MAKG1]

agreed - get FF and they'll tell you. I just did a long XC for a weekend trip and flew over several on my way up and down...in fact, flew right over the top of Dyess AFB (B-1's are there...) and one of their MOA's. ATC will tell you if the zone is hot.

Note that even if it's hot, you're not prohibited from going in. But it may not be a good idea, and it might be disruptive to the activities going on.

It's restricted airspace that you can't go in when it's hot (more correctly, without permission from the controlling agency, but you're not likely to get it if it's hot).

 

[murphey]

You can always ask ATC as you go. They can tell you if the area is Hot.

Not always. Out here in Colorado ATC doesn't always know, and some don't even know the freq to contact. The MOA, R, etc times & freqs are on the legend page of the VFR sectional.

 

[Shepherd]

Don't sweat it. There isn't a jet currently in the USAF inventory that you can't turn inside to get on it's tail. Also, they will all fall out of the sky trying to slow down to your speed.

 

[JasonM]

Very simple with ForeFlight. Just click on them and select All.

 

[tehmightypirate]

Note that even if it's hot, you're not prohibited from going in. But it may not be a good idea, and it might be disruptive to the activities going on.

It's restricted airspace that you can't go in when it's hot (more correctly, without permission from the controlling agency, but you're not likely to get it if it's hot).

Just keep in mind that if ATC tells you not to go in then you have to abide by their instructions. One could argue that you could then request to leave flight following and go it VFR but in my mind the previous instruction still applies and must be followed (i.e. stay out of the MOA).

 

[Velocity173]

Just keep in mind that if ATC tells you not to go in then you have to abide by their instructions. One could argue that you could then request to leave flight following and go it VFR but in my mind the previous instruction still applies and must be followed (i.e. stay out of the MOA).

Negative. If your VFR, ATC can't restrict from going into a MOA. They might not want the liability of providing FF and terminate you but you can still enter.

The restriction is for IFR only. That's the whole point of the definition of a MOA. It's to separate non participating IFR aircraft from the military activity in the MOA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Operations_Area

 

[MAKG1]

14 CFR 91.123(b) doesn't apply VFR? That's a new one on me...

 

[Velocity173]

14 CFR 91.123(b) doesn't apply VFR? That's a new one on me...

91.123 doesn't apply because it's outside the authority of ATC in this case. See attached link above. MOAs aren't restricted airspace. They fall under nonregulatory airspace in which ATC has very little control over.

We've been over this before with the Chief Counsel letter on controller authority in controlled airspace. While the letter does require VFR pilots to comply with ATC instructions in controlled airpace, in this case they would be overstepping their bounds by keeping an aircraft out. Not to mention a pilot has the right to cancel FF and ignore the instruction anyway.

 

[MAKG1]

If you cancel flight following, you still have the instruction, even if it isn't "valid." 91.123(b) does not qualify the type of instruction as to whether ATC overstepped its bounds or not. It says that you SHALL comply in any controlled airspace. Only emergencies are excepted.

Wikipedia is an authoritative source for absolutely nothing.

Class C also does not require a clearance, but if ATC tells you to remain clear, you remain clear or defend your certificate.

Playing airborne lawyer is an exceedingly bad idea, even if you're "right."

 

[MarkZ]

There was a thread all about this. For IFR aircraft, ATC separates by a 3/1000 minima. VFR aircraft, no regulation/separation.


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[Palmpilot]

Is ATC instructing VFR aircraft to stay out of MOAs somewhere? (Seems like a moot argument otherwise.)

 

[MarkZ]

Nope. We offer the suggestion, and suggest a heading and/or an altitude to avoid.


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[MAKG1]

Is ATC instructing VFR aircraft to stay out of MOAs somewhere? (Seems like a moot argument otherwise.)

Not MOAs, but I'm sure you've had the experience of ATC telling you to get out of the SJC extended centerline north of Hollister, well inside Class E.

I almost always get a descent instruction when I approach that after clearing the mountains comfortably. In Class E.

 

[Velocity173]

If you cancel flight following, you still have the instruction, even if it isn't "valid." 91.123(b) does not qualify the type of instruction as to whether ATC overstepped its bounds or not. It says that you SHALL comply in any controlled airspace. Only emergencies are excepted.

Wikipedia is an authoritative source for absolutely nothing.

Class C also does not require a clearance, but if ATC tells you to remain clear, you remain clear or defend your certificate.

Playing airborne lawyer is an exceedingly bad idea, even if you're "right."

I don't always go by what Wiki says but when I do, it generally it mirrors the 7400.2J:

25−1−6. JOINT USE a. In effect, MOAs are always joint use in that VFR aircraft are not denied access, and IFR aircraft may be routed through the airspace, by agreement between controlling and using agencies, when approved separation can be provided from the MOA activity. b. Procedures for access to the airspace by nonparticipating IFR traffic must be specified in a letter of agreement between the controlling and using agencies.


Since I used to be a MOA controller I know a little about what goes on in them and the limits of my authority. MOAs are nonregulatory airspace. They are a cutaway inside the airspace that surrounds them. They even have their own weather mins for the participating aircraft. The procedures for handling them are contained in various LOAs and of course 7004.2J. Our guidance through the LOA and the 7400.2J was to allow VFR access and provide FF on a workload permitting basis.

 

[N801BH]

I don't always go by what Wiki says but when I do, it generally it mirrors the 7400.2J:

25−1−6. JOINT USE a. In effect, MOAs are always joint use in that VFR aircraft are not denied access, and IFR aircraft may be routed through the airspace, by agreement between controlling and using agencies, when approved separation can be provided from the MOA activity. b. Procedures for access to the airspace by nonparticipating IFR traffic must be specified in a letter of agreement between the controlling and using agencies.


Since I used to be a MOA controller I know a little about what goes on in them and the limits of my authority. MOAs are nonregulatory airspace. They are a cutaway inside the airspace that surrounds them. They even have their own weather mins for the participating aircraft. The procedures for handling them are contained in various LOAs and of course 7004.2J. Our guidance through the LOA and the 7400.2J was to allow VFR access and provide FF on a workload permitting basis.

Thanks for the insight McFly.....

Which begs the next question of..................

If it is "nonregulatory airspace", can a VFR plane fly aerobatics, low level and other "FAA frowned upon" actions and not get in trouble???

 

[Velocity173]

Thanks for the insight McFly.....

Which begs the next question of..................

If it is "nonregulatory airspace", can a VFR plane fly aerobatics, low level and other "FAA frowned upon" actions and not get in trouble???

Not unless you're a participant. Those rules / procedures that apply in the MOA are only for participants only. A MOA essentially allows the "players" to do things that they normally wouldn't do otherwise. For instance ours allowed aerobatic flight, 100 ft hard deck, speeds in excess of 250 KTS but subsonic (except for one case ). Ours was restricted from ACM but outside that they had free reign of the area and believe me they exercised that right. They get that authority through waivers:

21−1−12. WAIVERS
The establishment of SUA does not, in itself, waive compliance with any part of the Code of Federal Regulations. DOD has been granted a number of waivers, exemptions, and authorizations to accomplish specific missions. Information about current waivers, exemptions, and authorizations granted for military operations may be obtained from FAA Headquarters, Airspace Regulations and ATC Procedures Group, or the Office of Rulemaking (ARM).


Look at a MOA like a VFR MTR. The altitudes, speeds, weather mins and SQK (4000) apply to the military users of that route. Doesn't mean a civilian can't fly the route but the restrictions or lack of restrictions apply to the military.

 

[NoHeat]

The OP's question brings up a good point. Wouldn't it be nice if there were a more convenient place to find information online for MOA altitudes and hours?

There are lots of great sites for telling you about airports where you can just type in an airport's name and immediately find all the technical info you need. But strangely there aren't any such sites for MOAs. At least, there are none that I've found.

So we're stuck with a routine that isn't obvious or quick: starting Skyvector, choosing a particular sectional instead of WorldVFR, zooming out, looking for the appropriate border that has MOA info, zooming in, and hunting through the image for the text you need.

 

[Palmpilot]

Not MOAs, but I'm sure you've had the experience of ATC telling you to get out of the SJC extended centerline north of Hollister, well inside Class E.

I almost always get a descent instruction when I approach that after clearing the mountains comfortably. In Class E.

I seldom use flight following. I avoid the SJC final approach course on my own initiative.

 

[Jim Logajan]

Another suggestion if you use Foreflight it to select the MOA on their and get the info about the area by just touching it on the chart and selecting All for the type on the bottom of the airspace.

WingX users just need to tap most anywhere in the depicted SU airspace and a pop-up box is immediately displayed showing hours active, altitude limits, and ATC contact frequencies.

 

[Witmo]

If you cancel flight following, you still have the instruction, even if it isn't "valid." 91.123(b) does not qualify the type of instruction as to whether ATC overstepped its bounds or not. It says that you SHALL comply in any controlled airspace. Only emergencies are excepted.

Wikipedia is an authoritative source for absolutely nothing.

Class C also does not require a clearance, but if ATC tells you to remain clear, you remain clear or defend your certificate.

Playing airborne lawyer is an exceedingly bad idea, even if you're "right."

You must obey an ATC instruction in an "area in which air traffic control is exercised." ATC does not exercise control over VFR traffic in Class E Airspace so they "suggest" headings or altitudes. You may follow their suggestions or not.

 

[dscott3984]

I fly out of and around a MOA every time I take off. A lot of helicopter activity in mine and if they are busy during recovery I'll call in for flight following but at any other time it's not necessary. Most people are confusing MOAs with restricted areas. If they are extremely busy they may deny FF (happened a few times) but they have never request, asked me, or hinted around me leaving the airspace.
Just personal experience without reciting FARs or any other regs that may apply

 

[Velocity173]

You must obey an ATC instruction in an "area in which air traffic control is exercised." ATC does not exercise control over VFR traffic in Class E Airspace so they "suggest" headings or altitudes. You may follow their suggestions or not.

Unfortunately the Chief Counsel came out with this interpretation last year. Doesn't apply to the MOA question but it does apply to VFR in class E.

 

[MarkZ]

Correct, and it is always the VFR PIC's responsibility to maintain VFR.


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[Witmo]

Unfortunately the Chief Counsel came out with this interpretation last year. Doesn't apply to the MOA question but it does apply to VFR in class E.

Thanks for the reference, I stand corrected.

 

[Palmpilot]

Unfortunately the Chief Counsel came out with this interpretation last year. Doesn't apply to the MOA question but it does apply to VFR in class E.

And of course, the brain surgeons in the Chief Counsel's office have contradicted themselves somewhat, because fairly recently, they put out an interpretation that effectively said that you MUST disobey an ATC instruction that would cause you to enter class B without a clearance.

 

[N801BH]

And of course, the brain surgeons in the Chief Counsel's office have contradicted themselves somewhat, because fairly recently, they put out an interpretation that effectively said that you MUST disobey an ATC instruction that would cause you to enter class B without a clearance.

Oh....... The government and their wonderful rules at its finest...

 

[Shawn]

I'm sorry...I just don't get the mentality of asking for FF, which is VOLUNTARY and NOT obligated to be provided by ATC then taking the "F-U...I'm not complying attitude"!

I look at it as they are doing ME a favor by being another set of eyes and I always let them know I will adjust of needed to avoid a Southwest Jet running up my tail!...which HAS happened on the SJC arrival corridor none the less. If they tell me a heading, I assume it is either to keep me safe, or stay outta the IFR traffic...either way I am willing to comply with in exchange for their services.

Now, I know there are cases of ACT over stepping their bounds..but how often dose that really happen?

There is the "legal" use and interpretation of ATC on FF...then there is the smart way!

 

[N801BH]

I'm sorry...I just don't get the mentality of asking for FF, which is VOLUNTARY and NOT obligated to be provided by ATC then taking the "F-U...I'm not complying attitude"!

.......!

I look at it differently.... I pay their salaries from the Av Gas fuel tax I am FORCED to pay on every fill up...... I want my money's worth...

 

[MarkZ]

I have worked VFR pilots with an attitude, but most VFR pilots I've helped were appreciative of the service and abided by any suggestions I offered. It's uncommon to have a pilot on frequency request flight following and then "go it alone." Most controllers, when dealing with a pilot who goes against suggested headings or altitudes in Class E airspace, will work around that pilot. I usually kept the aircraft on frequency until I was sure the VFR couldn't get in the grill of my IFR traffic, then terminated advisories.


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[tehmightypirate]

Mark, what do you make of the following situation:

My father was doing practice approaches to a class E airport adjacent to a class C on one side and a MOA up to 3,000 MSL on another. We were VFR on flight following and I was handling comms. The approach we were practicing begins at 3,000 about 1/3 into the MOA.

The ATC exchange went something like this:

ATC: Cessna 123AB, how far are you going on your present heading.
Me: About X miles until we're on the approach for runway XX at XYZ.
ATC: Well, the MOA is active today. [Heavy emphasis that we should stay out of it without providing direct instruction.]
Me: We're going to be at 3,000 the whole time for the approach.
ATC: We'd still like you to be out of there so turn early for the approach.
Me: Roger, I'll turn early. [We skirted along outside edge of the MOA]

Later on after doing the approach we ended up just flying a few hundred feet over the MOA doing the full approach and ATC didn't say anything.

Now, my question is would you interpret their "heavy emphasis", despite not being a full "remain clear of the MOA" instruction appropriate and/or typical? Also, would me being at the upper level of the MOA be considered entering it. And, would this be a problem for participants of the MOA.