MOA details?

[MarkZ]

Now, my question is would you interpret their "heavy emphasis", despite not being a full "remain clear of the MOA" instruction appropriate and/or typical?

Yes to both. Class E airspace is not positive control. Just like when the controller says "no separation services provided" on that practice approach. That doesn't mean the controller won't try to push you, even assertively, to stay away from the MOA. You aren't being compelled by FAR to listen, but controllers don't do this stuff to get their kicks.

Also, would me being at the upper level of the MOA be considered entering it.

If you are in the altitudes of the MOA, you are in the MOA. If the published altitudes are 500 AGL up to but not including 6000, and you are maintaining 6,000 feet you are not in the MOA. BUT, that means a participant can go up to 5,999! Why would you want to thread that needle? To say that you did it?

And, would this be a problem for participants of the MOA.

It depends on the participants. ATC will notify participants of any intruder or potential intruder. I've seen f-16's do all sorts of stuff from my warning. I've seen A-10's keep at least a 5 mile gap between them and the spots where I'm pointing out the intruder. So i guess it depends on whether or not you think a military exercise being modified/aborted at the last second as a problem.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[CT4ME]

Geez, in the West, if we treated MOAs as something to avoid, you'd have trouble flying at all. And because of the mountains, you don't often get FF help, unless you're 10-11K+. I'm a bit hesitant to believe FF after they put me to within 30 seconds from breaking into a very hot R-area. I just happen to ask, "isn't the restricted area hot", and after a pause they come back with, ah, YES. 180 time.

 

[tehmightypirate]

It depends on the participants. ATC will notify participants of any intruder or potential intruder. I've seen f-16's do all sorts of stuff from my warning. I've seen A-10's keep at least a 5 mile gap between them and the spots where I'm pointing out the intruder. So i guess it depends on whether or not you think a military exercise being modified/aborted at the last second as a problem.

Great info, thanks.

Yeah, as we weren't holding exactly 3,000 MSL it made sense to turn early to stay out of it, had no problem with that. AFAIK the MOA is used by national guard to practice helicopter rescue, landing, and other low level activities so I wasn't too worried.

My real question about bothering the MOA was wither a few hundred feet clear is sufficient when I'm just going to be flying in a prescribed approach path anyway.

 

[Brink]

Maybe this is a stupid question, but where would I find details about MOA controlling agencies and altitudes? Some MOAs have notes on the chart, but some do not. I am interested in flying to some airports within MOAs, and would like to know who to contact for activity updates, and if the MOA starts at a certain altitude.

 

[35 AoA]

My real question about bothering the MOA was wither a few hundred feet clear is sufficient when I'm just going to be flying in a prescribed approach path anyway.

You wouldn't be the first person to (legally) fly VFR into a MOA. Sometimes it is a pain, sometimes it is absolutely no big deal. Just depends on the airspace and if it is actually being used (and of if so, where the participants actually are). We can share the skies pretty easily, I wouldn't sweat it.

 

[bflynn]

Yes to both. Class E airspace is not positive control. Just like when the controller says "no separation services provided" on that practice approach. That doesn't mean the controller won't try to push you, even assertively, to stay away from the MOA. You aren't being compelled by FAR to listen, but controllers don't do this stuff to get their kicks.

The question is not about entering MOAs, it's about following ATC instruction. I refer to the chief counsel Karas opinion and quote a relevant conclusion - https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...erps/2013/Karas_2013_Legal_Interpretation.pdf

A pilot flying VFR in Class E airspace, which is controlled airspace, is not required to communicate with A TC; however, if a pilot is communicating with A TC and ATC issues an instruction, the pilot must comply with that instruction.

If you're on flight following and ATC gives you a vector to fly, you must fly it. If something happens, you're going to have a very tough time defending a decision to go forward, even if ATC phrases it as a suggestion.

 

[Velocity173]

8 years. Not bad.

Here’s the problem I have with the Karas Letter. We always talk about ATC assigning a clearance / instruction that we can’t comply with. You’re told to follow a heavy in the tower pattern, you’re uncomfortable, say “unable.” That’s not an emergency but everyone on POA agrees with PIC authority (91.3) and the guidance laid out in AIM 4-4-1.

Well, now ATC is assigning a vector to a VFR around an MOA. One that’s against the airspace order (7400.2) and technically against the .65 but we won’t go there. Now, say that vector won’t allow you to reach your destination because of fuel. Say it goes into IMC. Does the pilot not have the authority to say unable? If not, then when?

https://www.boldmethod.com/blog/lists/2022/01/ten-times-you-should-say-unable-to-atc/

 

[MrAnderson]

agreed - get FF and they'll tell you. I just did a long XC for a weekend trip and flew over several on my way up and down...in fact, flew right over the top of Dyess AFB (B-1's are there...) and one of their MOA's. ATC will tell you if the zone is hot.

Look familiar?

 

[Velocity173]

The question is not about entering MOAs, it's about following ATC instruction. I refer to the chief counsel Karas opinion and quote a relevant conclusion - https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...erps/2013/Karas_2013_Legal_Interpretation.pdf



If you're on flight following and ATC gives you a vector to fly, you must fly it. If something happens, you're going to have a very tough time defending a decision to go forward, even if ATC phrases it as a suggestion.

Mark Z left POA years ago.

 

[EdFred]

Mark Z left POA years ago.

If by years you mean 2 months.

He was logged on in October.

 

[Velocity173]

If by years you mean 2 months.

He was logged on in October.

Ok, posted years ago.

 

[bflynn]

Missed the necro. So much fun.

 

[Sundancer]

Not an aviation lawyer but my understanding is once you accept flight following, you are obligated to follow ATC instructions: MOA, Class anything, whatever. All the usual disclaimers apply - like "unable" in order to remain VFR, or dodge the gaggle of ultralights, etc.

 

[unsafervguy]

If you cancel flight following, you still have the instruction, even if it isn't "valid." 91.123(b) does not qualify the type of instruction as to whether ATC overstepped its bounds or not. It says that you SHALL comply in any controlled airspace. Only emergencies are excepted.

Wikipedia is an authoritative source for absolutely nothing.

Class C also does not require a clearance, but if ATC tells you to remain clear, you remain clear or defend your certificate.

Playing airborne lawyer is an exceedingly bad idea, even if you're "right."

wrong. read all of 91.123
Except in an emergency, no person may operate an aircraft contrary to an ATC instruction in an area in which air traffic control is exercised.
even under FF atc is not "in an area in which air traffic control is exercised"

 

[unsafervguy]

Not an aviation lawyer but my understanding is once you accept flight following, you are obligated to follow ATC instructions: MOA, Class anything, whatever. All the usual disclaimers apply - like "unable" in order to remain VFR, or dodge the gaggle of ultralights, etc.

if you don't like what they say, "cancel flight following" ends it right there.

 

[Half Fast]

even under FF atc is not "in an area in which air traffic control is exercised"

That area would be class G airspace. Air terrific control is exercised in A, B, C, D, and E.

How often do you have FF while in G? For that matter, how often are you in G at all, other than take-off and landing?

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

https://sua.faa.gov/sua/siteFrame.app

 

[unsafervguy]

That area would be class G airspace. Air terrific control is exercised in A, B, C, D, and E.

How often do you have FF while in G? For that matter, how often are you in G at all, other than take-off and landing?

FF is not atc control, it is an advisory service. in most cases, atc cannot initiate a vector under FF, they will give an suggested heading.

 

[Half Fast]

FF is not atc control, it is an advisory service. in most cases, atc cannot initiate a vector under FF, they will give an suggested heading.

True but unimportant. I was responding to your comment regarding “in an area where air traffic control is exercised.” It is exercised everywhere except class G.

FF is beside the point. The point is that if you are in communication with ATC in an area where ATC exercises control (i.e., class A, B, C, D, or E), and if ATC gives you an instruction (i.e., “maintain present altitude”), you must follow their instructions unless you are unable. The only uncontrolled areas are class G, which is a very small portion of the airspace and we don’t do much flying there.

Usually ATC will make recommendations rather than give instructions, but they certainly can issue an instruction if necessary. You can always say “unable.” The only times I have had ATC give me instructions on FF were for traffic avoidance, which I followed immediately, and once clear they told me to resume my own navigation.

 

[unsafervguy]

True but unimportant. I was responding to your comment regarding “in an area where air traffic control is exercised.” It is exercised everywhere except class G.

FF is beside the point. The point is that if you are in communication with ATC in an area where ATC exercises control (i.e., class A, B, C, D, or E), and if ATC gives you an instruction (i.e., “maintain present altitude”), you must follow their instructions unless you are unable. The only uncontrolled areas are class G, which is a very small portion of the airspace and we don’t do much flying there.

Usually ATC will make recommendations rather than give instructions, but they certainly can issue an instruction if necessary. You can always say “unable.” The only times I have had ATC give me instructions on FF were for traffic avoidance, which I followed immediately, and once clear they told me to resume my own navigation.

the point is, except in airspace where you are required to be in contact with them, ie a,b,c,d. notice i did not mention e, under VFR they have no control over you in E, you have no requirement to be in contact with them, so they are not exercising control of you, that the point about FF s they are advising you, not controlling you. only under very strict conditions can they give you an instruction, such as you pointed out, to avoid a collision s one
i am not saying that under FF if they give you a instruction you should not comply, because of their strict guidlines there was probably very good reason to do it.
that is also what the karas ruling says, if you choose to talk to them, then you must comply. but they must also comply with their rules and only give an instruction when their rules allow it.

 

[sourdough44]

Yes the ‘controlling ATC’ authority has(usually) real time info on if the MOA is hot or not. It’s more accurate than a Notam from hours prior.

I fly to an airport at times covered by a MOA, 1200’ AGL or so. The other technique is to go through at the edges of the airspace. As an example, if 1200 AGL, go through near the bottom altitude.

Yes, I usually try to avoid a hot MOA.

 

[Half Fast]

under VFR they have no control over you in E, you have no requirement to be in contact with them, so they are not exercising control of you, that the point about FF s they are advising you, not controlling you.

Flight Following has absolutely nothing to do with it. All that matters is whether you are communicating with ATC. It's simply untrue to say "...under VFR they have no control over you in E,..." because E is controlled airspace. If you're communicating in E and they do issue an instruction to you, you must follow it if able.

No, you're not required to be in contact with ATC when flying in E, but if you are (maybe you're asking an airspace status question), you're on the hook to follow instructions. And if you are in fact using FF, then obviously you're communicating.

 

[Sundancer]

Geez, in the West, if we treated MOAs as something to avoid, you'd have trouble flying at all. And because of the mountains, you don't often get FF help, unless you're 10-11K+. I'm a bit hesitant to believe FF after they put me to within 30 seconds from breaking into a very hot R-area. I just happen to ask, "isn't the restricted area hot", and after a pause they come back with, ah, YES. 180 time.

Much the same in coastal North Carolina - I'm relatively new here and usually file IFR - the App/Dep facility that I work when first airborne is Cherry Point; they work the nearby Restricted and MOA areas and are up on what's active or not. Monday I got a "direct" through one that was cold. Wilmington approach and Seymour Johnson sound like they know what's hot or cold in real time, as well. But yeah, controllers can make a mistake - we need to cooperate with each other.

I remember being on a low-level route at 300' AGL (C130E) in Virginia and passing under a gaggle of ultralights - I thought about the Guard fighters out of Andrews bombing through there quite a bit faster. It got worked out, as one of our pilots was a noise at FAA and he did some non-bureaucratic outreach to that community, and it was sorted amicably as I recall. Closure rates by fighters can be astounding, even when sub-sonic. They move through the vertical awful fast, too. And it can even be hard to see something like a C130 down low on a cloudy day. Long winded way of saying just stay out of a hot MOA when VFR.