I think it includes any change, removing SSN, adding English proficiency, maybe even replacement if lost.
Minnesota Father and 3 sons missing in Wyoming.
- Thread starter gismo
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I think it includes any change, removing SSN, adding English proficiency, maybe even replacement if lost.
gismo
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Sounds like you're following the same advice but in your case you are the passenger who's expecting the pilot to perform adequately as well as being the pilot.
ChrisS
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If you look at his family's blog he was learning to fly in 2008, it looks like the original issue date.
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steingar
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My one pal who moved to Ft. Collins told me he was told never to go IFR over terrain. Wasn't that big a deal, he told me Ft. Collins had 300 days of sunshine a year. Still, makes sense to me. Navigate wrong and you can become a permanent part of the landscape.
COFlyBoy
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Yeah, basically the rule is if you can't climb to the MEA/MOCA with one engine out then you shouldn't be in IMC over the mountains.
alaskaflyer
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And people always say never fly IFR while visiting Alaska too.
After I moved up here I realized that is less of a rule of thumb than a gentle caution. Plenty of folks fly IFR safely here all the time. It takes judgement, familiarity with weather, knowledge of how to operate outside the radar environment and an honest accounting of the airplane's and pilot's capabilities. Just like IFR in the Rockies.
dmccormack
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dennyleeb
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Bottom line is he made several mistakes. In flying when you make those mistakes you pay with your life and all those on board pay as well. Someone on here said it best "be as good as the ones who trust you think you are". So true. On that day he was not.
steingar
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My guess is it takes a boatload of local knowledge to do safely. It is possible that those with extensive experience flying around the Rockies or Alaska might be able to do IFR safely, though my guess is in the case of the Rockies they have aircraft capable of going well over the rocks. I don't think I could be trained well enough to fly around invisible rocks. My own rocks just aren't that big.
Clark1961
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Another pilot died while IFR/IMC in a small aircraft over the Rockies on Sunday. A doctor from Iowa went down in the Sangre de Christo mountains. Reportedly he was at 20,000 feet and made a rapid descent until off radar. Pilot and passenger killed. The aircraft was a Malibu.
For the folks who are willing to go IFR/IMC in the hills, please keep this in mind. No matter how much local knowledge you have, ya gotta be able to maintain MEA or OROCA after losing an engine...
gismo
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Lose "an" engine in a Malibu and you won't be able to maintain MEA anywhere, mountains or not. If the Iowa Malibu made a "rapid descent" it probably wasn't due to engine failure unless that failure was a fire.
Clark1961
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That is one of my points. Thank you for stating it bluntly.
My other point, which you apparently missed, is that losing the engine while in IMC over the bumps is a very bad situation.
A recent poster suggested that single engine IFR/IMC in the mountains is okay if ya have a lot of local knowledge. I suspect no amount of local knowledge would have saved the recently departed doctor unless that local knowledge said not to fly single engine IFR/IMC over or in the bumps.
(I'll skip commenting that a press report of rapid descent is quite subjective)
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COFlyBoy
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I'll add to Clark's assertion that you should also be able to maintain the MEA/OROCA with all engines operating and with one engine inoperative.
The guy in WY couldn't even maintain altitude at full power. You simply can't do that in the mountains.
I think the difference between SE IFR in the mountains versus in the flatland is that in the mountains you are not likely to be able to come down through the crud and find an acceptable place to land after an engine failure. On the plains you can hope to have a reasonable amount of time after you break out to at least aim at something soft or flat.
Which brings me to a question to your more experienced IFR folks. I'm halfway through my IR (planning to finish Aprilish) and I've started working out my personal minimums.
My question is do any of you have en-route ceiling limits? I'm thinking something to the effect of I won't fly unless there is at least 500 feet below the clouds or something of that sort.
It seems a little odd that the whole PP training program is saturated with training for what to do if the engine quits. But when you start IFR training it seems like the assumption is that the engine never quits, but "here's what you do if the radio quits".
gismo
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That's very dependent on exactly where in the mountains you're flying and how high you are if and when the engine quits. A Malibu at 20,000 has a lot more options compared to a Mooney or Bonanza at 12,000 and that "local knowledge" can go a long way to minimizing the exposure. And FWIW, flying any single IFR below O2 required altitudes in the flatlands provides very little improvement in the odds of a successful engine out landing unless it's good VMC below the clouds (see below).
Which brings me to a question to your more experienced IFR folks. I'm halfway through my IR (planning to finish Aprilish) and I've started working out my personal minimums.
My question is do any of you have en-route ceiling limits? I'm thinking something to the effect of I won't fly unless there is at least 500 feet below the clouds or something of that sort.[/quote]
I'd venture a guess that unless you're high enough to glide to a nearby airport or have good VMC (3000 AGL ceiling, 5 sm vis) you're odds for putting it down safely aren't good. Not horrible mind you, but nowhere near the kind of certainty one would like to have. The same is true when flying VFR over heavily wooded areas commonly found in the midwest so the concern isn't purely an IFR one. Fortunately, if you don't run out of gas (exhaustion or starvation) your odds of making any given flight without an engine failure are pretty darn good, good enough that a lot of pilots fly single engine airplanes over widespread IMC areas.
Good point.
flyingcheesehead
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I would suggest that visibility may play a larger role than ceiling in this case. 500 feet below the clouds won't do you much good at all if the visibility is only 1/2 mile. Likewise, you can have 3,000 feet below the clouds and it's all for naught if the vis sucks.
FWIW, radio failures are much more common than engine failures. Also, lost comm happens for more reasons than just a radio failure - The closest I've ever come to lost comm was when a controller just completely forgot to hand me off, and by the time I figured something was amiss, I was at the fringes of his radio range. Sure, I could have found my way back onto the correct frequency via what's on the enroute charts or guard, but until communications were re-established, lost comm procedures would still be in effect.
skidoo
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How are you going to know the ceiling if you are on top? I have not yet been able to gather that information around my mountains, except for certain airport locations. It varies quite a bit en-route.
flyingcheesehead
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I'm not sure I've ever had ATC ask me that question - I know I've heard it, so I may have, or it may have been someone else.
Other things that may contribute to me not hearing it much are that my home field is a class C and even when I go somewhere I'm generally in radar coverage almost right away. Also, when feasible I do pick up my clearance in the air - IMHO there's no reason not to if the ceilings and vis at the departure are decent VFR and I know that I have lots of options should I not get the clearance right away. It gets me going faster, and I'm radar identified immediately.
That'll do it. We do have a pair of big towers near Madison, but we're always on radar before we can get anywhere near them, even at outlying airports. The other big towers I've flown near are in Milwaukee (nearby radar) and Des Moines (nearby radar) and... Etc.
Probably when you're below their MVA and the MIA, but hopefully Steven will be by to educate us shortly.
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Well, there's a reason why iFlyTwins, and you've hit on a good part of it.
To answer your question, I don't set minimums en route. I've had times when I've happily flown at 11,000 ft over VV001. Ultimately it comes down to what your personal risk tolerance is. I see a lot of reasons why, whether over flatlands or mountains, having a spare is a nice feature (of course, in the mountains you need a much more powerful spare).
In a single, perhaps I'd think differently. But I stepped up to twins before I my personal minimums were enough for it to make much of a difference in a single.
jesse
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I absolutely love instrument flying - it just brings the geek out in me - and I like to think I'm fairly competent doing so. But it certainly increases the risk level and I fully understand and accept that risk. If I have a passenger I bluntly explain the risk to them and let them make their own decision.
I'll depart IFR at night in a single without much hesitation. I avoid the stupid stuff (ice and thunderstorms) and have yet to ever feel the need to mess with mountains. If the fan stops turning I might walk away or I might not.
If I had the option to fly a twin at a rate I could afford I would fly a twin on IMC flights without a doubt. It's just as fun and it eliminates some risks IMO (if you're proficient) but since I don't have the option (yet) I play the cards I have.
I'll depart IFR at night in a single without much hesitation. I avoid the stupid stuff (ice and thunderstorms) and have yet to ever feel the need to mess with mountains. If the fan stops turning I might walk away or I might not.
If I had the option to fly a twin at a rate I could afford I would fly a twin on IMC flights without a doubt. It's just as fun and it eliminates some risks IMO (if you're proficient) but since I don't have the option (yet) I play the cards I have.
wabower
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If you're curious about the risk of SE fatal accidents due to engine failure while IFR at night, Dick Collins studied and wrote about it at length in both the magazine and (some of) his books. He concluded that the risk is insignficant, and so small it doesn't qualify as a category. Instead, it's just part of the "misc other" category.
denverpilot
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I would be interested to know in this specific case what would have been done with him by ATC if he had said, "Negative."
denverpilot
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Yep, CAP and others mobilized. I got the alert call for ground crews only that night and aircrews out of KCOS couldn't launch safely until 14:30 the next day.
Over 300 people mobilized. Many rode snowmobiles in the dark (risking themselves in a storm in some pretty rough terrain) until 04:20 that night, hoping to find someone alive.
We Coloradoans will go to some pretty big extremes to try to pull your butt out of the backcountry to do this, but often all we are really doing is starting the body recovery early.
Even if the aircraft was in one piece up there, exposure kills in hours. It's not very hospitable terrain for even well-prepared humans. And the weather was God-awful. Without mountain survival gear on board and no injuries so you can get to it and use it, chances on a night like that night are exceedingly low.
Apologies for the bluntness, but it's a fact of life we live with out here. Hikers caught out overnight unprepared succumb to hypothermia and die within an hour's car drive of my metropolitan city home, every year. In the Summertime.
Deepest condolences to the families. It has been reported that even after it was clear that no one had likely survived, they stayed at the search base to personally thank incoming search crews. An incredible amount of class and civility from folks who had lost loved-ones. Unbelievably touching to many of the volunteer searchers.
denverpilot
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By the way, one Mountain Mission-qualified CAP pilot friend said something once that got my attention many many years ago... "People won't fly over water during good weather without a flotation device on, and a raft in the back. But they launch out over the Rockies mid-winter with a Polo shirt, jeans, and tennis shoes on... Maybe a heavy coat in the back. No survival kit. No personal beacon. A dead ELT. And their kids on board. IMC."
As far as single-pilot IMC in the Rockies with a single-engine aircraft? Haven't met a search pilot yet who'd do it. And four local CFIs who all said the same thing. "Don't."
As far as single-pilot IMC in the Rockies with a single-engine aircraft? Haven't met a search pilot yet who'd do it. And four local CFIs who all said the same thing. "Don't."
flyingcheesehead
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Hmmm. I've done it...
... but only VERY briefly, because I was about to cross the saddle in the Big Horn range and I couldn't see blue sky on the other side. Better to climb up to the MEA (12,000 feet, V324 west of Crazy Woman) and go IFR, than to try VFR and go "splat". So I set up in a hold at CZI as I climbed and air-filed with Denver Center, eventually getting my clearance about the same time as I reached 12K.
Then again, the terrain up there isn't nearly as bad as it is in Colorado. MEA's aren't really reachable in normally aspirated airplanes in the Colorado Rockies. Yeah, sure, theoretically they are - But about the best you can do heading west in Colorado on an airway is 16,000 and N/A birds just don't do so hot up there - When I had the 182 at 17,500 I was pulling 12" of manifold pressure at full throttle and indicating 80mph, AKA Vg, AKA almost behind the power curve and certainly a very small margin for anything to go wrong. So I wouldn't be doing it in Colorado either.
Ted
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That doesn't surprise me as these engines do tend to keep spinning, but I view the biggest advantages of a twin in the ability to complete a mission after many failures. Obviously if you lose an engine you're landing (unless you're close enough to your destination that it makes sense to fly there), but in the cases I've had of things like losing an alternator, losing a magneto (with a bad plug on the good mag no less), losing a vacuum pump, etc., the twin has really shown its benefit there. Singles would have left me stranded somewhere a number of times when a twin has gotten me home.
Although to me the real point of flying IFR over the Rockies in a single: it depends on your risk tolerance. If you know what you're getting into and accept it as a risk, then that's fine. Personally, you could probably convince me to do it in a TBM or a Meridian without much trouble. Otherwise, I'd be looking for a pretty powerful twin.
COFlyBoy
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Yeah, I don't expect to be able to determine the en-route ceilings in the mountains. Here in CO, most of the mountain AWOS are not any peaks, so that means that means there is always terrain that is higher than the reporting station.
Over the flat stuff though, you should be able to get an idea of the average ceiling en-route by looking at reports along the route of flight.
dmccormack
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True, but since those statements he has retracted some of his conclusions. For example, the number of fatal accidents SEL IMC is disproportionately high. But there aren't that many since few SEL airplanes are flying IMC at night.
And all it takes is one encounter, and you might say "To he77 with statistics!"
My small sample set includes one competent CFI who lost power over Nebraska IMC, at night -- hit the only tree in the state, and the airplane caught fire. He's alive, but not flying anymore. He has had numerous surgeries for extensive burns.
Another is a well-known, highly respected DPE that plowed a SEL into the side of a mountain in the Adirondacks. IMC, at night.
Another local DPE flying a deiced A36 collided with the ground a few miles short of the Cumberland Airport. IMC, at night.
I've flown SEL at night, but prefer not to. As i mentioned in another post, it's not just the pax I have to be concerned with, it's the people who will suffer if I'm not around -- wife, children, grandchildren, mother, father, siblings, and a who knows how many others...?
wabower
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Jesse's comments referenced engine failure accidents, as did my response. Are we talking about the same thing?
dmccormack
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Yes -- since an engine failure IMC at night SEL is likely a fatal.
And a twin won't always save you. I know of an incident with a 58TC Baron. On contract with the Forest Service doing fire spotting around Leadville. Lost an engine and found he couldn't hold altitude with one. He drifted down looking for a place to land and finally go maintain 11,000 or so. Put it down on an old road in South Park. Granted it was hot. John, a multi-thousand hour pilot from Atlanta admits he got a good reminder of DA that day. He said he never thought a TC wouldn't get him back to PUB in good VMC.
Ted
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Doesn't really surprise me for a hot day out there. A RAM T310R would be my choice in the piston world at 335 hp a side, but first I'd like to go fly in my friend's and see just what he can actually maintain with one shut down.
wabower
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No it's not. That was the point of the research and the article. Many of them were walk-away's if the pilot kept it right-side-up, under control and at the appropriate speed.
dmccormack
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I think he re-worked that data in a fairly recent FLYING before he retired.
el con
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Really sorry for the family they left behind.
Makes me think that it may not be as pretty but I love this Michigan flatland. On the other hand we have some nasty stuff with our Great Lakes to contend with.
Makes me think that it may not be as pretty but I love this Michigan flatland. On the other hand we have some nasty stuff with our Great Lakes to contend with.
Agree, not a place to be in bad weather with that airplane. But in good weather.............here's the area. This is west of Jackson.
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wabower
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Do you know when? I'd like to see it. The initial article referenced some case studies (NTSB) that I used for a number of years. If the conclusions are different, I should probably change my story.
steingar
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Like I said, you guys can have your rocks.
Funny nighttime VFR story. I did my nighttime Xcountry training flight up to Cleveland. It went pretty late, so I didn't get up particularly early the next morning (privilege of working in academia). When I got into the lab quite a bit later than my usual, my post doc looked up from his computer, and his face was white as a sheet. It seems someone else came down that night and died, and when I didn't show up at the usual time he thought it was me. He was just setting up his CV to find a new job.
I'll do nighttime VFR here in the flat land. It is a hard thing to avoid if you want to go somewhere during the winter, with its early darkness. But I hold no illusions about my chances if the mill stops turning. And won't do it over mountains, not even the itty bitty ones here.
Funny nighttime VFR story. I did my nighttime Xcountry training flight up to Cleveland. It went pretty late, so I didn't get up particularly early the next morning (privilege of working in academia). When I got into the lab quite a bit later than my usual, my post doc looked up from his computer, and his face was white as a sheet. It seems someone else came down that night and died, and when I didn't show up at the usual time he thought it was me. He was just setting up his CV to find a new job.
I'll do nighttime VFR here in the flat land. It is a hard thing to avoid if you want to go somewhere during the winter, with its early darkness. But I hold no illusions about my chances if the mill stops turning. And won't do it over mountains, not even the itty bitty ones here.
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Probably they would have been given a vector toward the lower terrain to the southwest. They were aiming for the highest point in Wyoming. As I understand it they crashed near Gannett Peak which I have circled on this map.
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dmccormack
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