Minimum panel redundancy for IFR

George Mohr

George Mohr

Line Up and Wait
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Gmohr
Hi all,

Working on my IFR currently, and considering my airplane's equipment. I have a PA-28-161 with a pretty nice panel. Here's the inventory:

430W w/ GI-106A
KX-155 w/ KI-208 (no GS)
GTX-345
Stec 20
(No alt static source)

This setup has a lot of capability, but not much redundancy. For example, if I were to lose the 430, I'd be out all GPS, DME, and glideslope. Perhaps worse, a vacuum pump or AI failure means no attitude info (although the 345 does present AHRS on the iPad).

So my question to you all is, what, if anything, would you consider important enough to warrant an upgrade? Or, is this setup more than enough as is? I was thinking of adding a single G5 maybe...

Thanks!
George
 
Last edited:
George Mohr said:
So my question to you all is, what, if anything, would you consider important enough to warrant an upgrade? Or, is this setup more than enough as is?
Click to expand...

I'd consider myself to be important enough to warrant more redundancy.

Of course, that depends on what type of IFR you are flying. I know guys who fly IFR more for airspace and light clouds and I know guys who will fly in stuff that I think is far more suitable for experienced professional pilots. If I was more toward the latter on the spectrum (which I am working toward, commuting in a C182 between DC and NY), I'd invest in more. If I were keeping IFR capability for practice with a spotter and exercise on inadvertent situations primarily, I'd maybe spend less.
 
Great point. My usage will be for occasional travel. I'm pretty sure I wont be anywhere near LIFR conditions for quite some time. I have no illusions about icing, tstorms, etc. Really I'm trying to expand my VFR weather window into mild IFR conditions.
 
For many guys I know here, they wouldn't invest in the redundancy that I have based on that level of flying. Just remember, people are always available to help you expand as your experiences grow! ;)
 
Flying partial panel is part of instrument training. Get through that before making upgrade decisions. Simple things like replacing or upgrading the vacuum pump may satisfy your concern with attitude indication. Or it may not. Everyone has their own level of acceptable risk.
 
George Mohr said:
Hi all,

Working on my IFR currently, and considering my airplane's equipment. I have a PA-28-161 with a pretty nice panel. Here's the inventory:

430W w/ GI-106A
KX-155 w/ KI-208 (no GS)
GTX-345
Stec 20
(No alt static source)

This setup has a lot of capability, but not much redundancy. For example, if I were to lose the 430, I'd be out all GPS, DME, and glideslope. Perhaps worse, a vacuum pump or AI failure means no attitude info (although the 345 does present AHRS on the iPad).

So my question to you all is, what, if anything, would you consider important enough to warrant an upgrade? Or, is this setup more than enough as is? I was thinking of adding a single G5 maybe...

Thanks!
George
Click to expand...
Like Sardonux said, it depends a lot on what kind of flying you are doing.

The answer may vary greatly whether your concern is simply getting safe on deck if you lose the 430 or vacuum system in flight vs if you are concerned about dispatch reliability in the even that you lose the 430 on a mutli-leg cross country and its IFR at the next stop.

From a safety standpoint, I think you are fine with what you have now….as long as you know how to call up the AHRS and are comfortable using it. It can and will keep you blue side up IF you know how to set it up. Hunting for it in the app while in an actual emergency is not the way to do it. You may lose DME, but in an emergency, you can get yourself down to earth using distance on your iPad or probable GPS.

Now, if your concern is being able to launch again on the next leg after losing the 430, you might want to add some stuff to the panel. Personally, I like having a second GS on the Nav 2, but it isn't totally necessary unless you are in areas that frequently get socked in with LIFR. Unless you really want to spend money, I wouldn't worry about a second certified GPS or DME.

If you are considering upgrading the panel and want the most flexibility without breaking the bank, I'd suggest swapping the GI-106A for a Garmin G5 HSI. You could also replace the AI with another G5a and then you could remove the whole vacuum system.

Also, you DO have an alternate static source: you can break the glass on the VSI in an emergency.
 
the cheapest/ capable addition you can make is plugging a GDL39 3D and placing it on the on the dash. Get a split usb cigarette lighter thing so you can still charge your tablet/phone. stick a ram mount up and put your ipad there. If there is a total avionics failure, you can fly on your ipad and have almost as good of odds getting to a runway as you would if you had a full on 40k avionics backup system.
G5's are nice too, have two stacked in my Piper Archer. super long battery life ( so even in 20 years when the battery degrades to like 20% it'll still provide 30 minutes to get out of crap)
 
I would consider a Garmin 696,or 796,as a back up,I like my I pad with foreflight and the stratus.
 
Good thing failures never happened when that was considered a well-equipped airplane! ;)

Seriously, the biggest factor in redundancy is being proficient with what you've got. If your backup is needle, ball, and airspeed, make sure you get enough instruction and practice to be proficient in that. If your backup is portable electronic devices, same thing...enough instruction and practice to be proficient.
 
Yeah sorry, forgot to list that. Electric TC w/ ball. It is integrated into the Stec-20.
 
Everything you have seem more than enough for your mission, of course you can always toss as much money at an aircraft to make yourself FEEL better, however the largest failure point is going to be her pilot, and that's by a large margin.

Only thing I might add is altitude hold and GPSS for the autopilot.
 
I really want a two-axis A/P. Very much sitting on the fence until these new lower-cost ones become mature. Also, there's always the idea of upgrading the airplane to something like an M20J, so I have to walk the line between sensible and extravagant.

Tks!
 
The first, and maybe only, thing I would add, considering your likely missions, would be a low-vacuum annunciator located next to the AI. Cheap, I don't know why all planes with vac systems don't have this. That and up-to-date partial panel skills and you're good to go.
 
DoubleD said:
The first, and maybe only, thing I would add, considering your likely missions, would be a low-vacuum annunciator located next to the AI. Cheap, I don't know why all planes with vac systems don't have this. That and up-to-date partial panel skills and you're good to go.
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Happily on my PA-28, the annunciators are very close to the primary instruments.

Capture.PNG
 
There is a backup vacumn system that installs into one of yoir intake runners and will supply enough vacumn to run the instruments if the primary fails. Easy install and relatively cheap and it works. Vacumn drops pull the knob and you are golden. Good enough to get on the ground safely.
 
Vaflier said:
There is a backup vacumn system that installs into one of yoir intake runners and will supply enough vacumn to run the instruments if the primary fails. Easy install and relatively cheap and it works. Vacumn drops pull the knob and you are golden. Good enough to get on the ground safely.
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Provided you have sufficient difference between your MP and ambient. Perhaps the best feature of this system is a large indicator light that warns you that your primary vacuum went away.

http://www.thevacsource.com/svs.php
 
Single pilot IFR in a lower-end GA single is tough work; we do lack redundancy, and even good/clear warnings on some failures. I've lost a glide slope with no indication of the failure, for example. It's tougher if you're not a professional pilot, or a pilot who flies a lot in IMC; I'm pretty partial to our single axis STEC, since I can muck about for an extra few seconds and still have the shiny side up.

Anyway, a backup set-up as was mentioned earlier, with your iPad is probably a solid, inexpensive way to get down. . .
 
George Mohr said:
Perhaps worse, a vacuum pump or AI failure means no attitude info (although the 345 does present AHRS on the iPad).
Click to expand...
Does your plane have a VSI? If so, that in addition to the turn coordinator (which has already been mentioned), provide a means of controlling your attitude.
 
Palmpilot said:
Does your plane have a VSI? If so, that in addition to the turn coordinator (which has already been mentioned), provide a means of controlling your attitude.
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The altimeter responds quicker and provides the necessary pitch information. One method for unusual attitude recovery is interpreting altimeter, airspeed, and heading. VSI is not a required instrument.
 
Clark1961 said:
The altimeter responds quicker and provides the necessary pitch information. One method for unusual attitude recovery is interpreting altimeter, airspeed, and heading. VSI is not a required instrument.
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I didn't realize that the VSI is not required equipment, but you're right. The planes I learned IFR in all had it, so I just assumed that it was required.

The guy I learned IFR from dealt with the VSI lag by teaching that the needle starts heading toward zero when the pitch is in level flight attitude. It seems to work for me. However, your point that the altimeter and airspeed can be used for pitch control confirms my point that a vacuum or AI failure does not eliminate pitch information.
 
Clark1961 said:
The altimeter responds quicker and provides the necessary pitch information. One method for unusual attitude recovery is interpreting altimeter, airspeed, and heading. VSI is not a required instrument.
Click to expand...

Uhh, for real world IFR it is.

Not sure I'd take any aircraft serious as a IMC plane if it didn't even have a VSI.
 
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