Military Pilot Shortage: Recruiting retired military pilots

Shepherd

Shepherd

Final Approach
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Shepherd
I hear through the grapevine that the military is so short of pilots it's contacting former pilots and asking if they want to get back into the service.
I think I'll go over to the Air Force recruiter and see if they want a bald, chubby, ancient Randy Quaid, wannabe.

"Hello boys. I'm baaaaack!"
 
Maybe that's why we haven't seen Levy in a while.
 
I’m a 38 year old accountant but I loved Top Gun as a kid, maybe the Navy will let me fly the F/A-18?
 
USAF having a difficult time retaining pilots due to the operating tempo of the long wars in the Middle East, airlines hiring, and now Korea heating up.
 
mscard88 said:
USAF having a difficult time retaining pilots due to the operating tempo of the long wars in the Middle East, airlines hiring, and now Korea heating up.
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Your list could be a lot longer. Social engineering is at the top of my list of complaints. But there are many others.
 
Cooter said:
Your list could be a lot longer. Social engineering is at the top of my list of complaints. But there are many others.
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I'm sure there's more reasons. Many I knew when I was in just wanted to fly and not have to do the staff job type of stuff to get promoted.
 
mscard88 said:
I'm sure there's more reasons. Many I knew when I was in just wanted to fly and not have to do the staff job type of stuff to get promoted.
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Yeah, that's really the issue. It hasn't changed. The thing is, now you're going to have O-5s coming back to do the jobs of O-3s and O-4s. Not a bad deal in my opinion, but the the younger guys may continue to get screwed. We'll see how it plays out.
 
Jake said:
I’m a 38 year old accountant but I loved Top Gun as a kid, maybe the Navy will let me fly the F/A-18?
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This is the typical reaction from the layperson, and its not unreasonable, but it feeds off misinformation on the part of the DoD. The USAF is not having trouble filling cockpits, especially fighter cockpits that represent a tiny minority of its total manned flying jobs mind you (but represent the bulk of its recruiting optics, predictably). The USAF is having trouble filling the metric @ss ton of make work staff jobs they have coded for 11Fxnx (fighter pilot) or 11Xxnx (all pilots). That's why they want these retired or older separated folks. It ain't to put them back in the cockpit to go rage. And most of the audience that qualifies for said recall, knows this already.

The USAF is having some problems retaining middle management and core operational experience at the senior Capt/iron major level, and that one is almost exclusively running for the airline door. No amount of UPT pilot surge (which we are doing btw) is gonna fix that. We've just created another demographic bathtub that will be manifested in 10 years, since the AF won't learn its lessons and not look at everything from the myopic glasses of fenced "commissioned year groups". It's been a painful and entertaining train wreck to be part of in the last 5 years for sure.

mscard88 said:
I'm sure there's more reasons. Many I knew when I was in just wanted to fly and not have to do the staff job type of stuff to get promoted.
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Nah, you pretty much hit it. It's the staff jobs they're running away from. Also the basing choices and lack of desirable follow-on choices. The deployments are an issue because they're the make-work variety. A politically incorrect thing to say for most of us still in, but anyone who is in the heat of things knows the level of REMF dynamics in our so-called deployments is atrocious and a big reason why guys punch. If deployments were not for mil-ind complex supporting reasons and promotion container fodder, and actually had pilots performing their primary duty when deployed, this so-called shortage wouldn't exist.

At any rate, there's no shortage of people getting to fly airplanes. Matter of fact, there's a surplus of pilots wanting to who don't get to, which is why the exodus accelerates. It seems counter-intuitive to the layperson, but for the mil crowd it makes perfect sense.

Cooter said:
Yeah, that's really the issue. It hasn't changed. The thing is, now you're going to have O-5s coming back to do the jobs of O-3s and O-4s. Not a bad deal in my opinion, but the the younger guys may continue to get screwed. We'll see how it plays out.
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I guess we'll see. Based on the low take rate before this cap got lifted, and the continued lack of buy-in on my circle in the USAF, I don't think the AF has any intention of making a bunch of O-5 schedulers and 30-60-90 kings. This is the staff gigs. What they would be likely to do would be relieve the captains to get back on the saddle as a way of retaining that core demographic. It's the 13 year guy they're having trouble with, not the 17 year guy filling a staff gig, though a few of the latter are committing career seppuku and punching to the airlines within reach of an active duty retirement, mainly due to a really nasty PCS or 365 inside their 7-day-opt window. If they were to do all of this to help out the guy with a check already and continue to screw the guy they're trying to retain into 17 years, then it would be self-defeating imo, which is probably why they'll do it LOL. Like you said, I guess we will see.
 
I have a family member, military aviator, that would have been medically grounded back in the day; in his case they fixed the issue, or at least made it "good enough", and threw him back in the cockpit. There is absolutely zero chance he'll remain in after 20. It ain't the deployments or the pay; it's the leadership, the PC nonsense, and the cultural erosion. He's a Major, going on civilian, and knows his flying days would be numbered anyway.

A billion years ago, when I was an Air Force reservist, the units were filled with escapees from AD; guys who wanted to fly, but didn't want the rest of the nonsense. At some point, mid-late 80's, I think, the Reserve and Guard crossed the threshold of flying more than 50% of all of USAF flying hours. Don't know if that's still the case, since it's been a while.
 
mscard88 said:
USAF having a difficult time retaining pilots due to the operating tempo of the long wars in the Middle East, airlines hiring, and now Korea heating up.
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The Air Force's problem is bigger than that.

Both Navy and Air Force are having a hard time retaining pilots right now because the Majors are seriously hiring.

But the AF situation is even worse because around 5 years ago, they purged the pilot force. Unlike the Navy, theAF booted everybody who didn't select for O5 and a couple years later they started crying because they couldn't fill their pilot and staff billets.
 
Cooter said:
Yeah, that's really the issue. It hasn't changed. The thing is, now you're going to have O-5s coming back to do the jobs of O-3s and O-4s. Not a bad deal in my opinion, but the the younger guys may continue to get screwed. We'll see how it plays out.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure that's quite how it will play out.

Some of the articles I was reading were taking about the retirees filling the empty staff billets to free up the current pilots for flying status jobs.

In other words, the recalled retirees were not likely going back to the cockpit because the cost would be too high to get them current again.
 
Sundancer said:
I have a family member, military aviator, that would have been medically grounded back in the day; in his case they fixed the issue, or at least made it "good enough", and threw him back in the cockpit. There is absolutely zero chance he'll remain in after 20. It ain't the deployments or the pay; it's the leadership, the PC nonsense, and the cultural erosion. He's a Major, going on civilian, and knows his flying days would be numbered anyway.

A billion years ago, when I was an Air Force reservist, the units were filled with escapees from AD; guys who wanted to fly, but didn't want the rest of the nonsense. At some point, mid-late 80's, I think, the Reserve and Guard crossed the threshold of flying more than 50% of all of USAF flying hours. Don't know if that's still the case, since it's been a while.
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Happens after every war. Same thing after VN. Then a year or two later they were short. First Gulf War, ditto. They never learn.
 
Sundancer said:
A billion years ago, when I was an Air Force reservist, the units were filled with escapees from AD; guys who wanted to fly, but didn't want the rest of the nonsense. At some point, mid-late 80's, I think, the Reserve and Guard crossed the threshold of flying more than 50% of all of USAF flying hours. Don't know if that's still the case, since it's been a while.
Click to expand...

That hasn't changed. The Reserves is still considered to be a repository of "quitters" who transitioned away from active duty for quality of life reasons. As someone who is the now often fabled minority off-the-street career "Guard/Reserve Baby" I can attest to this history. I am the only in my squadron for sure. That's in excess of 100 officers and flyers. So I'd say the active duty quitter nature of the Reserves is still very much the lion share of the demographic.

The problem is that around 9/11, this perennial non-contested airspace AOR , REMF-laden turkey shoot so-called wars became fashionable among the oligarchy. Thence the need to transition away from the concept of "strategic reserve" to one of "expeditionary reserves" (an oxymoron imo) became a requirement. That level of sustained expeditionary participation was never really intended for the strategic Reserves. As a result, readiness requirements went up and so did ops tempo for the Reserve component, upsetting the apple cart of the Citizen Airman/Soldier/Sailor. In an effort to save money and exert more direct control for this cohort of people they were now increasingly relying more and more for the lion's share of "hackin' the mish' ", the AD led these AFSO21 styled "Total Force Enterprise" land grabs. As a result, all the QOL drivers for which Reserve service was previously known for, aka the aforementioned scoffing of the qweep people quit active duty over, exited Reserve life. The rest is history.

My last 7 years of service have been unequivocally bona fide Active Duty in all QOL respects except the non-voluntary deployment angle, and that only because my squadron happens to be institutional reserve as part of the training command (non-deployed by charter). Otherwise it'd be Active Duty life and career through and through. I cannot recognize the job from when I went in circa 2006, and even then that change had begun in earnest according to my predecessors.

At the end of the day, I've taken a significant early earning paycut compared to my Active Duty peers, in the form of longer delay to enter the military due to the competitive nature of securing a pilot slot in the ARC as an off-the street, and another further delay in securing a full time paying position due to refugee airline pilots crowding out the pot during the Lost Decade. But for that opportunity cost I've retained the ability to say NO at every corner of my career where active duty wished to encroach on my personal or family's welfare and self-determination. Which, for someone who chose indentured servitude in the first place, is a rather posh position all things considered. #hatethegame kinda thing. I have a few regrets in life, becoming a "Reserve baby" is must certainly not one of them.
 
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hindsight2020 said:
That hasn't changed. The Reserves is still considered to be a repository of "quitters" who transitioned away from active duty for quality of life reasons. As someone who is the now often fabled minority off-the-street career "Guard/Reserve Baby" I can attest to this history. I am the only in my squadron for sure. That's in excess of 100 officers and flyers. So I'd say the active duty quitter nature of the Reserves is still very much the lion share of the demographic.

The problem is that around 9/11, this perennial non-contested airspace AOR , REMF-laden turkey shoot so-called wars became fashionable among the oligarchy. Thence the need to transition away from the concept of "strategic reserve" to one of "expeditionary reserves" (an oxymoron imo) became a requirement. That level of sustained expeditionary participation was never really intended for the strategic Reserves. As a result, readiness requirements went up and so did ops tempo for the Reserve component, upsetting the apple cart of the Citizen Airman/Soldier/Sailor. In an effort to save money and exert more direct control for this cohort of people they were now increasingly relying more and more for the lion's share of "hackin' the mish' ", the AD led these AFSO21 styled "Total Force Enterprise" land grabs. As a result, all the QOL drivers for which Reserve service was previously known for, aka the aforementioned scoffing of the qweep people quit active duty over, exited Reserve life. The rest is history.

My last 7 years of service have been unequivocally bona fide Active Duty in all QOL respects except the non-voluntary deployment angle, and that only because my squadron happens to be institutional reserve as part of the training command (non-deployed by charter). Otherwise it'd be Active Duty life and career through and through. I cannot recognize the job from when I went in circa 2006, and even then that change had begun in earnest according to my predecessors.

At the end of the day, I've taken a significant early earning paycut compared to my Active Duty peers, in the form of longer delay to enter the military due to the competitive nature of securing a pilot slot in the ARC as an off-the street, and another further delay in securing a full time paying position due to refugee airline pilots crowding out the pot during the Lost Decade. But for that opportunity cost I've retained the ability to say NO at every corner of my career where active duty wished to encroach on my personal or family's welfare and self-determination. Which, for someone who chose indentured servitude in the first place, is a rather posh position all things considered. #hatethegame kinda thing. I have a few regrets in life, becoming a "Reserve baby" is must certainly not one of them.
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I went to the Reserves after one AD tour; after multiple recalls, that was it for me - a few weeks, or even a few months, to "supplment" was OK, and what I signed up for; but multiple months, then one in excess of a year, and an additional one looming pretty soon, and that was it for me - you can't sustain a civilian career that way, nor count on the orders being extended, either. I imagine the people managers do what fills the need, or at least the immediate need; but if your civilian career can't tolerate the constant interruptions, you have to make a call that works for you. I left 12+ years on the table,but I wasn't exactly alone in that.
 
Fearless Tower said:
I'm not sure that's quite how it will play out.

Some of the articles I was reading were taking about the retirees filling the empty staff billets to free up the current pilots for flying status jobs.

In other words, the recalled retirees were not likely going back to the cockpit because the cost would be too high to get them current again.
Click to expand...
Yeah, flying isn't going to be an option. I mostly meant that they will pick up the duties that have been filled by the O-3s and O-4s when they should have been flying. O-5s will be building power points and briefing the brass. Easy paycheck for those coming back. But the younger guys will still need to compile bullets for their OPRs so their QOL may not increase all that much.
 
Sundancer said:
I went to the Reserves after one AD tour; after multiple recalls, that was it for me - a few weeks, or even a few months, to "supplment" was OK, and what I signed up for; but multiple months, then one in excess of a year, and an additional one looming pretty soon, and that was it for me - you can't sustain a civilian career that way, nor count on the orders being extended, either. I imagine the people managers do what fills the need, or at least the immediate need; but if your civilian career can't tolerate the constant interruptions, you have to make a call that works for you. I left 12+ years on the table,but I wasn't exactly alone in that.
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I hear ya. I hit that cross-roads relatively early in my military so-called career. Attempting to seek tenured employment at a public university while holding down the requirements of a globally-deployable bomber pilot. Lots of ugly dynamics surfaced rather quickly, including illegal military membership questions during the interview, and it became immediately clear to me that outside of the airlines, the job of the non-typical Reservist (aka those who do not belong to the one weekend a month, two weeks a year club) is a non-starter for a bona fide civilian occupation, and any expectation of non-retribution in long term employment and career promotions is a pipe dream.

For me it was easy; the military flying was a bigger draw for me, and money and retirement blew the civilian job away anyways, so I gave up on having a civilian job. That was 10 years and one marriage ago; never in my wildest dreams would I have thought I'd end up on track to getting an Active Duty retirement. That's life for ya. The lesson of how civilian employers wipe their @ss with USERRA was never lost on me though, and again outside the airlines, I would never entertain the dual-job hussle. It's a losing proposition for a Reservist who wishes to participate in earnest.
 
They are desperate...

images
 
I'm a terrible person, and I know it.
I was out with my wife today and she needed to stop at Bed, Bath and Beyond.
Which just happens to be 2 doors down from the Armed Forces Recruiting Center.
So while she went in to look for a bed ruffle, I went into the Air Force recruiters and volunteered to go back on active duty.
By federal law, they have to let me fill out the papers. So I did.
By federal law, they have to process the papers. So they did.
I wish I could be there when they get the call from their headquarters.
That picture of the old geezer in the helmet and flight suit is probably what the recruiters were seeing.
Hey, it used up and hour, and kept me out of Bed, Bath and Beyond.
 
Read about that today, sign me up (not that I was ever in the air force to begin with). Good luck stuffing a 6 foot 3, 215 lb guy into a fighter jet
 
TRocket said:
Good luck stuffing a 6 foot 3, 215 lb guy into a fighter jet
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You might actually be surprised. I've known quite a few people like yourself to "fit". Big issue is normally sitting height, i.e. the actual seat of the ejection seat (which is the only part of the seat that moves up/down) can only adjust down so far, and in aircraft where the secondary means of ejection is often through the canopy, not being able to get the top of your head below the top of the seat structure is the bad thing. Rudder pedals have a much larger range of motion, thus allowing tall but statistically proportionate people (i.e. short torso, long legs) a bit more leeway.
 
35 AoA said:
You might actually be surprised. I've known quite a few people like yourself to "fit". Big issue is normally sitting height, i.e. the ejection seat can only adjust down so far, and in aircraft where the secondary means of ejection is often through the canopy, not being able to get the top of your head below the top of the seat is the bad thing. Rudder pedals have a much larger range of motion, thus allowing tall but statistically proportionate people (i.e. short torso, long legs) a bit more leeway.
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Good to know. If they would take me I'd be there...but I don't see the air force rounding up cherokee pilots anytime soon
 
TRocket said:
Good to know. If they would take me I'd be there...but I don't see the air force rounding up cherokee pilots anytime soon
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Granted, the actual shortage is not for fresh meat off the street, but if you are interested and qualified, I'd also say that at one point I was a "Cherokee pilot" too before the mil
 
35 AoA said:
Granted, the actual shortage is not for fresh meat off the street, but if you are interested and qualified, I'd also say that at one point I was a "Cherokee pilot" too before the mil
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Well, I'm 30 years old and the fastest thing I have ever flown is an arrow...soooo....
 
35 AoA said:
You might actually be surprised. I've known quite a few people like yourself to "fit". Big issue is normally sitting height, i.e. the actual seat of the ejection seat (which is the only part of the seat that moves up/down) can only adjust down so far, and in aircraft where the secondary means of ejection is often through the canopy, not being able to get the top of your head below the top of the seat structure is the bad thing. Rudder pedals have a much larger range of motion, thus allowing tall but statistically proportionate people (i.e. short torso, long legs) a bit more leeway.
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You all have a min / max height for flight training or just a reach limits type thing?
 
Velocity173 said:
You all have a min / max height for flight training or just a reach limits type thing?
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There are overall size restrictions for pilot in general, then there are specific requirements for each community. So if you're an outlier anthropomorphically, you might qualify for one airframe but not another. Sitting height is one of the criteria and reach is another. They must be pretty broad overall because we had one guy about 5'6 in my squadron, and another guy was 6'5. I thought 6'4 was the limit so he may have had a waiver. Ejection seats have weight limits as well. I've known people at both ends of the restrictions.
 
TRocket said:
Read about that today, sign me up (not that I was ever in the air force to begin with). Good luck stuffing a 6 foot 3, 215 lb guy into a fighter jet
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Plenty of us that size (and bigger) that fly fighters.
 
TRocket said:
Good to know, when I was younger and considering that I was told I was too tall. Times have changed or I was misled!
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I'd bet the latter. Best buddy of mine always wanted to fly A-10's when we were growing up. Said the "recruiter" told him he was too tall, would never get to fly. In hindsight, he went and talked to an enlisted recruiter......big surprise that was the answer he got. I got a similar answer (not about height, but just in general) from a Navy enlisted recruiter in the same timeframe while in high school (late 90's). 10 years later, I was flying jets that said "Navy" on the side.
 
35 AoA said:
I'd bet the latter. Best buddy of mine always wanted to fly A-10's when we were growing up. Said the "recruiter" told him he was too tall, would never get to fly. In hindsight, he went and talked to an enlisted recruiter......big surprise that was the answer he got. I got a similar answer (not about height, but just in general) from a Navy enlisted recruiter in the same timeframe while in high school (late 90's). 10 years later, I was flying jets that said "Navy" on the side.
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I always hated talking to enlisted recruiters back in high school. The lies and crap those dudes would push just to make quota were ridiculous.
 
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