Military jamming ADS-B traffic and TCAS?

[NoHeat]

Email from Foreflight announcing a notam for military interference with traffic is below.

My thoughts:
Why does the military endanger us?
How is Nextgen going to work, if the military does this?

=================================================

Dear ForeFlight Customer,

We want to make you aware of the following late breaking NOTAMs that have been issued due to military activities that may affect ADS-B traffic service over Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina, Georgia, and Florida beginning 1:00 am EDT September 2, 2015 until midnight EDT October 1, 2015.

The NOTAM numbers are as follows:

5/2817 New York Center (ZNY)
5/2818 Washington Center (ZDC)
5/2819 Jacksonville Center (ZJX)
5/2820 Miami Center (ZMA)
5/2834 NY Oceanic (ZWY)

For reference, here is the text from the ZNY NOTAM:

A0369/15 (FDC 5/2817) - SPECIAL NOTICE...DUE TO MILITARY ACTIVITIES ON 1030/1090 MHZ, THE TRAFFIC ALERT AND COLLISION AVOIDANCE SYSTEM (TCAS) AND AUTOMATIC DEPENDENT SYSTEM BROADCAST (ADS-B) SURVEILLANCE MAY BE UNRELIABLE IN THE AIRSPACE OVER THE STATES OF VIRGINIA, NORTH CAROLINA, SOUTH CAROLINA, GEORGIA, AND FLORIDA, AND EXTENDING APPROXIMATELY 200NM OFFSHORE. PILOTS ARE ADVISED THAT THE TRAFFIC ALERT AND COLLISION AVOIDANCE SYSTEM (TCAS) MAY FAIL TO ESTABLISH TRACKS ON NEARBY AIRCRAFT AND MAY FAIL TO RECEIVE TRAFFIC ALERTS (TA) AND/OR RESOLUTION ADVISORIES (RA). FURTHER, PILOTS ARE ADVISED THAT TRACKS MAY FIRST APPEAR WITHIN CLOSE PROXIMITY TO THEIR AIRCRAFT AND MAY IMMEDIATELY GO INTO TA/RA STATUS. FALSE ALERTS ARE NOT EXPECTED TO BE GENERATED BY THIS MILITARY ACTIVITY AND ANY ALERTS SHALL BE TREATED AS REAL

 

[bullwinkle]

Wow...over five entire states for a MONTH?!?

 

[Silvaire]

No false alerts, just the possible absence of real ones

 

[James331]

....don't forget, it's the terrorists™ who are threatening air travel

Sorry folks, look around, we lost the "war on terror" we got duped, they got us to threaten our own air travel system, forget whoever our enemy of the month is, who is going to protect us from our military. What a sad joke.

 

[Turningfinal]

The TCAS jamming is bull****.

Who in their right mind would approve that with millions of air passengers in the skies over that period?!?!?

 

[Shepherd]

Ladies and Gentleman, welcome to Jade Helm,

 

[Sundancer]

Large area. . . we're sort of used to it in the DC area, as Pax River does "things" related to GPS that degrades it on occasion. These are NOTAMed. We also assume that GPS position around Hagerstown is a bit "dithered" on occasion. Usuallly not involving TCAS; but ATC radar and controllers will keep the big meat wagons seperated safely.

And we can still look outside, file IFR, or get FF. Not sure about the "enemy of the month" hyperbole. Or the "military endangering us" nonsense, either. . .

 

[Velocity173]

Wow, go back to a system that worked fine before TCAS and ADS-B for a whole month. Not to mention the test is limited in range and duration. How will we ever survive?

 

[EdFred]

Wow, go back to a system that worked fine before TCAS and ADS-B for a whole month. Not to mention the test is limited in range and duration. How will we ever survive?

I was about to post the same thing. Technology makes people stupid.

 

[Turningfinal]

Wow, go back to a system that worked fine before TCAS and ADS-B for a whole month. Not to mention the test is limited in range and duration. How will we ever survive?

You do realize why TCAS began, right?

You'd be surprised at the number of TCAS RA's generated these days, especially below 10,000 feet.

I don't understand the need to interfere with TCAS particularly in a heavily traveled commercial corridor.

 

[Turningfinal]

Large area. . . we're sort of used to it in the DC area, as Pax River does "things" related to GPS that degrades it on occasion. These are NOTAMed. We also assume that GPS position around Hagerstown is a bit "dithered" on occasion. Usuallly not involving TCAS; but ATC radar and controllers will keep the big meat wagons seperated safely.

And we can still look outside, file IFR, or get FF. Not sure about the "enemy of the month" hyperbole. Or the "military endangering us" nonsense, either. . .

GPS is completely different animal than TCAS.

 

[txflyer]

Oh well, guess I'll have to break out the old Zaon PCAS.

Anyone want to buy that sucker? I'm not using it.

 

[docmirror]

Email from Foreflight announcing a notam for military interference with traffic is below.

My thoughts:
Why does the military endanger us?

sigh, if I told you, this thread would move to a special place, and it wouldn't be very polite there.

 

[Velocity173]

You do realize why TCAS began, right?

You'd be surprised at the number of TCAS RA's generated these days, especially below 10,000 feet.

I don't understand the need to interfere with TCAS particularly in a heavily traveled commercial corridor.

I do. I worked approach in the mid 90s when commuters where responding to RAs that were no factor.

Are you saying it was a danger to fly on the airlines back then?

 

[Turningfinal]

I do. I worked approach in the mid 90s when commuters where responding to RAs that were no factor.

Are you saying it was a danger to fly on the airlines back then?

TCAS equipment and software mandates have evolved significantly since the mid 90s.

Regardless, the NAS with the advent of TCAS is significantly safer today, even with higher levels of activity, than it was in the pre-TCAS days.

Interfering with a very successful safety system that has saved thousands of lives since its inception doesn't really sit well with me.

 

[Velocity173]

TCAS equipment and software mandates have evolved significantly since the mid 90s.

Regardless, the NAS with the advent of TCAS is significantly safer today, even with higher levels of activity, than it was in the pre-TCAS days.

Interfering with a very successful safety system that has saved thousands of lives since its inception doesn't really sit well with me.

No doubt, but that doesn't mean we can't function without it for a limited area and limited time frame. Our lives aren't in an unreasonable amount of danger.

If the DOD has put out a last minute NOTAM on a test of this nature, you can bet they've got a pretty good reason for it in the interest of national security. Considering without them we wouldn't have GPS, I can cut them some slack in this case.

 

[Bob Noel]

Do people understand that the military might be transmitting on 1030/1090 without any intent to interfere with civilian systems (e.g., jam)?

 

[narchee]

Do people understand that the military might be transmitting on 1030/1090 without any intent to interfere with civilian systems (e.g., jam)?

Shh! You're interrupting a nicely developing conspiracy theory! Don't bring reason and logic into this discussion!

Our own military is targeting us. I'm surprised someone hasn't blamed you-know-who yet.

 

[flyingron]

Oh well, guess I'll have to break out the old Zaon PCAS.

Anyone want to buy that sucker? I'm not using it.

If they're jamming 1030 your Zaon (I've got one too) isn't going to be worth a plug nickel either.

 

[James331]

No doubt, but that doesn't mean we can't function without it for a limited area and limited time frame. Our lives aren't in an unreasonable amount of danger.

If the DOD has put out a last minute NOTAM on a test of this nature, you can bet they've got a pretty good reason for it in the interest of national security. Considering without them we wouldn't have GPS, I can cut them some slack in this case.

Yeah, because they have a good reason in the interest of "national security" for all the F'd up stuff they do


I get a kick out of some folks, you say on the site that ADSB isn't needed or that important, just look out the window and see and avoid, our old system worked just fine, and heaps of people argue with you, say how it's super important, how just last weekend it saved them something they wouldn't have seen, etc, etc. Now our government decides to jam a few states worth of ADSB and the same mindless little drones say "oh, well if it's for national security"


Which one is it?

How about this, if ADSB is so unimportant that our government feels they can jam a few states worth of it, why am I being forced to spend my money upgrading to it, ether the government is putting lives at risk, or ADSB shouldn't be mandatory.



So what say you... is ADSB just a pointless system being forced on us, or does our government/military not care about the safety of Americans?

 

[narchee]

So what say you... is ADSB just a pointless system being forced on us, or does our government/military not care about the safety of Americans?

Well given those two choices, I'm going to go with our government/military flat out declaring war on us!!!!! We need to MOBILIZE and FIGHT BACK!!!!!

 

[James331]

Well given those two choices, I'm going to go with our government/military flat out declaring war on us!!!!! We need to MOBILIZE and FIGHT BACK!!!!!

Yeah, more like they just don't give a chit.

But tell me where I'm wrong, it seems quite clear, ether the ADSB system isn't that important, or our government is putting US lives at risk?

 

[bullwinkle]

Do people understand that the military might be transmitting on 1030/1090 without any intent to interfere with civilian systems (e.g., jam)?

Then they should pick a different freq range. One not dedicated to aircraft safety.

 

[docmirror]

I think some folks are injecting a 'vast, right wing conspiracy' or some nefarious evil take-over by the armed forces a-la recent mil exercises in the the SW. I guess I contributed to it maybe with my rather guarded message. So, I will say now that I don't think this is some kind of marshal law cabal at work, more accurately I think they are doing it because they can.

Because they don't give one wet, dribbly, shyte about a few Cessna commandos flying around on weekends below 18k alt and outside of class B. They don't care about your safety! Sacrifices have to be made for the greater good mister, and you will just suck it up and not complain. And if you DO decide to complain, well understand this, that we are the military/industrial complex and if we want to make it HARD on you -- just go ahead and complain. See how that goes.

The meeting prolly went something like this.

Boeing/LM/Raytheon rep: "We've got this hot little digital scrambler that can fake locations in the new ADS-B/TIS system, and we are just DYING to try it out in the national airspace! It could show no plane where a plane really is, and it could show a 100 planes where there aren't any! Woohoo!"

Generals/Admirals: "Oh boy, we got to get us some of that! think of how we could dupe enemies with this tech. Show us how it works."

B/LM/R: "Well, to really show it off, we need to turn it on in a live situation, and er - well, um, this will completely disrupt and invalidate all the ground based traffic info sent to planes flying around. So -- well, it's gonna be messy for all the planes around the transmitted area."

Gen/Adm: "Yeah - so? **** em! Whiney little plane ******* will just have to deal. We'll just TELL the FAA that it's gonna happen and they can send out a notice. If it causes a few crashes or near miss, that's a risk that I am willing to take. Oh - Military planes won't be affected, right?"

B/LM/R: "Well, sir, we could shut it off when your planes are in the air."

Gen/Adm: "Perfect. Set it up, and lets see how it works. I'll tell the FAA when you're ready. I figure a couple months over the southeast US should do it. Now, lets go get some lobster and steak. I could use a good stiff bourbon."

B/LM/R: "Right this way general, we've got a table waiting and our treat, of course."

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Kanye will straighten this out when he is elected in 2020.

 

[docmirror]

fashizzle

 

[Bob Noel]

Then they should pick a different freq range. One not dedicated to aircraft safety.

Think about it for more than a second. What systems would the military use that transmit/receive on 1030 and1090?

Or do you not understand that the military uses IFF systems?

 

[Turningfinal]

Think about it for more than a second. What systems would the military use that transmit/receive on 1030 and1090?

Or do you not understand that the military uses IFF systems?

And what legitimate reason would they have to interfere with civilian TCAS systems over CONUS?

There's plenty of other areas of the world, that aren't heavily traveled commercial air corridors, where they can play with their toys.

 

[bullwinkle]

If we allow TCAS and ADS-B to function as designed, then the terrorists have won.

 

[bullwinkle]

Think about it for more than a second. What systems would the military use that transmit/receive on 1030 and1090?

Or do you not understand that the military uses IFF systems?

Well golly, I guess that IFF just kills all other use of the those freqs in a multistate area every time they turn it on, right?

Get real. This is not some normal use of IFF.

If they want to play military IFF jamming games, do it somewhere where it's not going to put civilians in danger. Or pay us all military hazard pay for our "participation". Either way.

 

[Bob Noel]

ya'll just keep MSU.

Does the NOTAM say anything about jamming?

 

[kabluie]

Well, if the GPS is turned off we'll have to go back to Sectionals and old style navigation. If the ADS-B is jammed we'll have to look outside to see what's going on. No problem.

 

[Turningfinal]

ya'll just keep MSU.

Does the NOTAM say anything about jamming?

PILOTS ARE ADVISED THAT THE TRAFFIC ALERT AND COLLISION AVOIDANCE SYSTEM (TCAS) MAY FAIL TO ESTABLISH TRACKS ON NEARBY AIRCRAFT AND MAY FAIL TO RECEIVE TRAFFIC ALERTS (TA) AND/OR RESOLUTION ADVISORIES (RA).

To me it doesn't matter if its intentional jamming or interference. It's deliberately putting safety at risk for non-participating aircraft.

 

[bullwinkle]

ya'll just keep MSU.

Does the NOTAM say anything about jamming?

Nope. But if it's interfering with other devices, it's transmitting. If it's transmitting on 1030/1090, it's probably related to TCAS/ADS-B/IFF or some other ID tech.

There could certainly be some other device or technology working on those frequencies. But localized jamming or interference that has the potential to leak out in the specified area and cause interference is a pretty good speculative guess.

And as noted above, whatever the intent, the *result* is effectively jamming of ADS-B and TCAS.

 

[Velocity173]

Yeah, because they have a good reason in the interest of "national security" for all the F'd up stuff they do


I get a kick out of some folks, you say on the site that ADSB isn't needed or that important, just look out the window and see and avoid, our old system worked just fine, and heaps of people argue with you, say how it's super important, how just last weekend it saved them something they wouldn't have seen, etc, etc. Now our government decides to jam a few states worth of ADSB and the same mindless little drones say "oh, well if it's for national security"


Which one is it?

How about this, if ADSB is so unimportant that our government feels they can jam a few states worth of it, why am I being forced to spend my money upgrading to it, ether the government is putting lives at risk, or ADSB shouldn't be mandatory.



So what say you... is ADSB just a pointless system being forced on us, or does our government/military not care about the safety of Americans?

Tin foil at its best. Wouldn't expect anything less from a lot of people on POA. We should all be dead from Ebola by now.

You even read the NOTAM? Service "may" become unreliable. Might be that it doesn't affect our TCAS or ADS-B at all. If it does, it's called looking out the window or using something called ATC radar. I suppose you never would have flown on the airlines or gotten your certificate prior to the tech we have today. Planes must have been falling out of the sky left and right 20 + years ago.

What do you think happens when ATC radar goes down for maintenance? In some cases if center doesn't pick it up, you get non radar procedures. The sky isn't falling, they're just using a backup system to the primary (radar) system in the NAS. It's not optimal, but it doesn't endanger lives either.

Did you think maybe the testing might be looking for security vulnerabilities? Vulnerabilities that affect us all and not just the military.

It amazes me your disdain for the military when probably the greatest advance in navigation (GPS) was created by them and provided to us. Some of the medical items your crew uses never would have been invented without the military. But hey don't worry about that, it's easier just to bad mouth an organization you were never part of.

 

[Sundancer]

GPS is completely different animal than TCAS.

No Kidding? Which is why I made the distinction. . . geez. . .

What's your scenario? Some low-wit flag/star level officer woke up yesterday and decided it'd be fun to muck about on these freqs?

That the need to do so, and the method, wasn't looked at by a bunch of stakeholders, like DoD and FAA, and none of them would have cared a rat's butt about the risks anyway?

My subjective opinion is TCAS could evaporate for a year, and there MIGHT not be a single mid-air anyway; and that the long odds of testing for a month, in an area with great radar coverage, would not significantly increase risks.

Read carefully - significant is the operant word. Maybe you'd prefer a prohibition on VFR flight for the affected area, for the affected period? Then a lot more of us would be raising h*ll over that, for sure.

Maybe, just maybe, the geo area was selected with some thought given to the needs of the testing, and the impact on the air travel system?

If you're gonna get your knickers in a bunch over a possible TCAS degradation, in a defined area, for a limited time, I submit your risk tolerance threshold is better suited to walks in the park than GA flying.

 

[wsuffa]

Sigh.

There are long-standing GPS notams in various parts of the country that pop up on a regular basis.

If it's affecting TCAS but not the FAA's ability to query and see transponders, it's probably a signal on the ground on 1090 - if it were 1030, it would block the interrogation, if it were in the air on 1090 it would block the reply to FAA ground station. Just blocking 1090 in airborne receivers is enough to cause issues with ADS-B, too.

Probably some kind of wide-are EW testing or training exercises.

BTW, IFF has caused issues for 30+ years. Look at where Little Creek is located in relation to the ORF runways. Now think about what might happen if someone at Little Creek left IFF turned on....

 

[Velocity173]

Could be they're working on a way to prevent more of this.
http://theaviationist.com/2015/08/24/bad-operations-security-over-syria-iraq/

Of course a simple phone call to Flightradar24 would stop it right away. Either way, whatever they're working on, won't have much of an impact on our day to day flying on the east coast.

 

[petrolero]

How about this, if ADSB is so unimportant that our government feels they can jam a few states worth of it, why am I being forced to spend my money upgrading to it, ether the government is putting lives at risk, or ADSB shouldn't be mandatory.

ADS-B isn't mandatory. Yet.

Many aircraft aren't even equipped yet.

That said, this outage still does degrade safety and either that NOTAM is WAY overbroad or the military is doing something it does not need to be doing.

 

[N801BH]

I think some folks are injecting a 'vast, right wing conspiracy' or some nefarious evil take-over by the armed forces a-la recent mil exercises in the the SW. I guess I contributed to it maybe with my rather guarded message. So, I will say now that I don't think this is some kind of marshal law cabal at work, more accurately I think they are doing it because they can.

Because they don't give one wet, dribbly, shyte about a few Cessna commandos flying around on weekends below 18k alt and outside of class B. They don't care about your safety! Sacrifices have to be made for the greater good mister, and you will just suck it up and not complain. And if you DO decide to complain, well understand this, that we are the military/industrial complex and if we want to make it HARD on you -- just go ahead and complain. See how that goes.

The meeting prolly went something like this.

Boeing/LM/Raytheon rep: "We've got this hot little digital scrambler that can fake locations in the new ADS-B/TIS system, and we are just DYING to try it out in the national airspace! It could show no plane where a plane really is, and it could show a 100 planes where there aren't any! Woohoo!"

Generals/Admirals: "Oh boy, we got to get us some of that! think of how we could dupe enemies with this tech. Show us how it works."

B/LM/R: "Well, to really show it off, we need to turn it on in a live situation, and er - well, um, this will completely disrupt and invalidate all the ground based traffic info sent to planes flying around. So -- well, it's gonna be messy for all the planes around the transmitted area."

Gen/Adm: "Yeah - so? **** em! Whiney little plane ******* will just have to deal. We'll just TELL the FAA that it's gonna happen and they can send out a notice. If it causes a few crashes or near miss, that's a risk that I am willing to take. Oh - Military planes won't be affected, right?"

B/LM/R: "Well, sir, we could shut it off when your planes are in the air."

Gen/Adm: "Perfect. Set it up, and lets see how it works. I'll tell the FAA when you're ready. I figure a couple months over the southeast US should do it. Now, lets go get some lobster and steak. I could use a good stiff bourbon."

B/LM/R: "Right this way general, we've got a table waiting and our treat, of course."

\

I have 5 bucks on that is EXACTLY what took place too......