PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
The FAA softening process has begun, I hope Bruce can help him. I'd send the guy a note and tell him to lose the hard headedness.
"Mild ADD"
- Thread starter mscard88
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The FAA softening process has begun, I hope Bruce can help him. I'd send the guy a note and tell him to lose the hard headedness.
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
I suggested Dr Chien's before he submitted what he did. Yeah, hopefully Bruce can give him what his chance is, if any.
azure
Final Approach
The basis for enforcement action being what? Did he have the diagnosis back in 1988 but failed to report it on the 8500-8?
Yes, if that was his last medical it is too far back for BasicMed, and the denial locks him out of BasicMed anyway, same as Sport Pilot. If they really are really pursuing enforcement action then it sounds as if Bruce might be his only hope... if there is any.
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
The basis for enforcement action being what? Did he have the diagnosis back in 1988 but failed to report it on the 8500-8?
Yes, if that was his last medical it is too far back for BasicMed, and the denial locks him out of BasicMed anyway, same as Sport Pilot. If they really are really pursuing enforcement action then it sounds as if Bruce might be his only hope... if there is any.
That's all the letter said azure, "consideration of legal enforcement action". Could be just a review of his file or something else I suppose.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Sorry to hear he didn’t make it. At least for this go around. But I think that was a forgone conclusion with him going it alone and allowing a Doc to write whatever he wanted to write.
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
Yep. He showed me his Doc's letter, all sealed up. I thought, hmm, doesn't look too good. Tried to send him to Bruce, and have again so we'll see.
CC268
Final Approach
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CC268
Yea seriously...seems incredibly silly to hold someone up over “mild ADD”
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
Is that like a little herpes.
denverpilot
Tied Down
The sad part is — try finding any hard evidence that he’d be any sort of danger to anyone when flying. You will not find it.
In the IT world we have all sorts of people diagnosed with things that would make AeroMedical cry. ADD in particular is really common in software coders.
But when they’re in “hyper focus” mode, look out. They can get things done and done right.
Just don’t bore them to death with meetings. That’ll lead to problems.
Same with the mild Asperger’s cases. Meetings can become rather entertaining with them in the room. Hahaha.
We have one guy who can be difficult due to this sort of thing at the office and his kid also has some developmental issues from the same types of things. I’ve never seen a more dedicated dad trying to help a kid and one who’ll fight the school system tooth and nail for reasonable accommodations for his boy.
He also just sighs and heads out when the kid gets into a fight or otherwise acts up beyond what the school system can bear. The company is great about helping him with flexible time to deal with his lot in life. He always puts in more hours than necessary to make up for it.
Any kid would be luckily to have that guy as their dad. I know he can’t afford it or would even try, and I bet he’d be quite a challenge to teach to fly, but if he caught on and learned how somehow, he’d know more about flying than anyone in the room, and would be an incredibly conscientious pilot.
It’s just his coping mechanism for his oddities. He busts his butt writing code and digs in to understand even the smallest details. Perfect job for him.
In the IT world we have all sorts of people diagnosed with things that would make AeroMedical cry. ADD in particular is really common in software coders.
But when they’re in “hyper focus” mode, look out. They can get things done and done right.
Just don’t bore them to death with meetings. That’ll lead to problems.
Same with the mild Asperger’s cases. Meetings can become rather entertaining with them in the room. Hahaha.
We have one guy who can be difficult due to this sort of thing at the office and his kid also has some developmental issues from the same types of things. I’ve never seen a more dedicated dad trying to help a kid and one who’ll fight the school system tooth and nail for reasonable accommodations for his boy.
He also just sighs and heads out when the kid gets into a fight or otherwise acts up beyond what the school system can bear. The company is great about helping him with flexible time to deal with his lot in life. He always puts in more hours than necessary to make up for it.
Any kid would be luckily to have that guy as their dad. I know he can’t afford it or would even try, and I bet he’d be quite a challenge to teach to fly, but if he caught on and learned how somehow, he’d know more about flying than anyone in the room, and would be an incredibly conscientious pilot.
It’s just his coping mechanism for his oddities. He busts his butt writing code and digs in to understand even the smallest details. Perfect job for him.
biplanebob
Pre-takeoff checklist
read the biographies of some of the pioneers in the aviation industry.... by today's FAA standards, they probably would not qualify for a medical certificate. Sigh
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
Student called the FAA this morning, and because he's on an anti-depressant (forget the name) he is forbidden to hold any medical, including Basic Med. He said he'll talk to his physician to see if something else can be used that would meet FAA approval, his Dr being non aviation though. I again suggested Dr Chien for a consult at least, and he says he will after he talks to his Doc. Feel bad, flys very well and I'd solo him today if he had a medical. Plus he bought a sport plane awhile back that he may not get to ever fly.
azure
Final Approach
I don't think they can forbid him to hold a BasicMed medical on that basis. But if he's applied for a 3rd class and they've denied him, then the point is moot. And if his last medical was 30 years ago, it's moot as well.
Very sad about the sport plane. Yes, until he gets issued at least a SI, he can't fly light sport either.
DaleB
Final Approach
This is why I tell prospective and new student pilots... DO NOT apply for a medical certificate unless and until you KNOW for absolute certain that you'll pass. Period. Make an appointment with an AME for a consultation, but don't ever start the application process until the outcome is known for certain. There are way too many things that the average person is surprised to hear will get you denied, and as your guy just found out -- if you get denied, you're well and completely screwed.
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
I don't think they can forbid him to hold a BasicMed medical on that basis. But if he's applied for a 3rd class and they've denied him, then the point is moot. And if his last medical was 30 years ago, it's moot as well.
Very sad about the sport plane. Yes, until he gets issued at least a SI, he can't fly light sport either.
Yeah I dunno, they (FAA) told him no dice on ANY medical.
DaleB
Final Approach
Correct. Once he's been denied it locks him out of Sport Pilot, Basic Med, all of it unless and until he can get an SI.
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
Mark,
You should print out that sticky on medicals and give it to all your new students, or at least give them the link. I think all CFIs should do this, not saying this is your fault, you tried, sounds like this guy just doesn't listen. Years ago, when I went for my first medical, I asked my CFI what it was all about, he told me that as long as I didn't have any heart issues you'll be fine, another CFI was there at the time and said "as long as you have a pulse you are good", I went in and had no problems, but obviously that info wasn't true.
You should print out that sticky on medicals and give it to all your new students, or at least give them the link. I think all CFIs should do this, not saying this is your fault, you tried, sounds like this guy just doesn't listen. Years ago, when I went for my first medical, I asked my CFI what it was all about, he told me that as long as I didn't have any heart issues you'll be fine, another CFI was there at the time and said "as long as you have a pulse you are good", I went in and had no problems, but obviously that info wasn't true.
You gave him the information he needed, but he didn't want to hear it. I just don't get it. You have a passion for something, want to do it for the rest of your life, and have spent tens of thousands of dollars towards that dream already. BUT-- there is a process you *must* go through, or else you risk losing the ability to pursue that passion for the rest of your life. It may take several months, some money, and hard work. But so many choose to "wing it" and not heed the advice they have been given. It is crazy.
To be fair, I went into the medical thinking it was just an eye and blood pressure check. No one warned me. That happens in a lot of cases. But to those who have been told, no excuse.
To be fair, I went into the medical thinking it was just an eye and blood pressure check. No one warned me. That happens in a lot of cases. But to those who have been told, no excuse.
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
I actually need to do that Paul. In this case I pick him up after other CFIs had him as a student and the process had begun.
azblackbird
Pattern Altitude
The .gov can't take any chances that he might flip out and and drive an airplane into a building. Sad but true due to the nanny environment we now live in.
midcap
Pattern Altitude
The .gov can't take any chances that he might flip out and and drive an airplane into a building. Sad but true due to the nanny environment we now live in.
The .gov can't take any chances that he might flip out and and drive an airplane into a building. Sad but true due to the nanny environment we now live in.
Yep...because no one breaks laws either.
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe
Touchdown! Greaser!
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Light and Sporty Guy
Yea. That happens a lot.
That's why denial is the only approved treatment for mental health issues.
Sure as hell they can. Mental health that rise to the level of personality disorder manifested by overt acts are one of the MUST GO THROUGH SI AT LEAST ONCE for basic med.I don't think they can forbid him to hold a BasicMed medical on that basis. But if he's applied for a 3rd class and they've denied him, then the point is moot. And if his last medical was 30 years ago, it's moot as well.
Very sad about the sport plane. Yes, until he gets issued at least a SI, he can't fly light sport either.
PeterNSteinmetz
Ejection Handle Pulled
He could start learning to fly in gliders in the meantime, so long as he can self-certify that he is safe.
Teaches the basics very well I think and soaring can be quite challenging.
PeterNSteinmetz
Ejection Handle Pulled
The .gov can't take any chances that he might flip out and and drive an airplane into a building. Sad but true due to the nanny environment we now live in.
Made worse by the fact that I don’t know there is any evidence that the FAAs medical process and screening predict and thereby prevent people from flipping out and driving airplanes into buildings.
It is mostly a reactive set of rules with little predictive value.
I was so lucky that my GP was retired flight surgeon. He knew everything, knew how to write the letters. Otherwise I'd have a little sailboat on the lake.
denverpilot
Tied Down
Maybe I missed something, but what does FAA have to do with treatment?
I think it was a quip, along the lines of 'If the FAA doesn't approve of your treatment, they ground you.'
bbchien
Touchdown! Greaser!
A guy who disagrees with enforcement action....God help him. Sure sounds “antiauthority”. He’s going to give it up or end up like Martha Stewart.
And he would not be good negotiating in our regulated airspace.
He is not eligible even for Light Sport and if he files a basic med will get “the letter” posted in another string...which lays the legal basis for enforcement.
Sounds like a man used to getting his own way. The FAA will make him miserable. FAA legal even moreso
“You cannot argue with the crown.”
azure
Final Approach
Assumes facts not in evidence. Personality disorder manifested by overt acts? All that was stated in the OP is that he was dx'd with "mild ADD". Then that he's on an anti-depressant. Now I haven't exactly been following this thread closely since then, so maybe something else has come out in the meantime... maybe he got into a bar fight or mouthed off a police officer and got a psych evaluation out of it. But based on what was given at the time, I stand by what I wrote.
And once again, it's totally moot at this point, since he applied for a 3rd and was denied.
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
A guy who disagrees with enforcement action....God help him. Sure sounds “antiauthority”. He’s going to give it up or end up like Martha Stewart.
And he would not be good negotiating in our regulated airspace.
He is not eligible even for Light Sport and if he files a basic med will get “the letter” posted in another string...which lays the legal basis for enforcement.
Sounds like a man used to getting his own way. The FAA will make him miserable. FAA legal even moreso
“You cannot argue with the crown.”
Bruce he has been denied for any type of medical. He's really not a bad person, but you're probably correct in that he's used to getting his way. Last I heard from him he said he's off the medication and might try after 90 days again. I think it's over but can't fault him for being desperate enough to keep trying.
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
So there is stupid trying and there is smart trying. Me thinks this guy is stuck in stupid trying mode.
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
Perhaps, but I can't blame him. He loves flying, so wouldn't you try anything possible too? He has nothing to lose at this point.
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
My point is he is going it alone when he should have an expert guiding him.
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
Agree, but that's his decision.
Mark, if he’s willing to try anything possible, maybe he should try a motor glider. Better gross weight and range than a light sport, and no medical required. Might make a great option for him.
mscard88
Touchdown! Greaser!
Hey he might, who knows. He did ask if I'd still fly with him now and then. Told him I would. Really, he's a nice guy, just wants to fly. 'Shirley' you all can understand that.
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
I get it Mark, what I don't get is he has a big problem, went on his own once to address it, f'd it up, now is on his way to f'ng it up again, probably permanently. It boggles my mind.
PeterNSteinmetz
Ejection Handle Pulled
I believe Martha Stewart was a criminal case from the beginning. Isn’t an FAA enforcement action regulatory? If so, you can fight it as an administrative action (civil) and o the appellate court if needed. Fairly different procedures and downside risks.
Nonetheless, he should definitely be getting expert advice on the medical aspects rather than winging it.
PeterNSteinmetz
Ejection Handle Pulled
He should really try gliding as mentioned above. Might like it.