Midair at FDK (Frederick, MD)

[Henning]

The CFR escapes me, helicopters are supposed to avoid the flow of fixed wing traffic. Not sure what that means as far as granting ROW or what it means when you have an operating tower.

That s the only distinction in law I am aware of as well. For this accident to happen, the traffic flow was not what it should have been. As to why that was, I am unsure. The thing I am sure of is I wouldn't want the right seater in the Cirrus with me in an emergency.

 

[Eagle I]

... The thing I am sure of is I wouldn't want the right seater in the Cirrus with me in an emergency.

Wow, if you meant what I think you meant by that, I've just added another one to my ignore list.

 

[Henning]

Wow, if you meant what I think you meant by that, I've just added another one to my ignore list.

Yep, I do not particularly need screaming panic in my ear.

 

[Gerhardt]

Generally speaking, it means to avoid getting in the way of airplane traffic. Ironically, I have had several towers direct me to join fixed wing traffic. Doesn't seem to be a big deal since that way everyone knows where everyone else is and I don't become a distraction. But most of the time I'm able to just approach well below pattern altitude and land directly at the ramp.

 

[Eagle I]

Yep, I do not particularly need screaming panic in my ear.

Then I hope you fly only solo. Because I would not blame any passenger for screaming in that circumstance. That is just cruel to even make a joke about it.

 

[Pedals2Paddles]

I would be more perplexed if a non-aviation type passenger was NOT screaming after hitting another aircraft and falling out of the sky.

 

[Henning]

Then I hope you fly only solo. Because I would not blame any passenger for screaming in that circumstance. That is just cruel to even make a joke about it.

Oh, yeah, most everyone who flies GA for utility purposes flies solo most of the time.

I don't blame them for screaming, that's their reaction, I just don't want them next to me doing it into the intercom, it doesn't help anything and is distracting.

 

[Eagle I]

Oh, yeah, most everyone who flies GA for utility purposes flies solo most of the time.

I don't blame them for screaming, that's their reaction, I just don't want them next to me doing it into the intercom, it doesn't help anything and is distracting.

So you do fly only solo, always? And if not, do you screen your passengers for potential panic reactions, and then reject or accept them on that basis? Seriously, who knows how any of us would react in that situation? There are plenty of CVR tapes of professional pilots screaming on their way to their deaths. Have a heart, man.

 

[Henning]

So you do fly only solo, always? And if not, do you screen your passengers for potential panic reactions, and then reject or accept them on that basis? Seriously, who knows how any of us would react in that situation? There are plenty of CVR tapes of professional pilots screaming on their way to their deaths. Have a heart, man.

Have a heart for who? Many of us know exactly how we react. Actually very few CVRs have people screaming on their way to their death. The American Eagle Jetstream flight that crashed at Raleigh Durham had my friend yelling "Wrong Foot, Wrong Foot" at the captain just before the crash, thinking and instructing all the way to the ground.

 

[blank]

Many of us know exactly how we react.

Not really unless you have truly believed yourself to be close to death. Like in a plane going down with a missing wing.

 

[ClimbnSink]

Then I hope you fly only solo. Because I would not blame any passenger for screaming in that circumstance. That is just cruel to even make a joke about it.

Henning how dare you joke about someone's right to be pathetic.

 

[Henning]

Not really unless you have truly believed yourself to be close to death. Like in a plane going down with a missing wing.

On multiple occasions, including aircraft. In fact, aircraft have not been my highest speed, highest energy, crashes.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

On multiple occasions, including aircraft. In fact, aircraft have not been my highest speed, highest energy, crashes.

speaking of which.....is your ride outta the shop yet?

 

[Henning]

speaking of which.....is your ride outta the shop yet?

No idea, ain't my ride no more. I didn't follow the salvage auction on it.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

No idea, ain't my ride no more. I didn't follow the salvage auction on it.

kewl....even better deal.

 

[Eagle I]

Hmm, let's recap. Screaming while the plane in which you are a helpless passenger plummets toward the earth ... perfectly human. Constantly "screaming" on the Internet with anonymous people in a bid to get attention ... pricelessly pathetic!

 

[ClimbnSink]

Hmm, let's recap. Screaming while the plane in which you are a helpless passenger plummets toward the earth ... perfectly human. Constantly "screaming" on the Internet with anonymous people in a bid to get attention ... pricelessly pathetic!

You are too accepting of panic as a reasonable reaction to be a safe pilot. Good luck.

 

[Pedals2Paddles]

You are too accepting of panic as a reasonable reaction to be a safe pilot. Good luck.

The passenger was a not a pilot.

 

[JoeSelch]

So you do fly only solo, always? And if not, do you screen your passengers for potential panic reactions, and then reject or accept them on that basis? Seriously, who knows how any of us would react in that situation? There are plenty of CVR tapes of professional pilots screaming on their way to their deaths. Have a heart, man.

Good grief!
It is possible to both have a heart AND prefer not to have a screaming passenger on board during an emergency.

 

[n20junkie]

This has been hands down the worst year of mid airs i can remember.

We are at 3 fatal in 2 months.


That audio is gut wrenching.

I personally believe towers are not a cure to traffic issues. HTO was also an OK airport to land at. Once the tower was in place it became a cluster. People give up all control to a single tower controller instead of everyone looking outside for threats.

We have to learn from all of these, or really bad stuff will happen from know nothing legislators.

 

[n20junkie]

Every one of these incidents sells at least 3 more Cirrus. I think Cessna made a big mistake not incorporating it into the Corvalis redesign. It's so funny how resistant to technology we really are.

Was the cirrus unable to fly in controlled flight or was it a panic reaction?

 

[dans2992]

Was the cirrus unable to fly in controlled flight or was it a panic reaction?

I was wondering the same.

 

[N801BH]

Was the cirrus unable to fly in controlled flight or was it a panic reaction?

My gut feeling is he pulled the laundry out of panic.... Whatever though,, they both survived so it was not a poor decision...IMHO

 

[n20junkie]

It obviously was a solid decision to toss the chute.

But statements eluding to the idea that it was the ONLY way to survive or had it happened in another plane the results would have been much worse, are pure opinion.

Hey, I love chutes. My race car has two, and I toss them the second the car starts trying to swap ends. But I don't think that they are the end all solution. In this case people still died. The chute didn't help that. Maybe we need a way so planes don't run into each other.

Maybe a TCAS that doesn't cost $90,000 and can be easily be put into an small airplane without an inch thick of paperwork from the FAA.

 

[Henning]

Was the cirrus unable to fly in controlled flight or was it a panic reaction?

You mean his pulling the chute? No idea, but I would have pulled as well. You know you have had an impact from below, you have no way to assess the damage, you are still at an altitude where the chute can be effective. The answer to that equation is "Pull", it provides the most solid option.

 

[Henning]

It obviously was a solid decision to toss the chute.

But statements eluding to the idea that it was the ONLY way to survive or had it happened in another plane the results would have been mich worse, are pure opinion.

It's irrelevant. One relies strictly on airframe integrity and luck, the other provides a third factor of a parachute for when airframe integrity or luck run out. No one incident is indicative of the outcome of another, however a parachute on the airframe always has the survival odds in it's favor.

 

[n20junkie]

Its like stating how good the airbags in a car worked, as a motorcycle rider lays there dead...

 

[Jimmy cooper]

Lindbergh jumped out twice using his chute. Would you prefer he had ridden it down? I think the cirrus pilot was very sharp pulling the chute. He and passenger are alive and the airplane may be repairable. Too much hot gas and speculation. Wait for the report. Most of these type accidents happen when one overtakes the other and never sees it which is perfectly understandable in this case. Also usually within the pattern or within ten miles of the airport. Another midair in northern virgina not more than 6 months ago , both planes flown by FAA employees. 4 dead I believe. Never saw each other.

 

[Henning]

Its like stating how good the airbags in a car worked, as a motorcycle rider lays there dead...

Yep, lots of people make the choice of a car over motorcycle over the same observation. Helicopters have very low damage tolerance.

 

[avi8tor4fn]

So which is which? A Cirrus is faster, but the helicopter can stop and hover, and go straight up and straight down...who is considered "less maneuverable"?

Clearly, a helicopter is a lot more maneuverable.

 

[avi8tor4fn]

When was it positively determined that the Cirrus passenger is the voice on the radio? I missed that. Are their any accounts of the interview with the survivors?

 

[dottat]

When was it positively determined that the Cirrus passenger is the voice on the radio? I missed that. Are their any accounts of the interview with the survivors?

There was an account I saw where he (cirrus pax) described the plane nosing over immediately after impact and a terribly quick descent. If you look at the aerial pics on some of the other sites, the cirrus really didn't travel more than a 1000 feet or so before "landing". That's a pretty fast sink rate. I am curious if he lost some elevator control. The nose gear of the cirrus was said to have landed on the roof of a building nearby.

 

[avi8tor4fn]

There was an account I saw where he (cirrus pax) described the plane nosing over immediately after impact and a terribly quick descent. If you look at the aerial pics on some of the other sites, the cirrus really didn't travel more than a 1000 feet or so before "landing". That's a pretty fast sink rate. I am curious if he lost some elevator control. The nose gear of the cirrus was said to have landed on the roof of a building nearby.

OK but how do we know who belongs to that voice we heard on the radio?

 

[N801BH]

There was an account I saw where he (cirrus pax) described the plane nosing over immediately after impact and a terribly quick descent. If you look at the aerial pics on some of the other sites, the cirrus really didn't travel more than a 1000 feet or so before "landing". That's a pretty fast sink rate. I am curious if he lost some elevator control. The nose gear of the cirrus was said to have landed on the roof of a building nearby.

I bet..... The Vegamatic blades of the heli will do that real quick...

 

[Jaybird180]

Kudos for the cirrus pilot to pull at <994 AGL. He didn't have much time to make that decision; it was the right one

 

[Henning]

There was an account I saw where he (cirrus pax) described the plane nosing over immediately after impact and a terribly quick descent. If you look at the aerial pics on some of the other sites, the cirrus really didn't travel more than a 1000 feet or so before "landing". That's a pretty fast sink rate. I am curious if he lost some elevator control. The nose gear of the cirrus was said to have landed on the roof of a building nearby.

By accounts he pulled the chute immediately, so I would not make any assumption as to the controllability of the plane from the flight path. He did what was right for the situation.

 

[tmyers]

Does the Cirus have an auto deploy for the chute in a violent collision?

 

[N801BH]

Does the Cirus have an auto deploy for the chute in a violent collision?

I don't think so........

 

[Henning]

Does the Cirus have an auto deploy for the chute in a violent collision?

No, manual deploy only.

 

[tmyers]

Ok wasn't sure.