Midair at FDK (Frederick, MD)

[RotorDude]

Isn't the mic switch located on the yoke in the Cirrus? Ifso, he would have to reach up and press the button to yell into it. I don't find that likely unless he was flying the plane.

The person pressing the transmit button doesn't have to be the one screaming.

 

[Redbone]

FlightAware seems to be mostly radar based, and radar isn't perfect. I could show you geocoded GPS tracks that match with what I experienced that differ GREATLY from the FlightAware track my aircraft shows.

That's a GREEN chopper - probably a lot harder to spot than you might think, and someone noted before likely into the sun.

The FlightAware track is not accurate enough to use for airport reference then and probably neither is the FlightAware altitude. The R22 came down at the corner of Highland and Monroe and the Cirrus came to rest in a stand of trees just West of Monocacy Boulevard, across from the Beer Distributor, about 300 yards due East of the R22, well inside of the departure end of 23, and that is a VERY tight pattern.

Let's actually set the stage here. It's 3:40 on Thursday Oct 23rd, Daylight Savings Time is still in effect, sunset is at 6:21pm, the sky is clear with some clouds above 4,000', wind is 290 at 10, runway 30 is in use. Two R22 helicopters are left downwind for 30, in tight, inside the departure end of 23. I suspect that one of these helicopters is on base and turning final as he is now looking in the direction of the collision, as is the controller. The sun is still high enough in the sky, and to the South, as not to be a factor for them. The Cirrus is approaching from the South West, it's heading, however, is now almost due East, 090, and this much agrees with FlightAware. The R44 is a big, highly visible dark green Robinson helicopter that has just departed the taxiway Bravo which parallels 30. With 3 men on board, the R44 is still able to perform but is not going to have outstanding climb performance. The R44 turns left crosswind and at this point the sun could be a factor for them as they will be looking to the South. I figure that the R44 then turns left downwind for 30, in tight, at about 1,000MSL, right over the FDK fairgrounds at Highland and Monroe. The Cirrus is coming in fast, with a tailwind component, from the west and the collision occurs. The R44 was in front of Cirrus and could not reasonably be expected to see it approach. The Cirrus was heading due East so the sun was not a factor, the controller was looking due West, with the sun high in the South, again not a factor. The collision occurred at Highland and Monroe, well inside of the departure end of 23 and not anywhere near mid-field for 30. This is not at all where I would be looking for a Cirrus entering left downwind for 30 on a 45. I would be looking right at the 54 mile marker on I70 as seen on page 2. Any pattern for 30 that is inside of I70 is REAL TIGHT! The Cirrus was in so close that if the collision had not occurred the Cirrus would not have been able to make the base to final turn for 30, it would have had to have flown a big 270 degree loop back to make 30.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

I'm not thinking the sun is in the south that time of day....more like westerly.....and getting low....not quite to the ridge line...but low, behind the Cirrus.

He was in tight....but I fly that tight in the Bonanza...and I like being higher than most....it's doable inside I-70 for 30....that's still +1 mile from 30.

 

[Dav8or]

The R22 came down at the corner of Highland and Monroe and the Cirrus came to rest in a stand of trees just West of Monocacy Boulevard, across from the Beer Distributor, about 300 yards due East of the R22, well inside of the departure end of 23, and that is a VERY tight pattern. .... The collision occurred at Highland and Monroe, well inside of the departure end of 23 and not anywhere near mid-field for 30. This is not at all where I would be looking for a Cirrus entering left downwind for 30 on a 45. I would be looking right at the 54 mile marker on I70 as seen on page 2. Any pattern for 30 that is inside of I70 is REAL TIGHT! The Cirrus was in so close that if the collision had not occurred the Cirrus would not have been able to make the base to final turn for 30, it would have had to have flown a big 270 degree loop back to make 30.

You are missing one point. Both aircraft were moving and had inertia. The R44 would have continued forward, so even though it lost it's rotor it's final resting place is not directly below where the collision occurred. The Cirrus also had inertia and two other things the R-44 didn't, wings and parachute. It's final resting place tells us almost nothing about where the collision happened. We have no idea what the Cirrus flight path was.

Regardless, at least from Google Maps, if the Cirrus was turning downwind when the collision occurred, that looks on paper to be a perfectly reasonable pattern to me. Perhaps you're one of those guys that flies big ol' B-52 patterns? The pattern that Peddles drew looks reasonable to me.

Maybe more locals could comment, but over all, I think it pointless to try lay blame at this point, unless I guess it makes you feel better for some reason. I know the Cirrus is the usually the obvious villain in the usual internet pilot forum narrative, but let's please not jump to conclusions.

The R44 is a big, highly visible dark green Robinson helicopter that has just departed the taxiway Bravo which parallels 30.

This statement is an oxymoron and kind of shows your biased thinking here. The last thing an R-44 is, is big and highly visible in the pattern. Paint it dark green and in might as well be Wonder Woman's plane, because it is all but invisible from a distance.

 

[Redbone]

I'm not thinking the sun is in the south that time of day....more like westerly.....and getting low....not quite to the ridge line...but low, behind the Cirrus.

He was in tight....but I fly that tight in the Bonanza...and I like being higher than most....it's doable inside I-70 for 30....that's still +1 mile from 30.

The sun was absolutely nowhere near the ridge line (Catoctin Mountain) at 3:40, you have no idea what you are talking about.

According to Google Maps, the corner of Highlands and Monroe is exactly 5000' from the departure end of 30 and the Cirrus was still going East, towards 30. I70 is 6,300 from the approach end of 30. Flying inside of I70 for a left downwind to 30 puts an aircraft in TIGHT, less than a mile, like the helicopters. It can be flown, I've seen 172s do it, but most pilots, like 90%, fly outside of I70 over the quarry and even farther. Almost all pilots maintain 1 mile separation from the runway on downwind and base, well within the plane's glide ratio at 1000'.

Someone needs to look up 43Tango. This aircraft was also approaching the field at 3:40. If it was approaching from the South then I believe that the controller mistook it for 2EchoSierra and gave the wrong plane clearance to land 30. Time to go fly.

 

[Redbone]

You are missing one point. Both aircraft were moving and had inertia. The R44 would have continued forward, so even though it lost it's rotor it's final resting place is not directly below where the collision occurred. The Cirrus also had inertia and two other things the R-44 didn't, wings and parachute. It's final resting place tells us almost nothing about where the collision happened. We have no idea what the Cirrus flight path was.

Nope, the helicopter came straight down, it only took 3 seconds, it's wreckage very closely matches the impact point. The Cirrus continued along it's line of flight for a few hundred yards, bringing it closer to 30 which it most surely would have done faster if not for the collision.

Regardless, at least from Google Maps, if the Cirrus was turning downwind when the collision occurred, that looks on paper to be a perfectly reasonable pattern to me. Perhaps you're one of those guys that flies big ol' B-52 patterns? The pattern that Peddles drew looks reasonable to me.

You have no idea what you are talking about or who you are talking to.

Maybe more locals could comment, but over all, I think it pointless to try lay blame at this point, unless I guess it makes you feel better for some reason. I know the Cirrus is the usually the obvious villain in the usual internet pilot forum narrative, but let's please not jump to conclusions.

Again, you have no idea what you are talking about. I fly with these helicopters everyday, the big green R44 is by far the most visible of the Robinsons at Advance. Trooper 3 is more visible.

This statement is an oxymoron and kind of shows your biased thinking here. The last thing an R-44 is, is big and highly visible in the pattern. Paint it dark green and in might as well be Wonder Woman's plane, because it is all but invisible from a distance.

This is a lot like talking with a 15 year old.

 

[Vance Breese]

I find rotorcraft difficult to see particularly when they are below and lost in the ground clutter.
I often call the tower on the phone during flight planning if the rotorcraft pattern altitude and procedures are not covered in the AFD.

 

[Dav8or]

Nope, the helicopter came straight down, it only took 3 seconds, it's wreckage very closely matches the impact point.

I guess that implies that the helicopter was either hovering, or moving very slowly. I don't know helicopter ops at this airport, is this normal? How fast do they fly the pattern?

You have no idea what you are talking about or who you are talking to.

You're right. I have no idea who I'm talking to. It doesn't matter. I do know I'm talking about traffic patterns at airports. I thought, well maybe I'm wrong and the Google Maps looks bigger than it is or something, so I decided to use the Google Maps distance measuring feature to find out.

It says that the distance from Runway 30 and the corner of Highland and Monroe is 5,090 ft give or take. OK, so I compared that to the pattern I usually fly at my home airport at Byron. We have a 1000' AGL TPA for our runway 30 too. Turns out that I usually fly the pattern at 4800' from the runway on downwind in my Mooney.

I'll admit that the SR-22 is bigger, heavier and faster than my Mooney, but not by a great margin. So, IMO, I think this pattern is reasonable to fly. It may seem tight to you, and that's OK, but lots and lots of us fly this close in and people should be looking for us there. Maybe some SR-22 pilots can chime in and let us know if this distance is reasonable, or crazy.

Again, you have no idea what you are talking about. I fly with these helicopters everyday, the big green R44 is by far the most visible of the Robinsons at Advance. Trooper 3 is more visible.

Again, not buying it. The accident R-44 may be the most visible of the aircraft the flight school has, but in the scheme of aircraft in a traffic pattern, I would not call a dark green R-44 big, or highly visible. Hmmm... dark green on top of dark green landscape... isn't that how the Army hides things? Anyhow, I'm sure this likely has little to do with this accident. Most likely the two aircraft could not see one another for the same reason pretty much all mid-airs happen and why see and avoid is crappy as the only collision avoidance tool, aircraft blind spots.

 

[avi8tor4fn]

The "maintain 1000ft" instruction was for a different helicopter that was just taking off from the grass. The "maintain 1000ft" instruction was not for the accident helicopter.

The Cirrus was instructed to report a midfield left downwind for 30 with three helicopters operating below him. Absent any other altitude instructions, this would constitute 1,300ft since that that is the TPA. Cirrus acknowledged this instruction.

Tower then immediately reported him in sight and instructed him to maintain his current altitude until base. This altitude should have been at least 1,300ft. The collision occurred immediately.

I'm having a hard time picturing the Cirrus being 300 below TPA that far out. Especially since he was at 1600 just prior. And I'm having a hard time picturing the controller not saying something about it if he was. Of course I'm guessing, but it is my best guess based on available facts.

What seems more likely, unfortunately, is the helicopter climbing too high. We now know it was a pilot on a check out flight, not an experienced local pilot or CFI. Which makes climbing too high in an unfamiliar traffic pattern a little more likely. Again, totally guessing.

I don't think it's that clear cut. People do descend on downwind, even if it's not the prudent thing to do. Also, the controller isn't going to say anything about him being lower than TPA because she has no way to know how low he is unless he reports it, which isn't likely. The chopper being too high does seem likely but we have no idea. I hate guessing. I hope something good comes from this.

 

[avi8tor4fn]

I have no problem with reasonable noise abatement as long as it doesn't interfere with safety. For example, if flying right traffic keeps the pattern over the woods instead of a neighborhood, that is great. But if it means compromising safety, too bad. Nobody made you buy the house next to an airport. I shouldn't have to compromise my personal safety because you are too stupid look around before buying a house.

And again, it's not even a consideration issue for the tower. We followed noise abatement and kept to the established traffic patterns BEFORE the tower. The one nice thing about the tower is they threw out the patterns and give you the most expeditious, if not the requested entry to the runway.

 

[Tom-Flying]

I don't think it's that clear cut. People do descend on downwind, even if it's not the prudent thing to do. Also, the controller isn't going to say anything about him being lower than TPA because she has no way to know how low he is unless he reports it, which isn't likely. The chopper being too high does seem likely but we have no idea. I hate guessing. I hope something good comes from this.

What's wrong with descending on down wind? That's how any instructors I had taught it.

 

[avi8tor4fn]

1) From the schematic on page 2, the FlightAware track varies significantly from the SR22's actual track to point of collision. Perhaps the altitude is also off?

2) The collision occurred well inside of the departure end of 23, a VERY close in and tight pattern for an SR22 to be flying. Even most all 172s, much slower planes, fly outside of this, beyond the departure end of 23, for left downwind to 30. Why was the SR22 coming in so close to runway 30 on the downwind? Why didn't the SR22 see the helicopter? These two questions suggest a distraction.

3) The controller had visual contact with the SR22 seconds before the collision, why was the helicopter not spotted at the same time and seen as being too close?

I don't agree. I've flown the downwind for 30 many, many times and never beyond the departure end of 23. Usually well inside although I turn a lot sharper than a Cirrus. Crossing the numbers 23 would put you out one mile on on downwind, which should be plenty for a Cirrus.

 

[avi8tor4fn]

Hmm ....

We are supposed to obtain all available information for a flight, and that would include what the AFD says about the destination.

Some pilots would choose to not fly to a destination if the AFD said it has intensive helicopter training that is not separated from fixed wing traffic except by 300'. At least I would choose to not go there.

It's only 300' if you choose to maintain TPA all the way to base. It's only the left downwind for 30 (right downwind for 12) that takes you right over the airport where the helicopters often practice auto-rotations. All other patterns take you out of the airport boundary on downwind.

 

[weilke]

What's wrong with descending on down wind? That's how any instructors I had taught it.

What happens ? You may end up on top of a helicopter or Champ below you.

 

[Dav8or]

What's wrong with descending on down wind? That's how any instructors I had taught it.

This is news to me too. Do people wait until the base turn to descend? I have always started my descent from the TPA abeam the numbers. I have flown with probably a dozen CFIs and two DPEs and I have never once been criticized, or advised otherwise.

 

[RyanShort1]

I don't think it's that clear cut. People do descend on downwind, even if it's not the prudent thing to do. Also, the controller isn't going to say anything about him being lower than TPA because she has no way to know how low he is unless he reports it, which isn't likely. The chopper being too high does seem likely but we have no idea. I hate guessing. I hope something good comes from this.

From the FAA's own Airplane Flying Handbook on "downwind":
"Pattern altitude should be maintained until abeam the approach end of the landing runway. At this point, power should be reduced and a descent begun."

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

The sun was absolutely nowhere near the ridge line (Catoctin Mountain) at 3:40, you have no idea what you are talking about.

According to Google Maps, the corner of Highlands and Monroe is exactly 5000' from the departure end of 30 and the Cirrus was still going East, towards 30. I70 is 6,300 from the approach end of 30. Flying inside of I70 for a left downwind to 30 puts an aircraft in TIGHT, less than a mile, like the helicopters. It can be flown, I've seen 172s do it, but most pilots, like 90%, fly outside of I70 over the quarry and even farther. Almost all pilots maintain 1 mile separation from the runway on downwind and base, well within the plane's glide ratio at 1000'.

Someone needs to look up 43Tango. This aircraft was also approaching the field at 3:40. If it was approaching from the South then I believe that the controller mistook it for 2EchoSierra and gave the wrong plane clearance to land 30. Time to go fly.

I guess not since....I was out there 30 minutes after the accident.

 

[Tom-Flying]

What happens ? You may end up on top of a helicopter or Champ below you.

Not if you plan your approach and inspect the pattern for traffic. All training materials I have say you start a decent abeam the numbers. All my instructors taught that.

I don't know what was going on in the cockpit but if I'm on downwind and know there are three choppers in my path and I only see two I get out long before I reach them. I wouldn't just accept an instruction to fly level and hope nothing bad happens. If you don't see you can't avoid.

 

[Henning]

Very sad. Makes me wonder if the enjoyment of flying is worth the risk. As I get closer to having a family I'm not sure it is.

That is a choice everyone has to make for themselves. There are many that have come before you that also don't feel it's worth it.

 

[avi8tor4fn]

The collision occurred at Highland and Monroe, well inside of the departure end of 23 and not anywhere near mid-field for 30. This is not at all where I would be looking for a Cirrus entering left downwind for 30 on a 45. I would be looking right at the 54 mile marker on I70 as seen on page 2. Any pattern for 30 that is inside of I70 is REAL TIGHT! The Cirrus was in so close that if the collision had not occurred the Cirrus would not have been able to make the base to final turn for 30, it would have had to have flown a big 270 degree loop back to make 30.

While I agree with the rest of your assessment, again, I strongly disagree with this one. I don't know how tight you fly patterns, or expect others to fly them, but a mile out on the downwind is plenty reasonable and should be no trouble for a Cirrus to turn base and final. Granted, I can't compare my Cherokee 140 but I'll fly that pattern about a 1/2 mile out, well inside I-70, practically mid-field over 5-23. For me, over the numbers 23 is too far out. Anywhere from I-70 to over the airport is exactly where I'd look for traffic on downwind. That said, low wing Cirrus may have been completely blinded to the helicopter if he was ascending steeply from below.

 

[avi8tor4fn]

You have no idea what you are talking about or who you are talking to.

Are you like, royalty or something? Should we address you by your proper title? Me thinks you really need to chill and keep the conversation civil. BTW, I've NEVER flown downwind for 30 as far out as a quarry. That doesn't make me unusual.

 

[Henning]

Ok that is the one I listened two. There is approximately 5 seconds of hard to listen to gory audio of the plane going down.

Thanks.

Wait, it was the dude in the plane under chute screaming?

 

[avi8tor4fn]

What's wrong with descending on down wind? That's how any instructors I had taught it.

Tom, that is my point exactly. It's wrong to assume that anyone remains at pattern altitude, once in the pattern. The controller told him to remain at his altitude but I didn't hear where that altitude was established, or any number given. It's a vague instruction at best.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Wait, it was the dude in the plane under chute screaming?

yup....probably the passenger in the SR22....and the pilot keyed the mic while dealing with the situation.

 

[Tom-Flying]

Tom, that is my point exactly. It's wrong to assume that anyone remains at pattern altitude, once in the pattern. The controller told him to remain at his altitude but I didn't hear where that altitude was established, or any number given. It's a vague instruction at best.

I don't understand why she even gave that instruction. Isn't that outside of her role since the airport doesn't have radar? Is this incorrect?

Once he was sequenced he should be seeing and avoiding.

 

[Redbone]

I guess not since....I was out there 30 minutes after the accident.

Good grief go stick your head outside here in Maryland around 3:30, the SUn is high in the Southern sky, nowhere near the horizon. What drives you to lie on the internet?

 

[Redbone]

I watched them bringing the Cirrus down out of the trees today, it wasn't very far from Highland and Monroe. When a helicopter's main rotor is destroyed, it goes straight down, what forward momentum it has is stopped by the aerodynamic forces exerted on the flailing craft.

I really wish that someone could get the flight path of 43Tango, I think that may be the key here.

 

[kkoran]

I don't understand why she even gave that instruction. Isn't that outside of her role since the airport doesn't have radar? Is this incorrect?

No.

Once he was sequenced he should be seeing and avoiding.

Not quite. He should be looking and avoiding. I think it's safe to assume that, had he seen the helicopter in time to avoid it, he would have done so.

 

[Jim Logajan]

Not quite. He should be looking and avoiding. I think it's safe to assume that, had he seen the helicopter in time to avoid it, he would have done so.

I count 6 people who didn't see anything in time who could have otherwise provided warning or taken action: the 3 in the helicopter, the 2 in the airplane, and 1 in the control tower. I count 0 who wanted it to happen.

 

[Pedals2Paddles]

The tower was VERY strict today. They were on top of visual contacts, denying what would have been OK a few days ago, and flat out telling people to remain clear if he couldn't see them. It was like "wow these guys are no bull**** now." I'm sure a few people were annoyed. I was quite happy. Although it was much quieter here today. A gorgeous Saturday is usually rocking here. It was very quiet. A lot of people having some pause about flying. And ya, no helos.

My CFI and I talked about the incident before heading out. The teaching point was to be where everyone expects you to be. Pattern altitude and wind correction. If you are where you are supposed to be, it will be much easier for other traffic and controllers to see you. The first place everyone looks is where they expect to find you. Be there. I was much more on top of my altitude and course.

And I was much more alert to other traffic.everyone else was too. You could hear it in everyone's voice. Pilots and controllers. You could tell something was wrong if you had no idea something happened.


<< Sent from my mobile device at 0agl >>

 

[Henning]

Every one of these incidents sells at least 3 more Cirrus. I think Cessna made a big mistake not incorporating it into the Corvalis redesign. It's so funny how resistant to technology we really are.

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Every one of these incidents sells at least 3 more Cirrus. I think Cessna made a big mistake not incorporating it into the Corvalis redesign. It's so funny how resistant to technology we really are.

yeah but.....$10K every ten years to repack that thing? meh...I'll take my chances.

 

[Henning]

yeah but.....$10K every ten years to repack that thing? meh...I'll take my chances.

Yeah, I know pilots are cheap as they come, but not all of them are stupid levels of cheap. $1000 a year for a chute is cheaper than operating a twin instead.

 

[Brad Z]

yeah but.....$10K every ten years to repack that thing? meh...I'll take my chances.

There are plenty of folks who spend far more than $1,000 a year for insurance, and the only payout in a situation like this will go to their heirs. Sounds like a good deal in that light.

 

[dmspilot]

Any pattern for 30 that is inside of I70 is REAL TIGHT!

At mid-field downwind for 30, I-70 is 1.1nm from the runway, which is obviously more than the recommended 1/2 mile to 1 mile downwind position. Your assertions are absurd.

 

[Dav8or]

yeah but.....$10K every ten years to repack that thing? meh...I'll take my chances.

How many new plane buyers keep a plane ten years? Most who have that kind of money trade up, or change missions, or just quit flying in that time. I would bet the 10K every 10 years means very little to those that actually buy brand new airplanes.

 

[ClimbnSink]

What's first year depreciation on a cirrus? 10k only matters to us in the cheap seats behind the peanut gallery.

 

[RyanShort1]

Every one of these incidents sells at least 3 more Cirrus. I think Cessna made a big mistake not incorporating it into the Corvalis redesign. It's so funny how resistant to technology we really are.

If I have the choice of a parachute vs. non-parachute plane, I'm going with the 'chute. I flew an Apollo Fox LSA for a while that had a chute and was more comfortable flying it at night than I was the 172s.

Ryan

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

What's first year depreciation on a cirrus? 10k only matters to us in the cheap seats behind the peanut gallery.

rich people....

 

[Pedals2Paddles]

It looks like 30 will be active today. Either this morning or later this afternoon, I will fly a couple loops around and log the GPS course to overlay on a map.