Midair at FDK (Frederick, MD)

Proper Boy said:
WEll like I said helicopters are inherently dangerous and having students buzz around in those deathtraps mixing in with planes sounds like a real bad idea.
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just so ya know....both up front in the R44 were experienced rotorcraft pilots. ;)
 
I'm inclined to think the airplane descended early. Climbing is not a helicopter pilot thing. We don't takeoff and climb for an hour as airplane pilots do.
Pedals2Paddles said:
The "maintain 1000ft" instruction was for a different helicopter that was just taking off from the grass. The "maintain 1000ft" instruction was not for the accident helicopter.

The Cirrus was instructed to report a midfield left downwind for 30 with three helicopters operating below him. Absent any other altitude instructions, this would constitute 1,300ft since that that is the TPA. Cirrus acknowledged this instruction.

Tower then immediately reported him in sight and instructed him to maintain his current altitude until base. This altitude should have been at least 1,300ft. The collision occurred immediately.

I'm having a hard time picturing the Cirrus being 300 below TPA that far out. Especially since he was at 1600 just prior. And I'm having a hard time picturing the controller not saying something about it if he was. Of course I'm guessing, but it is my best guess based on available facts.

What seems more likely, unfortunately, is the helicopter climbing too high. We now know it was a pilot on a check out flight, not an experienced local pilot or CFI. Which makes climbing too high in an unfamiliar traffic pattern a little more likely. Again, totally guessing.
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Proper Boy said:
WEll like I said helicopters are inherently dangerous and having students buzz around in those deathtraps mixing in with planes sounds like a real bad idea.
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Ever flown a helicopter? Or an airplane?:lol:
 
ClimbnSink said:
I'm inclined to think the airplane descended early. Climbing is not a helicopter pilot thing. We don't takeoff and climb for an hour as airplane pilots do.
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The helos typically do a circuit at FDK....and practice auto rotations at the center of the airfield.....so, the helo could have climbed higher than he thought.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
The helos typically do a circuit at FDK....and practice auto rotations at the center of the airfield.....so, the helo could have climbed higher than he thought.
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Autorotations are not normally done until the engine and oil are nice and warm, and since the accident heli had just taken off, odds are it was about to do a powered approach at least for the first few laps.
 
silver-eagle said:
And isn't it about time we cut the PC nonsense and get rid of noise abatements. You're dumb enough to build or buy next to [business de jur] then kiss my butt. I WAS here first and I AM conducting a legal business.
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I've always said that.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
Tower tells Cirrus about three helicopters, Cirrus reports two in sight.

ASK YOURSELF: would you continue, as the Cirrus did, not having the third one in sight, and "hope things work out", or would you exit the pattern until you could locate all traffic visually?

I'll say it again: A Class D airspace TOWER is NOT RESPONSIBLE for separation of traffic in the air -- on the RUNWAY ONLY.
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TangoWhiskey said:
I alleged nothing about this incident. We don't know enough to draw conclusions. But one fact is known (Cirrus had two of three reported targets in sight). I proposed a learning question / scenario for us as a take-away:

I said "Ask yourself...." ; if you didn't see all traffic the tower called out to you, would you continue? Climb and exit the pattern until you could see it?
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Thank you. I benefitted by reading your post.
 
So you bought a cheap house next to an airport. Too bad you couldn't afford a nice neighborhood. Hope your school district is OK.
 
Proper Boy said:
WEll like I said helicopters are inherently dangerous and having students buzz around in those deathtraps mixing in with planes sounds like a real bad idea.
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Go find something productive to do.
 
Out of curiosity Proper, what is it that you would ask for? Which dangerous activities do you want to stop? Flight? Flight over people?
 
if you don't respond to his pokes, he'll get bored and go play in someone else's sandbox. or he'll go write his senator. either way, he'll get bored. please, don't respond.
 
Tragic. Also amazing that 2 people survived a mid-air at 1000'.
 
stratobee said:
This is why ADS-B is going to be a huge safety improvement. I personally can't wait.
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Agree, more technology is better than less technology and a parachute is better than no parachute at all, but none of that is a guarantee. I hope people that detract parachutes and technology understand what we are saying. The "good old days" weren't that good. Technology could have prevented this accident or maybe not, it certainly saved the lives of the occupants of the Cirrus.

Cheers
 
Proper Boy said:
Good suggestion. It is time for me to stop doing nothing. Time for me to help the fight to stop your dangerous activities. We need more laws and regulations to protect us from your right to rain metal on us when your toy malfunctions.
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The only malfunction around here is the one between your ears. Definitely making metal...
 
Proper Boy said:
Good suggestion. It is time for me to stop doing nothing. Time for me to help the fight to stop your dangerous activities. We need more laws and regulations to protect us from your right to rain metal on us when your toy malfunctions.
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Do you drive a vhehicle...in that vehicle do you drink..smoke...text....talk on the phone, change a radio station....Or do you live in a bubble?

Seriously...get a life! Everything...and I mean everything has a risk to self and others... EVERYTHING. A guy dies in his bed sleeping when a cow came through his roof and killed him..So sleeping must be dangerous. Yes flying is dangerous to all those involved and potentially to those not involved. So is driving. How many people are sitting in that coffee shop or daycare minding there own business to find themselves fighting for there lives when a car plows through the glass. You see where I'm going....there are other battles to fight more so than these tiny planes!

Your being irrational!
 
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RE: "Proper Boy"

Please-don-t-feed-the-trolls-atsof-547660_170_186.jpg
 
1) From the schematic on page 2, the FlightAware track varies significantly from the SR22's actual track to point of collision. Perhaps the altitude is also off?

2) The collision occurred well inside of the departure end of 23, a VERY close in and tight pattern for an SR22 to be flying. Even most all 172s, much slower planes, fly outside of this, beyond the departure end of 23, for left downwind to 30. Why was the SR22 coming in so close to runway 30 on the downwind? Why didn't the SR22 see the helicopter? These two questions suggest a distraction.

3) The controller had visual contact with the SR22 seconds before the collision, why was the helicopter not spotted at the same time and seen as being too close?
 
23 is a mile long. That spot is just outside the departure end which suggests that the Cirrus was approx 1 mile to the right of 30 on his downwind. That doesn't sound so tight to me. Ever lose an engine in the pattern? I have and truth be told I dont see a problem with that lateral placement. Altitude IMHO is going to be the biggest answer here.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
All I can say is "parachutes are a great failsafe". You've all seen the Cirrus pictures. The helicopter didn't fare as well.

https://twitter.com/cbsbaltimore/status/525395814932561921/photo/1

DAMN.
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So I was convinced the worst part about this tragic event was the audio.

After this, I think I am going to tell you all the four tail numbers I regularly fly. Should you ever see me involved in an accident like this, I would ask you all to wage a social media war against a news outlet that posts accident pictures with dead bodies spilled out the front as a damn tweet!

I'm 34 yrs old and I cannot even comprehend the value in that twits tweet.
 
Satchmo10th said:
FDK actually does have a standard for helos. To start, FW traffic is about +300' compared to RW.
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Is there any way for fixed wing pilots to learn before flying cross country that the destination airport has intensive helicopter training with the same traffic pattern direction and only 300' of vertical separation in the pattern?

I'd like to know that before flying, but I can't find anything that useful in the AFD for Fredericksburg. Regarding traffic patterns, it says nothing about rotor. Just this: TPA 1000' AGL SINGLE & LIGHT TWINS - 1500' AGL LARGE TWINS.

Edit: just want to make it clear that I'm wondering whether an inadequate AFD could have been a factor for this accident.
 
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NoHeat said:
Edit: just want to make it clear that I'm wondering whether an inadequate AFD could have been a factor for this accident.
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I believe the Cirrus was based there.

Doesn't really matter, you get to an airport, you listen to the CTAF or tower frequency and figure out what is going on. Information in some little green book is really not that relevant.
 
weilke said:
Information in some little green book is really not that relevant.
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Hmm ....

We are supposed to obtain all available information for a flight, and that would include what the AFD says about the destination.

Some pilots would choose to not fly to a destination if the AFD said it has intensive helicopter training that is not separated from fixed wing traffic except by 300'. At least I would choose to not go there.
 
dottat said:
So I was convinced the worst part about this tragic event was the audio.

After this, I think I am going to tell you all the four tail numbers I regularly fly. Should you ever see me involved in an accident like this, I would ask you all to wage a social media war against a news outlet that posts accident pictures with dead bodies spilled out the front as a damn tweet!

I'm 34 yrs old and I cannot even comprehend the value in that twits tweet.
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I don't think anything in that picture is identifiable as a body. There's one thing that _might_ be something, but honestly you can't really tell.
 
NoHeat said:
Hmm ....

We are supposed to obtain all available information for a flight, and that would include what the AFD says about the destination.

Some pilots would choose to not fly to a destination if the AFD said it has intensive helicopter training that is not separated from fixed wing traffic except by 300'. At least I would choose to not go there.
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My point is that the Cirrus was owned by the pilot through his business out of Montgomery county. He was in all likelihood based at FDK, he wouldn't open the AFD to look up whether there is helo traffic if he has been dealing with it for however many years he was flying out of FDK.

I fly out of HEF, similar to FDK we have an active helo school. The traffic flow and geography allow the tower to keep helos on one side, fixed wing pattern the other side and route arrivals and departures with wide base-entries and departures around the beehive. The helos are something to look out for, but shouldn't really be a reason to avoid an airport alltogether.
 
TangoWhiskey said:
RE: "Proper Boy"

Please-don-t-feed-the-trolls-atsof-547660_170_186.jpg
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I think this ramp's american cousin.

I get trolls want to go around and annoy people and have thier fun, but this the wrong thread for him to do this.

So I can only hope that proper boy gets thrown in jail for a night. And gets gang banged by all the other inmates.
 
TommyG said:
I think this ramp's american cousin.

I get trolls want to go around and annoy people and have thier fun, but this the wrong thread for him to do this.

So I can only hope that proper boy gets thrown in jail for a night. And gets gang banged by all the other inmates.
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Your post is far worse then a troll or someone who actually felt what pboy wrote and posted. Stupid silly.
 
weilke said:
I fly out of HEF, similar to FDK we have an active helo school.
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Do they still cut through the traffic pattern at HWY on their way to and from the practice area?
 
Redbone said:
1) From the schematic on page 2, the FlightAware track varies significantly from the SR22's actual track to point of collision. Perhaps the altitude is also off?
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FlightAware seems to be mostly radar based, and radar isn't perfect. I could show you geocoded GPS tracks that match with what I experienced that differ GREATLY from the FlightAware track my aircraft shows.
3) The controller had visual contact with the SR22 seconds before the collision, why was the helicopter not spotted at the same time and seen as being too close?
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That's a GREEN chopper - probably a lot harder to spot than you might think, and someone noted before likely into the sun.
 
NoHeat said:
Hmm ....

We are supposed to obtain all available information for a flight, and that would include what the AFD says about the destination.

Some pilots would choose to not fly to a destination if the AFD said it has intensive helicopter training that is not separated from fixed wing traffic except by 300'. At least I would choose to not go there.
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Sometimes you will find a note about intense flight training in the AFD. In my opinion, worthless since it depends on too many things. Also in the AFD is the traffic pattern expected. You might find a note about helicopters using the opposite side to fixed wing (check KGHG). Still worthless. Looking at what businesses are based at the airport is a clue of the type of activity you might see there but it doesn't help with the type of traffic you could find there. If you want to go there, look it up in the AOPA Airport directory or AIRNAV. If they have a liveatc feed, you could remotely monitor their tower or CTAF. Call the local flight school and talk with one of the instructors. You could also just fly out there and pick up the radio when you're 15 or 20 miles out. You could also make the flight with an instructor. Just because you have your certificate, it does not mean you cannot go with an instructor ever again.
This past weekend, I flew into a pilot controlled airport for breakfast. While setting up for the approach, there were 5 or 6 other planes in various locations in the pattern and on the runway. I chose to wait 5 miles away until things calmed down. Sure, I could have jumped in, mugged my way into the pattern, but it was easier for all for me to step away for a few minutes.
As to helicopter flights, it depends on the airport and local customs. The school I use, often depart and arrive from a taxi intersection. Most of the business helicopters depart from the ramp. Practice approaches are usually done on the inactive runway. Another local airport has all traffic including helicopters use the normal traffic pattern and altitudes including the runways.
The point is, don't let the activity stop you. Use your best judgement as to whether you are up to the challenge. As you said, use all the information available.
 
dottat said:
So I was convinced the worst part about this tragic event was the audio.
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We are a desensitized society.

Fox and Friends segmented out the helicopter pilot screaming to his death on the open mic and broadcast the clip this AM. No humanity.
 
ggroves said:
We are a desensitized society.

Fox and Friends segmented out the helicopter pilot screaming to his death on the open mic and broadcast the clip this AM. No humanity.
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My understanding is that the screamer was the pax of the FW (who survived with minor scratches), not any of the heli occupants.

(I personally feel it's inappropriate to broadcast it nonetheless.)
 
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RotorDude said:
My understanding is that the screamer was the pax of the FW (who survived with minor scratches), not any of the heli occupants.

(I personally feel it's inappropriate to broadcast it nonetheless.)
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Isn't the mic switch located on the yoke in the Cirrus? Ifso, he would have to reach up and press the button to yell into it. I don't find that likely unless he was flying the plane.
 
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