Mid Air 2 fatal

wsuffa said:
You might be surprised. I was doing practice approaches at KHYI one time when there was a fly-in. ATC dropped me when I was on final, but I did have the Garmin 330/Mode S unit showing traffic. The unit lit up and we narrowly missed a guy in an experimental that blew in and cut us off on short final to get on the ground first. I was under the hood, but CFI with me shuddered at the way the other guy approached - I don't think it was the famed overhead break, but who knows.
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Was there any radio contact being used? Usually provides an excellent heads up. Has saved me several times. It's impossible to see and avoid what you are unable to see and avoid, and thats a lot of airspace. Most midairs occur within ten miles of the airport when one aircraft overtakes another, unseen, usually below them.
 
Henning said:
Kinda wonder if it may have been a photo meet up gone wrong.
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The same thought had crossed my mind. According to at least one public post on backcountrypilot.com, they were probably part of a group of three that had flown from Oregon on the way down, so it's plausible that those two at least may have intended to fly back together part of the way, too. (Though I can't imagine the C-170 slowing down for too long to keep pace with a Savannah.)

For the most part, the flight videos that chosstronaut took were scenery with forward looking cameras. I've only seen a couple instances where he shot videos of other aircraft he flew with:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-wusBQvXcqU&t=240

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1zQebhrOGg&t=353
 
Henning said:
Sounds like a pattern etiquette violation.
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Sounds like an uncontrolled airfield. Wasn't there a thread here recently where people were asking about when to turn crosswind? Past the end of the runway, or not? Weren't some people saying they turn as soon as they can, and some planes climb faster than others so they have to and... blah, blah, blah?

Whatever we do, let's not try to establish a standard. Lets not have everyone do the same thing, it stifles freedom. Rules and regulations are killing America. We must preserve the right to a sudden accidental death for all.
 
Dav8or said:
Sounds like an uncontrolled airfield. Wasn't there a thread here recently where people were asking about when to turn crosswind? Past the end of the runway, or not? Weren't some people saying they turn as soon as they can, and some planes climb faster than others so they have to and... blah, blah, blah?

Whatever we do, let's not try to establish a standard. Lets not have everyone do the same thing, it stifles freedom. Rules and regulations are killing America. We must preserve the right to a sudden accidental death for all.
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Not just preserve the right, we should be encouraging it.
 
Wow, the guy in the Savanna unwittingly made himself a guided ground to air missile. :nonod:

How it's supposed to be done according to Flying Magazine:

A straight-out departure in fact, is one of the recommended ways of departing a non-towered airport. You might also make a 45-degree turn toward the crosswind leg (usually a left turn) after climbing above pattern altitude, and you can also make a turn opposite the crosswind leg (i.e. a right turn at an airport with a left-hand traffic pattern) – but make sure you perform this non-standard maneuver only after climbing at least 500 feet above pattern altitude.
 
It wasn't an airport. It was a bunch of friends flying off a patch of dirt. Did you guys follow all the automobile rules riding dirt bikes in the woods? Same thing only with more expensive toys.
PS rules won't save you, stay home if you are scared.
 
I don't know how this accident became a reality but, even if both aircraft had full ADS-B rigs, the FAA had operating ground stations covering that area and each pilot was aware that the collision was about to happen, it probably still would have. We may never get the necessary detail to explain what happened but the fact remains that one or both pilots did not do what was necessary to prevent it. We can all offer our RIP's to the victims and their families but after that the pilot community needs to understand what caused this and react with training, guidance for fly-in Ops and sufficient monitoring to preclude its' repetition.

It is easy to say that air to air's happen infrequently enough that a single incident isn't significant enough to merit a great deal of concern. However, It may also have been that a simple little VHF radio communication could also have prevented this accident. Or maybe even pre-established single aircraft entry/ exit procedures would have been sufficient w/o any electronics being involved at all. ADS-B, TCAS, PCAS, GPS, RNAV,.......ad infinitum will not prevent such an occurrence. Only pilots or maybe a pilot with sufficient lead time can be the real solution for this problem. Aha !, with complete automation this mid air would not have happened ! This might be an approach--hmm wonder if that worked for the Korean Airliner in San Francisco ? And, think of what great fun it will be to fly your Drone to the next FLYIN as you turn the steaks on the grill in your back yard ! Hope you have ADS-B and TCAS and whatever all tuned up. But what about the pilot on the other side of town who is burning Chicken in his back yard while his Drone is on the way to the same event ?

Yes, I am against tons of additional equipment as the solution for infrequent accidents which MIGHT have been solved by it. No, I'm not someone who flew just before the Wright Brothers, knows the difference between the smell of a dandelion in Missouri vs. a clover blossom in Kansas, believes that magenta is a medicine for use against syphilis and is a deacon in the church of NORDO. Quite the opposite. I am fascinated with the myriad of equipment and technology available to GA today. I use some of it in my flying and
hope you do too. None of us are likely to have the thrills of being an air mail pilot nearly a century ago, but we also have the responsibility to operate with reason in our heads.
 
Edgefly said:
I don't know how this accident became a reality but, .......... We may never get the necessary detail to explain what happened but the fact remains that one or both pilots did not do what was necessary to prevent it. .....
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The FSDO , FAA and the NTSB are in possession of video of the crash sequence that clearly shows exactly what happened.....

Let's let the investigation play out.....


Sad for the 2 pilots.....:sad::sad::sad:
 
ClimbnSink said:
It wasn't an airport. It was a bunch of friends flying off a patch of dirt. Did you guys follow all the automobile rules riding dirt bikes in the woods? Same thing only with more expensive toys.
PS rules won't save you, stay home if you are scared.
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Actually, from what has been posted here, it was an airport. It had a clearly defined runway with runway direction and thresholds, it had a defined pattern altitude with direction of traffic. I believe they also had a published unicom frequency. Sounds like an airport to me.

I believe that rules, had they been in place and had these guys followed them, would have saved them. However, just like the guys out in the desert on dirt bikes screwing around sometimes people collide and die. Happens all the time at Pismo Beach and here on the water on the California Delta.

Anytime you get a concentration of people in motorized vehicles traveling fast and doing whatever the hell they want, you have a greatly increased risk of collision and death. Many people are scared and stay home. I know lots of people that avoid fly ins for this very reason.
 
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Dav8or said:
Actually, from what has been posted here, it was an airport. It had a clearly defined runway with runway direction and thresholds, it had a defined pattern altitude with direction of traffic. I believe they also had a published unicom frequency. Sounds like an airport to me.

I believe that rules, had then in place and had these guys followed them, would have saved them. However, just like the guys out in the desert on dirt bikes screwing around sometimes people collide and die. Happens all the time at Pismo Beach and here on the water on the California Delta.

Anytime you get a concentration of people in motorized vehicles traveling fast and doing whatever the hell they want, you have a greatly increased risk of collision and death. Many people are scared and stay home. I know lots of people that avoid fly ins for this very reason.
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Yep, people can avoid these events quite simply by staying home, that is an option available to them.
 
I fly in Northern Nevada and was out of the country when this accident happened. I don't read Back Country Flyer's website. Would news of this fly-in event been available from any other source (like when calling for a briefing)? I would like to avoid being over what seems like rural middle-of-nowhere Nevada and finding 100 planes flying into a dry-lake.

I fly into Yerrington every now and then and would certainly not be expecting to see a fly-in on that dry-lake.
 
Again, the concept of a Most Conservative Action comes up.

In this case that would be to follow AIM recommendations for traffic patterns and how to depart from them.

An early turnout may be without consequences 99.9% of the time. So you could expect some pilots to brag they do it all the time without issues, and that worrying about it is a needless concern. But that's still one in a thousand cases where there may be consequences. That may seem a reasonable risk to take, but the law of large numbers would then predict we will have "x" number of planes colliding each year that otherwise would not have.

It sure seems like this accident would not have happened if everyone had flown the recommended pattern. If I'm wrong and the probable cause turns out to be something else, allow me to apologize in advance.
 
bullwinkle said:
And yet the FAA chooses to *not* provide traffic data to all ADS-B users, instead opting to only provide it to those who paid for expensive "out" gear. :(
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I wonder if "60 Minutes" might be interested in this. Why is a federal agency withholding important safety information? I envision ambush interviews, and snarky comments: "You have the blood of innocent children on your hands, Mr. Administrator!"
 
ClimbnSink said:
If you are scared of cowboys stay in the city.
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Well, my wife, a wise woman indeed, has now flown with me several times, since I got my pilot's license, said to me "I do not feel comfortable going to fly ins in non towered airports". She is not a pilot, but realizes you may not be able to see, to be able to avoid. Our aircraft is high wing and does not have a rear view mirror. So I think I'm going to choose to take her advice. I do have TCAS in the cockpit and have gotten warnings on aircraft I have never seen but have been able to avoid thanks to the assistance of the device.

Cheers.
 
For perspective, I was an auto accident investigator for a while.

When its a two vehicle accident, it's not uncommon for one driver to say, "I never saw him!"

Just pointing out life has risks. I would just put forth that the risk at non-towered airports and air shows is quite manageable, especially if everyone follows procedures.
 
FastEddieB said:
For perspective, I was an auto accident investigator for a while.

When its a two vehicle accident, it's not uncommon for one driver to say, "I never saw him!"

Just pointing out life has risks. I would just put forth that the risk at non-towered airports and air shows is quite manageable, especially if everyone follows procedures.
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I agree, but how often do we see people not following the rules? In our crowded Central Florida skies , its not uncommon. I have to admit that, for me, I feel safer if have a second or third pair of eyes looking out to avoid collisions.

Cheers
 
ralarcon said:
Well, my wife, a wise woman indeed, has now flown with me several times, since I got my pilot's license, said to me "I do not feel comfortable going to fly ins in non towered airports". She is not a pilot, but realizes you may not be able to see, to be able to avoid. Our aircraft is high wing and does not have a rear view mirror. So I think I'm going to choose to take her advice. I do have TCAS in the cockpit and have gotten warnings on aircraft I have never seen but have been able to avoid thanks to the assistance of the device.

Cheers.
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You're going to avoid fly ins for fear of a midair?

Let me point out that there fly ins, and there are FLY INS. For example, we do a shrimp boil fly in every Spring on the island. It's all see and avoid, standard uncontrolled field stuff. We usually get over 100 aircraft, and the only issue we've had is parking. We addressed that with marshallers on golf carts -- problem solved.

Then, at the other end of the spectrum, there is Oshkosh, with the easiest, most logical, and highly codified approaches imaginable. Follow the NOTAM (and the railroad tracks), maintain spacing, and it's simplicity itself. Mary and I trade off flying in each year, and have done it many times.

So, which fly in do you think most pilots find to be the most "scary"?

We hear it all the time "Oshkosh is too crazy for me". Yet these same pilots seem to have NO problem flying in for our shrimp boil.

This is false logic. Oshkosh is the easiest fly in, anywhere, with multiple levels of safety and control. THOUSANDS of plane stream in, and out, safely. Yet many, many pilots avoid flying into OSH. Sadly.

Meanwhile, at our shrimp boil fly in, you've got every pattern entry imaginable, no ATC, and yet everyone streams in, and out, safely.

I know where I feel more comfortable: Oshkosh. But I won't avoid going to a small fly in because it is "less safe", any more than I will avoid driving on 2-lane roads because they are riskier.

My point is this: Don't paint all fly-ins with the same brush, and don't avoid all of them for irrational reasons.
 
FastEddieB said:
Again, the concept of a Most Conservative Action comes up.

In this case that would be to follow AIM recommendations for traffic patterns and how to depart from them.

An early turnout may be without consequences 99.9% of the time. So you could expect some pilots to brag they do it all the time without issues, and that worrying about it is a needless concern. But that's still one in a thousand cases where there may be consequences. That may seem a reasonable risk to take, but the law of large numbers would then predict we will have "x" number of planes colliding each year that otherwise would not have.

It sure seems like this accident would not have happened if everyone had flown the recommended pattern. If I'm wrong and the probable cause turns out to be something else, allow me to apologize in advance.
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Thing is, you can't show that those accidents would not have occurred even if the normal pattern protocols are followed since pattern accidents happen even when everyone is following protocol. It is impossible to determine which accidents, if any, could be avoided.
 
I read the most recent NTSB reports as a part of my preflight.
I have been to some fly ins where traffic pattern protocol was not followed consistently.
To ease my trepidation about fly ins I looked up all the midair collisions over the last 20 years on the NTSB site.
I was surprised there weren’t more midair collisions and amazed at how few took place during a fly in.
I still find it disquieting when I feel I need to take evasive action to avoid contact with another aircraft and I don’t hang around VORs.
 
We've had fly-in fatalities two months in a row. If a statistician really took a hard look at this and factored in the extremely small number of flights involved with fly-ins compared to average GA activity in this country, I think it would be clear that there is a much higher incidence of mid-airs at fly-ins.
 
Henning said:
Thing is, you can't show that those accidents would not have occurred even if the normal pattern protocols are followed since pattern accidents happen even when everyone is following protocol. It is impossible to determine which accidents, if any, could be avoided.
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There has GOT to be an error in reasoning there!

I think when the facts are in and the chips are down, we WILL be able to say that this particular accident could have been avoided if both planes had followed procedures.

That's why probable cause gets determined. There's never 100% certainty, but it's just stating it was probable that a given accident was caused by certain factors or actions. It is NOT to say that no other accident may or may not have befallen the pilot(s) had other actions been taken.

If you're saying they still might have come to grief for unrelated causes, that's trivially and uninterestingly true.

I think there is a specific informal logical fallacy in you argument, but I'll have to reflect on it's exact nature.
 
I'm an old timer who hasn't been in a left seat in some 25 years. I'm here only because the pilot in the Savannah was a close relative and I am trying to learn what happened.

Back in my day, when we flew into or out of an uncontrolled airport, we continually announced our position and intentions on the designated frequency. I would think this would be standard procedure at a fly in in particular. Seems like this accident might not have happened if both pilots were talking on the radio.
 
UncleMike said:
I'm an old timer who hasn't been in a left seat in some 25 years. I'm here only because the pilot in the Savannah was a close relative and I am trying to learn what happened.

Back in my day, when we flew into or out of an uncontrolled airport, we continually announced our position and intentions on the designated frequency. I would think this would be standard procedure at a fly in in particular. Seems like this accident might not have happened if both pilots were talking on the radio.
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I suspect you are correct.
 
FastEddieB said:
There has GOT to be an error in reasoning there!

I think when the facts are in and the chips are down, we WILL be able to say that this particular accident could have been avoided if both planes had followed procedures.

That's why probable cause gets determined. There's never 100% certainty, but it's just stating it was probable that a given accident was caused by certain factors or actions. It is NOT to say that no other accident may or may not have befallen the pilot(s) had other actions been taken.

If you're saying they still might have come to grief for unrelated causes, that's trivially and uninterestingly true.

I think there is a specific informal logical fallacy in you argument, but I'll have to reflect on it's exact nature.
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There is nothing illogical about fatalism really, that everything is on a set path through time.
 
UncleMike said:
I'm an old timer who hasn't been in a left seat in some 25 years. I'm here only because the pilot in the Savannah was a close relative and I am trying to learn what happened.

Back in my day, when we flew into or out of an uncontrolled airport, we continually announced our position and intentions on the designated frequency. I would think this would be standard procedure at a fly in in particular. Seems like this accident might not have happened if both pilots were talking on the radio.
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The fly-in did indeed have a frequency. I have no idea if the pilots were using it at the time of the accident.
 
If I'm sitting on the end of the runway ready to take off and I hear a pilot announce that he is on a left downwind, the last thing I am going to do is make a left turn shortly after takeoff.

I'm don't know how well my relative was trained or how many hours he had under his belt, but he only had his license for two years.
 
ralarcon said:
Well, my wife, a wise woman indeed, has now flown with me several times, since I got my pilot's license, said to me "I do not feel comfortable going to fly ins in non towered airports". She is not a pilot, but realizes you may not be able to see, to be able to avoid. Our aircraft is high wing and does not have a rear view mirror. So I think I'm going to choose to take her advice. I do have TCAS in the cockpit and have gotten warnings on aircraft I have never seen but have been able to avoid thanks to the assistance of the device.

Cheers.
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Your wife is a smart woman. The hair stands up on the back of my neck when I'm going to a fly-in. It takes away from the fun a little.
 
I am sure many of us have received instructions to remain clear of a towered field because of the level of traffic at said field. My last was at Nashua which was in the midst of a 99's event. After about 10 minutes burning circles in the sky, the class D tower had enough time and room to accommodate the rest of us.
At a pilot controlled airport, it is up to the PIC to determine what level of activity constitutes airport saturation and execute a plan accordingly. The real problem is general human nature where first you start with "I have a right to do this". We see this attitude everywhere. Sure, you can mug your way in or just stand off for a few minutes. On the plus side, you get to burn a few more minutes flying and practice your standard rate turns.
I'm not scared of fly-ins. I am scared of the idiots who do not follow standard recommended entry nor give way as needed to the guys already there.
 
silver-eagle said:
I am sure many of us have received instructions to remain clear of a towered field because of the level of traffic at said field. My last was at Nashua which was in the midst of a 99's event. After about 10 minutes burning circles in the sky, the class D tower had enough time and room to accommodate the rest of us.
At a pilot controlled airport, it is up to the PIC to determine what level of activity constitutes airport saturation and execute a plan accordingly. The real problem is general human nature where first you start with "I have a right to do this". We see this attitude everywhere. Sure, you can mug your way in or just stand off for a few minutes. On the plus side, you get to burn a few more minutes flying and practice your standard rate turns.
I'm not scared of fly-ins. I am scared of the idiots who do not follow standard recommended entry nor give way as needed to the guys already there.
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I have flown into many, many fly ins, so I have used the circle and wait your turn method too. The problem I have with it is when you have the plane banked in a turn, it's harder to look for traffic. Also, you now are putting your plane in attitudes and positions that no one else is expecting you to be. The place to circle and hold is like 15-20 miles out, but nobody ever does that. They go in for a closer look and then end up circling at like 2-3 miles out.

I usually just "mug my way in" and join the conga line. Find somebody and follow them. I have also simply departed the traffic area and then returned later. Fly the 45 in and if it looks to crazy, turn towards the departure en and fly straight out for say 10 miles then turn and try again. I think it's a little safer than doing little circles near the pattern. However, I don't have all the answers. The arrival at a fly in can be hair raising and anxiety provoking for sure. If you really want to go, but are nervous about it, one can always show up really early, hardly anybody does that.
 
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UncleMike said:
I'm an old timer who hasn't been in a left seat in some 25 years. I'm here only because the pilot in the Savannah was a close relative and I am trying to learn what happened.

Back in my day, when we flew into or out of an uncontrolled airport, we continually announced our position and intentions on the designated frequency. I would think this would be standard procedure at a fly in in particular. Seems like this accident might not have happened if both pilots were talking on the radio.
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Well I can tell you that my father was the one in the C-170 and was also my CFI. I can tell you that I know without a doubt that he was talking on the radio as I have over 2,000 duel hours with him where radio communication was his biggest concern. He would always radio where we were in a pattern even if we were in the middle of Wyoming coming home from a cross country flight.

I also want to point out that we had access to a super cub without radio equipment. My Dad immediately bought a handheld radio that we could plug headsets into so we could fly with a radio. My father never missed a radio call within 20 miles of an airport. Even if we were 2,000+ above the traffic pattern on flight following I was trained to switch to UNICOM for that airport and announce I was flying over.
 
Wonder why they call it midair?
 
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