Mid Air 2 fatal

May they rest in peace.
 
I hate this kind of crap. RIP fellow aviators. Fly ins are an elevated risk for sure, but at the same time they really make flying worthwhile for many.

I say we can't get affordable accurate traffic info into the cockpit fast enough! Now we can hear all the crap about the "Mark I Eyeball" and how see and avoid is just fine, with no need for changes at all. Oh yeah, and how all these new pilots are too busy watching TV and following the magenta line. That and lets not forget how horrible a standard traffic pattern with standard entries is! Radio use is just a crutch and really doesn't do anything. :rolleyes::mad2:

I say see and avoid by itself is crap given the wild west that is the uncontrolled field!!:mad::yes:
 
Sure Dave electronics will save you. Just ask your phone. That said these wild bush pilots had a catered breakfast at their remote fly in I doubt any of them lacked gizmos.
 
The pilots who died were Thomas Weiss of Roseburg, Oregon and Tyler Adams of Corvallis, Oregon. Some background on both men:

"Weiss had served the past 12 years at the rank of Captain/Paramedic with WDFD. Department officials say he had a passion for flying and had been flying aircraft for more than 34 years. During his off-duty time, he flew a spotter plane for the Douglas Forest Protection Association (DFPA) for the past three fire seasons."

http://www.kpic.com/news/local/Wins...-after-plane-crashes-in-Nevada-279053011.html

"Tyler Adams and Steve Elder established one of the hardest alpine routes in Oregon over a 14-hour push on March 22."
http://www.alpinist.com/doc/web14w/newswire-adams-elder-thielsen

I note that Tom Weiss, with his son, had been a witness to the mid air fatal last year at Johnson Creek in Idaho:
http://www.thedalleschronicle.com/news/2013/jul/05/pilot-midair-crash-came-without-warning/

Tyler, who is better known by his online handle chosstronaut, was in his twenties and only had his pilot license a couple years but managed to pack a lot of flying adventures into that time, producing some interesting videos:
http://www.youtube.com/user/chosstronaut
 
RIP

Looks like a violent mid-air. Planes came to rest entangled.

With the tech we have today, there's no reason a flying machine can't have some kind of proximity warning device to other aircraft, on that I agree. Will it stop this kind of thing? I doubt it. Flying is flying for lack of stupider words. **** happens and it's going to happen when men and machines go fast. The only consolation when these things happen is that they most likely did die doing what they loved to do. :(
 
Too close to home. I am in Europe right now but saw the link on the OP's post - Seeing rgj, I was afraid to click on it, thinking I must know at least one of them, but alas they were from out of the area. I had not heard of this event.... :(
 
I wonder how far from the dry lake bed or runway they were at the time of the crash? Was it near the pattern or more enroute? I assume there was no planned formation flight involved?

Just an idea, but many of the slowest bugsmashers operate below 2000' AGL. One usually has less background clutter and less local traffic up higher, 5000' AGL or so. Also in less remote areas, more are likely to be on flight following for advisories. I realize you have to descend to land at some point.

Just random thoughts, sad event no doubt. Sounds like plenty of experience too.
 
On another forum, someone said they actually have video of the falling debris as they were awaiting takeoff, I think. That should help investigators.

Sometimes the "big sky" just isn't big enough.

I can understand some of the calls I hear for mandated traffic avoidance gear. But another screen and warning that draws one's eyes even more into the cockpit may or may not help long term, especially around airports where a lot of warnings will be expected and probably ignored.

And midairs are still pretty far down the list of fatal accident causes.

A tragedy nonetheless.
 
Anthony said:
That is my thinking. Knee jerk traffic avoidance technology always gets bantered about when this happens.
Click to expand...

We have Ryan TCAD, it is both helpful AND annoying.
 
Bill Jennings said:
We have Ryan TCAD, it is both helpful AND annoying.
Click to expand...

How often to you get false alarms with that?
I use the XRX and most often fly with it off because of the false alarms
They scare me to death.
 
RIP for the deceased. Keep in mind that midair collisions are still vanishingly rare, and probably the least likely thing that will happen to you in an airplane. I bet more people die from running out of gas.
 
What I heard from someone who was there is that one of the planes took off, turned cross, turned down and was going to depart the pattern when the other took off crosswind and hit him. If true, this was a violation of the operating rules for the event.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
How often to you get false alarms with that?
I use the XRX and most often fly with it off because of the false alarms
They scare me to death.
Click to expand...


My PCAS generally agrees with my TIS-B info about 90% of the time. Some false readings but they are pretty easy to ID.

Don't know if. PCAS would have prevented this accident, but if they were both squawking the PCAS would have alerted whoever had it.
 
rwellner98 said:
What I heard from someone who was there is that one of the planes took off, turned cross, turned down and was going to depart the pattern when the other took off crosswind and hit him. If true, this was a violation of the operating rules for the event.
Click to expand...

How does one do that?
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
How does one do that?
Click to expand...

Assuming you are wondering about the mechanics of it, remember it was a dry lakebed, not a conventional airport. So in terms of the surface, one way is as smooth as any other.
 
I witnessed the accident, and the aftermath, and had flown with both pilots in the preceding days. I think it is most proper for me to leave the details of the crash to the investigators.

I will say, however, that a runway and taxi areas were clearly delineated with cones, daily pilot briefings took place during which the standard traffic pattern was regularly discussed, and more than 100 planes operated in and out of the lakebed for 3 days without incident in accordance with those procedures.

This is a very sad loss for all involved. Your thoughts and prayers for the families are much appreciated, as well as for the dozens of pilots who responded to the crash site to offer any help they could. Sadly, there was nothing anybody could do for the victims.
 
And yet the FAA chooses to *not* provide traffic data to all ADS-B users, instead opting to only provide it to those who paid for expensive "out" gear. :(
 
Dav8or said:
I hate this kind of crap. RIP fellow aviators. Fly ins are an elevated risk for sure, but at the same time they really make flying worthwhile for many.

I say we can't get affordable accurate traffic info into the cockpit fast enough! Now we can hear all the crap about the "Mark I Eyeball" and how see and avoid is just fine, with no need for changes at all. Oh yeah, and how all these new pilots are too busy watching TV and following the magenta line. That and lets not forget how horrible a standard traffic pattern with standard entries is! Radio use is just a crutch and really doesn't do anything. :rolleyes::mad2:

I say see and avoid by itself is crap given the wild west that is the uncontrolled field!!:mad::yes:
Click to expand...
Much too sensible. Communication by radio is for sissys. Didn't you know that?!
 
RanchPilot said:
I witnessed the accident, and the aftermath, and had flown with both pilots in the preceding days. I think it is most proper for me to leave the details of the crash to the investigators.

I will say, however, that a runway and taxi areas were clearly delineated with cones, daily pilot briefings took place during which the standard traffic pattern was regularly discussed, and more than 100 planes operated in and out of the lakebed for 3 days without incident in accordance with those procedures.

This is a very sad loss for all involved. Your thoughts and prayers for the families are much appreciated, as well as for the dozens of pilots who responded to the crash site to offer any help they could. Sadly, there was nothing anybody could do for the victims.
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I for one, would like to learn from the incident. Not idle morbid curiosity, but important accident prevention measures. Can you be more specific ? There is a fly in supposed to be held at a nearby private grass strip. As of now I'm thinking I aint going.

Cheers
 
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ralarcon said:
There is a fly in supposed to be held at a nearby private grass strip. As of now I'm thinking I aint going.

Cheers
Click to expand...

Make sure that you don't drive anywhere, either. Sometimes people don't obey traffic laws and end up killing themselves and others who were operating within the law. Point being, one accident does not create sufficient proof of an unsafe condition for all.
 
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I installed a TAS " Traffic alert system" In my little airplane. Up until this year I never got many ghost readings, but this year I have received a few with each flight. I do not look at the ghost readings as anything bad. It keeps my head on a swivel even more.

My TAS comes through my headset. So I really do not need to look at it but for a split second to see alt and distance. If I see it say 5nm, then 4 nm. and within 1000' of my alt. I am swiveling my head like you can not believe. But if it says 3nm then 4 nm at 2000' or more it gets my attention but not like if its counting down and within 1000'.

I like the TAS and a few friends have started using them too.

R.I.P this is so so sad.
Tony
 
I call our Zaon XRX PCAS the "UFO box"

It will show traffic pretty good, but it will also show traffic that just vanishes like a UFO.
 
Mine will be silent and then flashing and beeping 0.0 at me
it is the worst feeling. I know it is picking up my own shadow but for a brief moment...
 
txflyer said:
RIP

Looks like a violent mid-air. Planes came to rest entangled.

With the tech we have today, there's no reason a flying machine can't have some kind of proximity warning device to other aircraft, on that I agree. Will it stop this kind of thing? I doubt it. Flying is flying for lack of stupider words. **** happens and it's going to happen when men and machines go fast. The only consolation when these things happen is that they most likely did die doing what they loved to do. :(
Click to expand...

Because you have to pay 10 times the actual cost of the equipment and installation to get FAA approval.
 
I've got ADS-B traffic in/out, and -- although the system is far from complete or reliable -- it has alerted me to nearby aircraft that I otherwise would not have seen.

That said, I don't think it would be worth much at a fly-in. Too many targets (as there would be at a fly-in) means that you largely tune out the display.
 
One of the pilots who was killed is a close relative of mine. Could you possibly give me some details on the accident in a private email? Thanks so much.
 
UncleMike said:
One of the pilots who was killed is a close relative of mine. Could you possibly give me some details on the accident in a private email? Thanks so much.
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The group where the fly-in was announced and planning discussions occurred was on the https://backcountrypilot.org website (this thread in particular: https://www.backcountrypilot.org/community/forum/latest/high-sierra-fly-in-info-2014-15608), and there is a discussion about the mid air collision that includes some of the witnesses on this thread: https://www.backcountrypilot.org/community/forum/latest/mid-air-at-high-sierra-16075

So that may be a better place to request details.
 
Hi Jim,

Backcountrypilot.org doesn't seem to want to accept my registration. I can't find anywhere on their website where I can contact the administrator and plead my case. Any ideas?
 
Jay Honeck said:
I've got ADS-B traffic in/out, and -- although the system is far from complete or reliable -- it has alerted me to nearby aircraft that I otherwise would not have seen.

That said, I don't think it would be worth much at a fly-in. Too many targets (as there would be at a fly-in) means that you largely tune out the display.
Click to expand...

You might be surprised. I was doing practice approaches at KHYI one time when there was a fly-in. ATC dropped me when I was on final, but I did have the Garmin 330/Mode S unit showing traffic. The unit lit up and we narrowly missed a guy in an experimental that blew in and cut us off on short final to get on the ground first. I was under the hood, but CFI with me shuddered at the way the other guy approached - I don't think it was the famed overhead break, but who knows.
 
UncleMike said:
Hi Jim,

Backcountrypilot.org doesn't seem to want to accept my registration. I can't find anywhere on their website where I can contact the administrator and plead my case. Any ideas?
Click to expand...

I remember having problems getting registered because their welcome and registration activation emails got caught in my spam filter. Even after seeing them there and recovering them, the first time I tried to activate my account with their link it didn't seem to "take". Something about also needing administrator approval. A day or two later I thought they weren't letting me in but I managed to find a way to have the web site resend a new activation link. The second activation link worked. You might want to try again. I can't remember the steps I took on the second round, though.

Otherwise there appears to be a contact email address mentioned on this page:
https://www.backcountrypilot.org/help
 
UncleMike said:
Hi Jim,

Backcountrypilot.org doesn't seem to want to accept my registration. I can't find anywhere on their website where I can contact the administrator and plead my case. Any ideas?
Click to expand...


I am on this site and that one too.....

I can say... There is more info in these posts on POA then over there... YMMV.
 
I finally found the contact email address and wrote the administrator. He quickly let me in. Thanks for the help.
 
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