Indeed. My neighbor who built her own LSA aircraft got her sport pilot instructor and was flying her ass off because there aren't a whole lot of those instructors who want to teach in those things.
medical for teenager w ADHD & ASD
- Thread starter HopefulAviationMom
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StudentPilot4Life
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It is worth noting that if his ADHD is substantial enough, flying light sport is still flying, and it therefore holds the inherent hazards of aviation. I believe this is why if denied by the FAA for a 3rd Class or higher, then the airman cannot fly light sport---they deem the denied person as a danger in the sky to himself and others.
This is a very good point. His health and safety come first.
How is he when it comes to driving a car?
here is what I hope doesnt happen, but it seems like it inevitably does. The OP reads this, and feels that it cant hurt to give it a shot. Whats the worse that can happen, right ? The mentality of - you wont know until you try it. Not realizing that there are significant issues if you "dont pass". As in all the doors that were previously possibilities are no longer an option. And there are no take backs. For whatever reason - everyone gets in this dilemma - oh I didnt know. Oh, can I take it back and withdraw it ? No, once the process starts - it has to be completed. And that starts with the number. You cant withdraw it, you cant stop it, and you cant reverse, delay or postpone it. Its moving once the file is opened. And it will result in a denial unless you are absolutely sure with a senior AME (probably HIMS) that it will be accepted and approved.
Take studentpulot4Life. If he knew now what he knew before he started this process - I'm sure he would have preferred to hold off on submitting that medical and retain his light sport options. He might not have an interest in it - but at least he has the option. Now that option doesnt exist.
Take studentpulot4Life. If he knew now what he knew before he started this process - I'm sure he would have preferred to hold off on submitting that medical and retain his light sport options. He might not have an interest in it - but at least he has the option. Now that option doesnt exist.
Mason
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If the sage advice provided here is ignored, a different career path is assured.
HopefulAviationMom
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I appreciate your point but also can assure you he is reading all of this and taking all of the information & this process very seriously, as he has from the start.
HopefulAviationMom
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we are definitely thinking about other options but is hard to find out about the full range of what those are & how one might fit into them. He hasn’t been so excited about maintenance in the past but who knows what else is out there. i think it is hard to envision something you don’t have exposure to. It would be great if there were camps or career exploration programs beyond flying. I know that’s a different forum (feel free to direct us!) but he is trying to look and we are trying to help.
HopefulAviationMom
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I appreciate your point and I can say that he is motivated and trying to keep as many options open as possible. We hadn’t seen anything about asd in our initial research (though to be honest I didn’t even think about it because it’s not a significant concern in his daily life & not something he discloses unless he has to at this point).
This thread has been enlightening.
Brad Z
Final Approach
FWIW, the Civil Air Patrol (CAP) has a cadet program that focuses on aerospace education and may be of benefit to him. There are also many localized youth Aviation programs out there as well, just gotta seek them out. AOPA may be a good resource for finding them as well.
SkyChaser
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You haven't seen anything about it from the FAA, because they only consider ASD in pilots on a case-by-case basis.
This is a link to an FAA publication with different "case studies" in it. https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/avi...ons/designee_types/ame/fasmb/media/201503.pdf
If you search for "asd", it will bring you right to the article about certifying an ASD airman. This case study is about someone who already had a 2nd class medical, but you'll notice mention of something called an "SI" and tests that the airman had to go through before being granted it. Those tests and letters of recommendation from teachers and other people in his life that prove that he is capable of navigating school and life will probably be required in your case as well. If you're not able to get all those things ready before submitting his number and initial MedExpress to the AME's office, he may not be able to reach the very short timeline the FAA gives. In which case, he will get a denial and it will be much harder to convince an AME or the FAA that he should get a subsequent approval.
If he doesn't struggle with it much in real life, it may be one of the cases where the AME and FAA is willing to issue. But he will most likely have to take something called a "CogScreen", get letters from his treating doctors, and letters from people who can speak to his ability to integrate normally in life and his ability to make judgments and decisions. Those things are things that the AME should help you arrange prior to submitting the application to the FAA, and is the reason why we all are telling you NOT to give the AME the number yet. They will take time to gather, and the FAA doesn't care.
I know this is really long, and I'm sorry, as I don't want to overwhelm you, but you might consider going out to a local airport with a shop, and just asking if your son can sit and watch them work, to get exposure to the maintenance side of things. If he is a minor, they will probably ask you to stay as well, but it would be a way to get a taste for it. If you go to a big enough airport, they might also be willing to show your son other jobs at the airport - like fueling aircraft. There is also always Youtube.
And please don’t read what you want to read in to what skychaser just posted. You and most have been in the adhd diagnosis which is much more widespread. But I’m telling you the asd is going to be the bigger problem. When a hard case doc which kind of only deals with difficult cases tells you in all the years he has been doing this - that he has only ever gotten two with very light spectrum disorders through and only late in life (as skychaser elaborated you need those successes of navigating school and life to be shown to them) - and only then has they been approved - that should ring a lot of alarm bells for you. Asd is a big roadblock and big no no. It’s pretty much an automatic denial. So when they say “case by case” they mean it’s really rare and really difficult. You will have to find and see the rare cases they let through. But if you want to be the first to do if before say age 40 - sure - just be prepared to give up those things you haven’t lost yet and for a very very expensive road of testing, appeals and time.
Each of us has to make our own choices. But this road is littered with people who wish they hadn’t gone down the ame / medical road if they knew the cost and difficult of the HIMS screens are and what they lost by being denied.
Each of us has to make our own choices. But this road is littered with people who wish they hadn’t gone down the ame / medical road if they knew the cost and difficult of the HIMS screens are and what they lost by being denied.
Pinecone
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And he can get some flying in with CAP also.
bbchien
Touchdown! Greaser!
He's probalby got big dreams.
Unmedicated, he'll likely do just fine on the FAA's preliminary battery, but that's about $1,400 in cities wher eit's abvailable from a HIMS certified neurspcyhologist (and he'll need a negative urine. test at the time of the evaluation...
As to the ASD, I would get that repaired (it's done transvenously-ly, no incision, unless it's a "ostium secundum" type). I am currently working on a 30-something captain who did not get his fixed, had a stroke event and 3 years later is getting it fixed. He will succeed but it's a long road. Talk about disrupting his life and that of his family!
Fixed or not, he'll need a
curent bubble echo
Stress treadmill
24 hour Holter monitor
... and I wouldn't apply until he had everything and all was "good", so as to no jeopardize Access to light sport aviation. He sure could start there!.
B.
Unmedicated, he'll likely do just fine on the FAA's preliminary battery, but that's about $1,400 in cities wher eit's abvailable from a HIMS certified neurspcyhologist (and he'll need a negative urine. test at the time of the evaluation...
As to the ASD, I would get that repaired (it's done transvenously-ly, no incision, unless it's a "ostium secundum" type). I am currently working on a 30-something captain who did not get his fixed, had a stroke event and 3 years later is getting it fixed. He will succeed but it's a long road. Talk about disrupting his life and that of his family!
Fixed or not, he'll need a
curent bubble echo
Stress treadmill
24 hour Holter monitor
... and I wouldn't apply until he had everything and all was "good", so as to no jeopardize Access to light sport aviation. He sure could start there!.
B.
SkyChaser
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Dr. Bruce, in this case, ASD refers to Autism Spectrum Disorder.
Step one: google "aviation careers."
After you finish reading those 317,000,000 results you might have a few ideas.
Without knowing his interests, what he's good (and not good) at, what he enjoys, etc., it's tough to give you specific answers. He could have a career as an aviation attorney, as an airplane broker, as an aerospace engineer, as an architect specializing in airport facilities, as an aviation photographer, as an aviation historian, et cetera ad infinitum. The options are practically limitless.
My personal story isn't too far different. I'm an electrical engineer who recently retired from Lockheed Martin. I spent my career designing (or managing engineering teams that were designing) parts of some of the most sophisticated aircraft and missiles in the world. My own medical condition led me to becoming a Sport Pilot initially. When the FAA eventually came out with a program called "Basic Med" it became more feasible for me to get a medical and pick up my Private Pilot ticket. But flying as a Sport Pilot wasn't bad at all, and really not terribly limiting when it comes to flying for fun. I had a great time flying LSAs.
If he's at all interested in technical subjects and has some ability in math and science, an engineering career might be a good choice. National Engineers Week is almost upon us (2/19 - 2/25; https://www.nspe.org/resources/partners-and-state-societies/engineers-week ) and there might be some local activities he could attend to learn more. Many engineering societies visit schools during that week and help students learn about careers in the profession.
There are probably other opportunities to learn about careers in your area if you do a little searching and talk with some people. See if there's a student chapter of the Experimental Aircraft Association (EAA) near you. Look for a Young Eagles event. Go to a small airport and ask questions.
Attachments
dr Chien I believe the reference in this case is autism spectrum disorder. It would be great if you could elaborate on how difficult to overcome that is. I have quoted a couple of your snippets on it - but there is an spectrum diagnosis and wanting to overcome that.
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Our 12-yo son is also deeply interested in aviation and wants to be a pilot. He's been diagnosed with ADHD and is lightly medicated. We aren't sure that he'll be able to go off meds and pass the exams, so at this point we continue to encourage him to explore different areas of aviation. But last fall we enrolled him in CAP and he is doing great and really enjoys it. It's been a great program for him for many, many reasons.
It should be mentioned that without either a medical certificate or a BasicMed qualification, his flying in CAP would be as a passenger, a non-pilot crew member, or flying a glider if there is one in his area. In powered aircraft, there is significant training and responsibilities for the observer and scanner positions.There would also be an opportunity for a little time at the controls during cadet orientation flights while he is young enough for those.
I have heard that there have been cases where an AME's staff member has entered the number before the doctor even saw the applicant. That's why the above advice to black out or cut off the number may be necessary at some AME offices.
StudentPilot4Life
Filing Flight Plan
@Anthem "Take studentpulot4Life. If he knew now what he knew before he started this process - I'm sure he would have preferred to hold off on submitting that medical and retain his light sport options. He might not have an interest in it - but at least he has the option. Now that option doesnt exist."
I'll admit that being able to fly my own plane while on my medicines sounds a lot better than the months and months of living brute force, quite depressive a lot of the time and consuming enough caffeine to probably send the average person to the hospital. It is too bad indeed. I had no idea about the path I inevitably began traveling down once I submitted that MedXPress document and went to that quack-ish AME who said ADHD wasn't even the big deal--she claimed it was the depression diagnosis instead. (Dr Blue in Wyoming--an AME who DOES know his stuff--says to find an AME who's a pilot, by the way. (He is one of them.))
I'll admit that being able to fly my own plane while on my medicines sounds a lot better than the months and months of living brute force, quite depressive a lot of the time and consuming enough caffeine to probably send the average person to the hospital. It is too bad indeed. I had no idea about the path I inevitably began traveling down once I submitted that MedXPress document and went to that quack-ish AME who said ADHD wasn't even the big deal--she claimed it was the depression diagnosis instead. (Dr Blue in Wyoming--an AME who DOES know his stuff--says to find an AME who's a pilot, by the way. (He is one of them.))
This. look at the ame's bio. Pilots like to let everyone know they're pilots
PaulS
Touchdown! Greaser!
This is why I hate acronyms. OP, I hope this gets sorted out.
bbchien
Touchdown! Greaser!
The key to success with autism spectrum disorder (thanks, "Half Fast") is has your son been an any social leadership roles? The heart of Autism spectrum is "defective relationships with other individuals". The Captain is both judge and baliff while asea, and FAA want to know that someone on the spectrum will "get it right". So real life evidence (SUCCESSFUL Leadership roles, well documented) would sure help that......
At the upper end of ASD I do have two pilots who have succeeded and are workin in industry, but what bit of work it was to get there......!
At the upper end of ASD I do have two pilots who have succeeded and are workin in industry, but what bit of work it was to get there......!
Another reason to join CAP and advance thru the cadet leadership track. A part-time job with growing responsibilities working with people, not stuck in front of a computer. Any position that has lots of customer/people relationships.
Also high school clubs, student government, JROTC, church youth group, etc. There are many opportunities.
Pinecone
En-Route
Yes. And that applies to all the other programs. They all have to follow the regulations on medicals.
CAP Cadets between 12 and 18 years old are eligible for 5 powered orientation rides. They are normally performed with two cadets in the plane and each cadet gets about 1 hour in the right seat, mostly flying the plane. And one hour in the back seat observing and listening.
They are also eligible for 5 glider orientation flights.
If you can get the medical issue resolved, CAP conducts flight academies where selected cadets spend a week doing ground school and flying. Most, by the end can pass their written test and have soloed. This is at no cost to the cadet.
There are also programs that will take cadets all the way to their Private certificate.
And yes, cadets and senior members can train to be Mission Scanners and Mission Observers. These are non-pilot aircrew positions. Although, in some cases, they get some bookleg flying from the right seat during transport missions (moving planes around).
ebetancourt
Line Up and Wait
Sorry, the fact that an AME is a pilot isn't, by itself, an endorsement. Before I found Bruce, I did a consultation with a local AME. It took a lot of discussion with his staff and paying for a physical before they would make the appointment. He was pleasant, did not look at my application, and let me know how successful he was in weeding out old pilots. Bragged about being a co-owner of a Bo.
HopefulAviationMom
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Thank you. I think I have come across that document but wasn’t sure how it translated to practice.You haven't seen anything about it from the FAA, because they only consider ASD in pilots on a case-by-case basis.
This is a link to an FAA publication with different "case studies" in it. https://www.faa.gov/other_visit/avi...ons/designee_types/ame/fasmb/media/201503.pdf
If you search for "asd", it will bring you right to the article about certifying an ASD airman. This case study is about someone who already had a 2nd class medical, but you'll notice mention of something called an "SI" and tests that the airman had to go through before being granted it. Those tests and letters of recommendation from teachers and other people in his life that prove that he is capable of navigating school and life will probably be required in your case as well. If you're not able to get all those things ready before submitting his number and initial MedExpress to the AME's office, he may not be able to reach the very short timeline the FAA gives. In which case, he will get a denial and it will be much harder to convince an AME or the FAA that he should get a subsequent approval.
If he doesn't struggle with it much in real life, it may be one of the cases where the AME and FAA is willing to issue. But he will most likely have to take something called a "CogScreen", get letters from his treating doctors, and letters from people who can speak to his ability to integrate normally in life and his ability to make judgments and decisions. Those things are things that the AME should help you arrange prior to submitting the application to the FAA, and is the reason why we all are telling you NOT to give the AME the number yet. They will take time to gather, and the FAA doesn't care.
I know this is really long, and I'm sorry, as I don't want to overwhelm you, but you might consider going out to a local airport with a shop, and just asking if your son can sit and watch them work, to get exposure to the maintenance side of things. If he is a minor, they will probably ask you to stay as well, but it would be a way to get a taste for it. If you go to a big enough airport, they might also be willing to show your son other jobs at the airport - like fueling aircraft. There is also always Youtube.
Also not overwhelmed- we’ve had a life of jumping through extra hoops. That said - I do understand that it’s not quite that simple — a long shot requiring careful thought, planning, & consultation to even decide if it’s worth trying.
HopefulAviationMom
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We definitely need to do more research about what that entails. he is realistic and considering all of this info as he was hoping to go to college with an aviation program. So we have to look at things in a new lens now.
HopefulAviationMom
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for some reason I stopped getting notifications so I missed this. Thank you for the reply. His ASD is autism spectrum disorder & most people who meet him don’t realize. He found your page and sent you an inquiry to find out more.
sourdough44
En-Route
Just an aside, I’m not in the medical field so my opinion is worthless. We raised two boys, one is a pilot. I didn’t think we had much ADHD back when I was growing up, the 70’s. It seems to be more of a thing now.
I’ve seen it myself, with some parent/doctor relationships ‘we can try this’ is common. Now some think I’m against all ‘professional’ diagnosis. I’m just saying, under the ‘right circumstances’, all of us could be on a mind altering drug, rant over.
Yeah, report me for being incorrigible, I’m almost retired anyway.
I’ve seen it myself, with some parent/doctor relationships ‘we can try this’ is common. Now some think I’m against all ‘professional’ diagnosis. I’m just saying, under the ‘right circumstances’, all of us could be on a mind altering drug, rant over.
Yeah, report me for being incorrigible, I’m almost retired anyway.
HopefulAviationMom
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I’ve studied psychology so I am aware of this shift over time. though for the record, he has never been medicated. Many people with adhd are not. It depends on how it manifests itself.
HopefulAviationMom
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CAP flies out of the airport where he has started lessons. He wasn’t interested - he is not interested in the military aspects at all and unfortunately can’t do
a school year program because of where is school
Is located. He could do something in the summer (may - sept) but haven’t found many (any) summer options other than engineering.
HopefulAviationMom
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He hasn’t yet. Originally he wanted to get his pilot license before drivers license. But he could also start flying before he could get a drivers permit. He can get that in a couple of weeks but he got his discovery flight for his 15th bday. That lead to starting lessons though there’s been no rush & tricky schedules. I think he’s under 10 flight hours so far.
He has driven go carts, steered a tractor, and any other vehicle he is allowed to drive and is at least mechanically capable (his performance on simulators would suggest this as well) but obviously none of that is the same thing as an actual vehicle.
the issue won’t be the physical flying per se. It will be the other things related to it that concern the FAA. If they grant him say a 1st class medical (and the only real differentiating factors between a 1 and a 3) are vision and heart later - they are saying he is fully capable of being pilot in command of a ship (plane) with 500 passengers aboard. So that’s their concern - not that he can fly a 747 but that’s he can be captain and make the decisions necessary when he has crew, staff and passengers aboard. He is judge jury and executioner at that point. And that’s why they have issues with certain diagnosis. We have a tendency to just think about the simple task of just “flying” but that medical carries all the way through. And I’m aware of high functioning spectrum kids - as my son is one of them. He is brilliant at certain video games and things he wants to do. But there will be situations where he will more than likely never be able to handle in a captain of the ship type of situation.
HopefulAviationMom
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absolutely. We definitely understand that. The non-mechanical aspects about environment & adjusting quickly, assessing the conditions/other vehicles-etc, & making decisions in a split second based on that.
The specific question was about driving so I included what we know so far (& a lot we don’t)