May 21, PA31 down

Jeff767 said:
The maintenance shop shut down the day of the accident and immediately filed bankruptcy.
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Assuming the log was signed by an individual, one could go after that person, and identify anyone else in discovery. Likewise insurance could be based on date of occurrence, not date of claim. Or not.

A good lawyer knows how to deal with this kind of situation.
 
steingar said:
Shoulda been picked up on preflight.
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Easy to say, but I’d bet most pilots don’t check for proper trim tab orientation during the average preflight, but rather to make sure the cotter pins and necessary hardware is secure. I can admittedly say that it’s not something I routinely check for.
 
RyanB said:
Easy to say, but I’d bet most pilots don’t check for proper trim tab orientation during the average preflight, but rather to make sure the cotter pins and necessary hardware is secure. I can admittedly say that it’s not something I routinely check for.
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If I'm certain the trim and control surfaces haven't been serviced since the last time it's flown, then yes, I just check that the connections are secure. However, if I know that the aircraft has been serviced, you bet I'm checking for correct orientation.
 
asicer said:
If I'm certain the trim and control surfaces haven't been serviced since the last time it's flown, then yes, I just check that the connections are secure. However, if I know that the aircraft has been serviced, you bet I'm checking for correct orientation.
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Well, sure, that’s different. If I know it’s been monkey’d with, I’d absolutely check it for sure, without a doubt. I’m just saying that on any given day, most pilots (I’d assume) don’t verify that the trim tab orientation is correct. They’re just checking that the hardware is installed and secured.
 
In my glider club first flight of the day we always do a positive control check with someone holding each control surface to assure everything is connected properly and securely. We do all the controls, including flaps, spoilers and elevator, rudder. None of the gliders I fly have trim tabs, or I’m sure we’d check them too. I was taught to do it because the wings are easily removable and the controls may have been connected wrong. What I never thought about until now is that wouldn’t require the elevator and rudder checks, but we did them anyway. Good practice.
 
RyanB said:
Easy to say, but I’d bet most pilots don’t check for proper trim tab orientation during the average preflight, but rather to make sure the cotter pins and necessary hardware is secure. I can admittedly say that it’s not something I routinely check for.
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Not routinely, but it should definitely be checked after any maintenance. Controlling a big airplane like that without trim is a bear.
 
Salty said:
No you don’t.
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Yeah, I do. You don't know me. I check everything I can get my hands and eyes on. I allow my persnickety and obsessive compulsive tendencies rule the day. I have maintenance done at a small strip nestled in hills. I check EVERYTHING.
 
Alone? Place your phone somewhere to record trim tab movement when you climb into the thing and run it from stop to stop.

This aint rocket science. Make damn sure you investigate which way it is supposed to go if you don't know.

If your airplane already functions fine, why not run the tab "full nose trim up" take a picture of the them with your phone and write on the screen "full nose trim up" and do the same with it set in "full nose trim down". Then you have a reference to compare it to later.

We have a hugely powerful recording device in our phones and it amazes me how many pilots forget that when they are having airplane troubles. Local guy was fighting radios issues in his SR22 and I said, "did you take a video of it?" Blank stare followed with damn that's a great idea.
 
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steingar said:
Not routinely, but it should definitely be checked after any maintenance. Controlling a big airplane like that without trim is a bear.
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How many hours do you have flying Navajos with that multi rating you never got?

steingar said:
Yeah, I do. You don't know me. I check everything I can get my hands and eyes on. I allow my persnickety and obsessive compulsive tendencies rule the day. I have maintenance done at a small strip nestled in hills. I check EVERYTHING.
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You always check to make sure your gear's down before landing too, right? How'd that work out for you?
 
Ted said:
Just wanted to address this. I don't think any of us at this point know what the full intention was, but FlightAware showed no history on that tail number meaning it hadn't flown in several months. The annual inspection apparently did include some level of paint and the control surfaces removed. It was probably significant in terms of what was touched all around.

But, this wasn't just a Navajo, this was a P-Navajo (PA-31P-425). Navajos are thirsty, the TIGO-541s in P-Navajos are moreso. I'm not sure normal expected fuel burn numbers, but takeoff as I recall is north of 50 GPH per side.

Point being, yes it seems it was a bit on the high side. But with reserves that could be a couple hours, and he may have wanted that for some of his post-MX checks of all systems depending on what else was done (maybe including making sure the fuel gauges were working correctly, or maybe it was known they didn't - as is often the case on Navajos). I might've done similarly depending on what I was wanting to check and what maintenance had been performed.
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Agree that the amount of fuel taken on means nothing in this case. Have done this drill a few times, picking up an airplane several hours away from home base, after heavy maintenance. When I do the initial preflight, fuel is below tabs and quantity unknown.. i'll go ahead and have it topped off so I have enough for a test flight and the flight home. Then fly 15-20 mins in the local area, land and look over the airplane for any leaks or issues prior to departing on the longer cross country to deliver it back to its home base.
 
sarangan said:
My guess is he engaged the autopilot once he reached pattern altitude. Even if he had realized that the autopilot was misbehaving and turned it off, the trim would have been way off by that point. Without knowing which way to turn the trim, I don't think he had much time. Very sad.
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Doubtful. Only 12 nm between MYR and CRE.
 
Ted said:
Just wanted to address this. I don't think any of us at this point know what the full intention was, but FlightAware showed no history on that tail number meaning it hadn't flown in several months. The annual inspection apparently did include some level of paint and the control surfaces removed. It was probably significant in terms of what was touched all around.

But, this wasn't just a Navajo, this was a P-Navajo (PA-31P-425). Navajos are thirsty, the TIGO-541s in P-Navajos are moreso. I'm not sure normal expected fuel burn numbers, but takeoff as I recall is north of 50 GPH per side.

Point being, yes it seems it was a bit on the high side. But with reserves that could be a couple hours, and he may have wanted that for some of his post-MX checks of all systems depending on what else was done (maybe including making sure the fuel gauges were working correctly, or maybe it was known they didn't - as is often the case on Navajos). I might've done similarly depending on what I was wanting to check and what maintenance had been performed.
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Apparently it went bankrupt the day of the crash but there was a paint shop at MYR.
 
FancyG said:
Doubtful. Only 12 nm between MYR and CRE.
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A short hop like this between two controlled airports can get very busy, especially in a complex high performance airplane. An autopilot can help relieve the workload. I think it is more likely he engaged the autopilot due to the short distance.
 
sarangan said:
A short hop like this between two controlled airports can get very busy, especially in a complex high performance airplane. An autopilot can help relieve the workload. I think it is more likely he engaged the autopilot due to the short distance.
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Once airborne, the controller instructed the pilot to turn left; however, the pilot stated that he needed to return to runway 18.

Thanks for taking the time out of both of our days to share your wisdom, dude. Spare me next time.
 
Ted said:
How many hours do you have flying Navajos with that multi rating you never got?



You always check to make sure your gear's down before landing too, right? How'd that work out for you?
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In my experience heavier faster aircraft need more trim. If yours differs I’d love to hear about it, though it would violate certain laws of physics. My gear goes down 3 miles from the airport always. I believe that if you wait for the downwind you could be surprised and forget. I suspect I’m right in this, since an airplane gears up every week.
 
FancyG said:
Once airborne, the controller instructed the pilot to turn left; however, the pilot stated that he needed to return to runway 18.

Thanks for taking the time out of both of our days to share your wisdom, dude. Spare me next time.
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Sure you have been spared for next time. This is a forum for discussions, not immature insults.
 
luvflyin said:
You can’t see it in that video, but there is some countersteering going on. Just a little bit to start the ‘tip’ in the right direction. Little inputs of ‘pressure’ to the bars, both ways, are continually needed to keep the bike going where you want. Inputs so little you don’t actually see it happening.
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I don’t get it.
You start off saying “you can’t see it in the video”,and then go on to say there is some countersteering going on. If you can’t see it, then how do you know it’s going on?
I ride a motorcycle...a lot...and KNOW that at a real slow speed, if I want to turn to the right, I turn the handlebars to the right...no countersteering going on. Once at a certain speed, I need to push right to go right, so in a sense, I’m applying a pressure to the handlebars in such a way that I’m turning the handlebars to the left to go right. Counter steering means applying OPPOSITE pressure to the handlebars to turn, so in other words, one would turn the handlebars to the left in order to turn right. There is no way that when at a slow speed, one would apply pressure to the handlebars to turn them to the left first in order to go right. Again, I have done this numerous times on my motorcycle, and at slow speeds, I turn the front wheel in the direction I want to turn...no countersteering involved.
 
Over simplification on my part. So much depends on 'body english' at those slow speeds. Are you leaning with the bike? Or staying upright and keeping the bike underneath you? The gyroscopic precession factor of counter steering at those slow speeds will not have kicked in.
 
sarangan said:
A short hop like this between two controlled airports can get very busy, especially in a complex high performance airplane. An autopilot can help relieve the workload. I think it is more likely he engaged the autopilot due to the short distance.
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He never got high enough to engage a autopilot and the problems began immediately after liftoff. The flight between those airports is a easy flight with one frequency change.
 
luvflyin said:
Over simplification on my part. So much depends on 'body english' at those slow speeds. Are you leaning with the bike? Or staying upright and keeping the bike underneath you? The gyroscopic precession factor of counter steering at those slow speeds will not have kicked in.
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Yeah, no problem. I always found it rather bizarre where at a real slow speed, one just turns the handlebars in the direction you want to turn, so to turn left, you push on the right grip. Then once you hit a certain speed, you need to push on the left grip to turn left. Like you said, certain forces come into play once a certain speed is attained, hence the need to counter-steer.
 
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