May 21, PA31 down

Can you catch these in preflight? Like when you do the box control check?

I guess what I am asking is can you even see the stabilator from the cockpit during your control check ?
 
WannFly said:
Can you catch these in preflight? Like when you do the box control check?

I guess what I am asking is can you even see the stabilator from the cockpit during your control check ?
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Navajo has traditional elevators, and no you can't see them from the cockpit. Only a careful preflight might catch it. As pitch heavy as a Navajo is, it would be near unflyable without proper trim operation.
 
midwestpa24 said:
Navajo has traditional elevators, and no you can't see them from the cockpit. Only a careful preflight might catch it. As pitch heavy as a Navajo is, it would be near unflyable without proper trim operation.
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where it's confusing is that they were able to take off, get to TPE and even turn downwind before everything went south.
 
eman1200 said:
where it's confusing is that they were able to take off, get to TPE and even turn downwind before everything went south.
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Near neutral/takeoff setting, being reversed wouldn't show up. As the plane accelerates and you now start adjusting trim, the more you trim the worse it gets.
 
WannFly said:
Can you catch these in preflight? Like when you do the box control check?

I guess what I am asking is can you even see the stabilator from the cockpit during your control check ?
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If I ever have to fly a plane that had it's control cables disconnected/reconnected, this is definitely something I'd check during the walkaround. This isn't the first time I've read about reversed trim tabs:

https://www.pilotsofamerica.com/com...heel-today-on-cessna-172.100839/#post-2218473

I also remember watching an (I think) AOPA or ASI video about a 182 with the same thing but a quick search didn't seem to bring it up.
 
I don't think one would put 167.5 gallons of fuel in an airplane that is undergoing a post-maintenance flight test. It appears that the pilot intended to fly some distance, which was ill advised.

Anytime flight controls are removed and reinstalled, proper operation should be confirmed on the ground, not in the air.
 
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Ugh. That would be tough to troubleshoot in the air and figure that out quickly. Likely just fighting the entire time.
 
benyflyguy said:
Ugh. That would be tough to troubleshoot in the air and figure that out quickly. Likely just fighting the entire time.
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my dad has flown RC airplanes since radio control was invented (starting with rubber-powered escapement “technology”)...a few years back, he plugged the ailerons in backward on his stearman...and didn’t check function before flight. Even with all his experience, he wasn’t able to troubleshoot the reversal quickly enough to save it.

much like so many folks cannot fight the urge to make the impossible turn or pulling back as the ground rushes up, it would be extremely difficult (particularly with little altitude) to reprogram your mind to reverse control input.

Certainly my example involves a primary flight control vs trim in this case, but same concept.
 
Something like this, provided final cause is indeed the recent work on the plane, has to be tough on the guys that did that work.
As a pilot I try to exercise my best ADM to make every flight I do safe for me and my passengers. But with each turn of the key to start up I am accepting a risk that while my ADM is good but if I make bad decisions I could cost myself my life snd others. But mostly mine.
This case is a whole different beast. Someone worked on that plane and as a result of a mistake it killed someone else.
 
Reminds me of the carnival-trick bicycle rigged so that the front wheel turns in the opposite direction of the handlebars. NOBODY can ride it successfully except the carnie who runs the hustle, because it's just too hard for people to overpower their innate urge to turn the bars where they want to go.
 
Omalley1537 said:
my dad has flown RC airplanes since radio control was invented (starting with rubber-powered escapement “technology”)...a few years back, he plugged the ailerons in backward on his stearman...and didn’t check function before flight. Even with all his experience, he wasn’t able to troubleshoot the reversal quickly enough to save it.
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Before I became a real pilot I flew RC. Had the aileron dip switch on the TX in the wrong position when flying a Corsair which did the same thing. I managed to get it around the “pattern” but it was ugly and I remember my hands were literally shaking. When left becomes right and up becomes down it truly puts your brain in a weird place.
 
woodchucker said:
Before I became a real pilot I flew RC. Had the aileron dip switch on the TX in the wrong position when flying a Corsair which did the same thing. I managed to get it around the “pattern” but it was ugly and I remember my hands were literally shaking. When left becomes right and up becomes down it truly puts your brain in a weird place.
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I also used to fly RC airplanes, first flight of a new airplane I did the same thing - fortunately I had asked another guy to be next to me for the flight... a moment or so after I asked him to reach over and flip the dip switch for channel 2 (i.e. when he realized what I was asking for) I could see his hands start shaking. Successful flight, but would have been easier had it not been a first flight and way out of trim in both pitch and roll.
 
MFE said:
Reminds me of the carnival-trick bicycle rigged so that the front wheel turns in the opposite direction of the handlebars. NOBODY can ride it successfully except the carnie who runs the hustle, because it's just too hard for people to overpower their innate urge to turn the bars where they want to go.
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Getting a bit off topic here, but I have one of these and I can ride it, called a "reverse turning bicycle". BTW, @MFE you have it backwards: a normal bike, believe it or not, you turn THE OPPOSITE way you want to turn. So to turn left, you actually move the handlebars to the right. On a reverse turning bike you actually turn right to go right, and left to go left (of course the wheel is turning the opposite way though).
 
Country Flier said:
Getting a bit off topic here, but I have one of these and I can ride it, called a "reverse turning bicycle". BTW, @MFE you have it backwards: a normal bike, believe it or not, you turn THE OPPOSITE way you want to turn. So to turn left, you actually move the handlebars to the right. On a reverse turning bike you actually turn right to go right, and left to go left (of course the wheel is turning the opposite way though).
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That’s getting into gyroscopic precession. That doesn’t kick in until you get a certain amount of forward speed. How do they ‘rig’ the bars so they literally turn the fork in the opposite direction?

EDIT: found it.
 
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Country Flier said:
Getting a bit off topic here, but I have one of these and I can ride it, called a "reverse turning bicycle". BTW, @MFE you have it backwards: a normal bike, believe it or not, you turn THE OPPOSITE way you want to turn. So to turn left, you actually move the handlebars to the right. On a reverse turning bike you actually turn right to go right, and left to go left (of course the wheel is turning the opposite way though).
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Now I'm really confused (not an unusual condition for me), because in all of my years of pedalcycle riding, I've always turned the handlebars left to go left and right to go right. What am I missing here?

Cheers,
Grog
 
Thanks, Bill.

Imagine ... for all these years I thought that I was leaning because of weight shift. It's never too late to learn something new, and if Wilbur Wright says it is so, then it is so.

Cheers,
Grog
 
The maintenance shop shut down the day of the accident and immediately filed bankruptcy.
 
eman1200 said:
where it's confusing is that they were able to take off, get to TPE and even turn downwind before everything went south.
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My guess is he engaged the autopilot once he reached pattern altitude. Even if he had realized that the autopilot was misbehaving and turned it off, the trim would have been way off by that point. Without knowing which way to turn the trim, I don't think he had much time. Very sad.
 
sarangan said:
My guess is he engaged the autopilot once he reached pattern altitude. Even if he had realized that the autopilot was misbehaving and turned it off, the trim would have been way off by that point. Without knowing which way to turn the trim, I don't think he had much time. Very sad.
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I can tell you from my time in both the Navajo and it's turbine sibling the Cheyenne, they are both quite heavy in pitch, and require active use of the trim to comfortably fly. Not saying it's a bad thing, makes the plane feel very solid and is a nice flying airplane, but without trim it will wear you out and overpower you quickly.
 
Tantalum said:
this is a paranoia of mine.. if I can't see it I roll the wheel and have a buddy watch it. If I'm alone then I hope it's not my day.
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Can one turn the trim wheel one way, go look at the surfaces, turn it the other, and then recheck?
 
Jeff767 said:
The maintenance shop shut down the day of the accident and immediately filed bankruptcy.
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If they were insured, couldn’t you still go after their insurance? And if not insured, then I wonder if one could make an argument to pierce the corporate veil (if incorporated). Not that I imagine mechanics running these shops typically have deep pockets...
 
sarangan said:
My guess is he engaged the autopilot once he reached pattern altitude. Even if he had realized that the autopilot was misbehaving and turned it off, the trim would have been way off by that point. Without knowing which way to turn the trim, I don't think he had much time. Very sad.
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He never got to pattern altitude.
 
Capngrog said:
Now I'm really confused (not an unusual condition for me), because in all of my years of pedalcycle riding, I've always turned the handlebars left to go left and right to go right. What am I missing here?

Cheers,
Grog
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It’s not a bicycle. Two wheels is a whole different world. On two you ‘tip’ from side to side. Not so for tricycles. Think about going fast on a tricycle and cranking the handlebars left. Centrifugal force pushes ‘you’ to the right. On a bicycle that also tips you ‘and’ the bicycle to the right.
 
donjohnston said:
To be fair, that is true in some cases but not all.

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You can’t see it in that video, but there is some countersteering going on. Just a little bit to start the ‘tip’ in the right direction. Little inputs of ‘pressure’ to the bars, both ways, are continually needed to keep the bike going where you want. Inputs so little you don’t actually see it happening.
 
Tantalum said:
this is a paranoia of mine.. if I can't see it I roll the wheel and have a buddy watch it. If I'm alone then I hope it's not my day.
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You can roll the wheel/push the button, walk around to back of the plane and see if it did what it is supposed to. Ya don’t even need to climb into the cockpit to do it on a lot of planes
 
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3393RP said:
I don't think one would put 167.5 gallons of fuel in an airplane that is undergoing a post-maintenance flight test. It appears that the pilot intended to fly some distance, which was ill advised.
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Just wanted to address this. I don't think any of us at this point know what the full intention was, but FlightAware showed no history on that tail number meaning it hadn't flown in several months. The annual inspection apparently did include some level of paint and the control surfaces removed. It was probably significant in terms of what was touched all around.

But, this wasn't just a Navajo, this was a P-Navajo (PA-31P-425). Navajos are thirsty, the TIGO-541s in P-Navajos are moreso. I'm not sure normal expected fuel burn numbers, but takeoff as I recall is north of 50 GPH per side.

Point being, yes it seems it was a bit on the high side. But with reserves that could be a couple hours, and he may have wanted that for some of his post-MX checks of all systems depending on what else was done (maybe including making sure the fuel gauges were working correctly, or maybe it was known they didn't - as is often the case on Navajos). I might've done similarly depending on what I was wanting to check and what maintenance had been performed.
 
steingar said:
Shoulda been picked up on preflight. After maintenance I check EVERYTHING.
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True enough, but IIRC (used to fly a P-Navajo) the elevator is heavy and rests against the nose-down stop. The trim tabs are of the anti-balance type and point even more toward the ground on the walk around. So you need to lift the elevator to the horizontal position and eye-ball a nearly faired-in trim tab setting. If the control lock was installed during the exterior inspection the tabs might have appeared near the takeoff position. But, as you say, after a control surface change you want to be extra vigilant about everything (I also used to specialize in changing flight controls in the USAF).
 
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