lost on flight planning

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hyphen81

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hyphen81
I'm hitting a major wall in my flight training and I'm starting to get really frustrated. I'm trying to pan my dual cross country, and I'm really stuck on all the calculations. I'm struggling so much on this I don't even know where to begin to ask for help. :confused:

I've looked on youtube for videos describing the flight planning process in detail, but they all leave out the nitty gritty stuff, and a lot of them end up being for flight simulator, which is fine, but I'd feel better if they were from a flight school. I have the Jeppesen book, but it basically isn't worth the paper its written on when it comes to flight planning. I then bought Bob Gardner's book, "The Complete Private Pilot", which was more helpful, but I'm still just really lost. I met with my CFI and got a little more clarity on it, but I'm supposed to fly this dual cross country this weekend, and I don't know if I'm even going to be able to do anything but plot the checkpoints. I might have to cancel it and meet with my CFI again.

The first confusing thing is I asked for a copy of the POH for the airplane I regularly fly. My instructor sent me a POH for a 172 a few years older that has a 160HP engine. But the one I fly has a 180HP engine. Surely that has to make a difference in the performance of the airplane, so how am I supposed to be accurate in all these calculations if I'm using the wrong airplane from the get go?

Another example of something I'm struggling with is, I'm trying to find out how much fuel I'm going to use on each leg, so I'm looking at the cruise performance chart in the POH (see attached) and trying to figure out how to even read the damn thing is an exercise in futility. How do I know what pressure altitude would be if my desired altitude for the flight is 4500'? The chart is listed at 2300 lbs, but we'll be at about 1860 lbs. How do I extrapolate the right values from this?

Can anyone point me in the general direction of clarity, because I'm not even in the same hemisphere as clarity at this point. This has been by far the most frustrating part of flight training for me so far.

:mad2:
 

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Ask your instructor to sit down with you and do the first one together. Do all the calculations with them. Once I did it once with mine I was good to go. Make sure they show you how to calculate top of climb and start of decent. After one you will be good to go.
 
My CFI has been expired for a while, but if you can make it over to Copperhill, TN, I'd be happy to go over any questions you may have and offer some tips and hints.

But, as suggested, for consistency this is something ideally reviewed with your current instructor.

It's important to know how to do this, but in real life few flights require the level of precision that you need to demonstrate for your license.

Anyway, let me know if I can be of service.
 
If you can't find the performance tables for the plane you're actually going to fly elsewhere, just borrow the books when you have the plane rented and make a copy of those pages...shouldn't be more than two or three. Frankly, with 172's I suspect being within a year (except the year they switched from Continental to Lycoming) isn't going to make a bit of difference.
 
tngarner said:
Ask your instructor to sit down with you and do the first one together.
Click to expand...
You shouldn't have to ask. The first dual XC should be planned together from start to finish, and then flown together. The instructor should have you walk in with nothing planned, and then spend a couple of hours going through the planning process, including weather, NOTAMs, route selection, and chart/flight log preparation before walking out to actually fly what you've planned. Each XC after that should be more preplanned by the trainee, with the instructor doing less, until the last dual (or first solo) just involves the trainee doing all the planning and the instructor just checking the trainee's work.

This should have been explained by your instructor so there is less apprehension on your part. I suggest you call your instructor and discuss this right now so you can stop struggling with the issue.
 
Ron Levy said:
You shouldn't have to ask. The first dual XC should be planned together from start to finish, and then flown together. The instructor should have you walk in with nothing planned, and then spend a couple of hours going through the planning process, including weather, NOTAMs, route selection, and chart/flight log preparation before walking out to actually fly what you've planned. Each XC after that should be more preplanned by the trainee, with the instructor doing less, until the last dual (or first solo) just involves the trainee doing all the planning and the instructor just checking the trainee's work.

This should have been explained by your instructor so there is less apprehension on your part. I suggest you call your instructor and discuss this right now so you can stop struggling with the issue.
Click to expand...

This is correct....but since you are here trying to plan yourself...ask. You wont be able to plan 100% on your own for your first time. Heck, the first time I went through it, all the columns on the flight planning sheet melted my brain. I still need to review old flight plans for refreshers and I'm still a student pilot.

You may even create bad habits. You need to sit down with someone, preferably your instructor, and have them walk you though it.
 
Thanks Cap'n Ron and gitmo....My gut was telling me that a student pilot shouldn't be planning the whole thing on their own for the first time. We did meet for dinner and he went through picking checkpoints and calculating course correction, but we only briefly touched on calculating leg time, never talked about fuel or any other calculations. And he never even brought up top of climb or top of descent. I was able to figure those out myself, but God only knows it they're right.

I'm a little frustrated at my CFI for not providing better guidance with this. The last time I actually flew was 7/3 and I've basically been beating my head against a wall with flight planning since then. I brought it up with him about 2 weeks ago and told him I was struggling and that's when we met over dinner, but still didn't actually go through step by step and plan a flight.

I guess what I'll do is try to get some time with him this weekend and plan the flight and then go fly it like you're suggesting. Since I've already picked out a route and all the checkpoints, it should make it a little faster at least.
 
Yep as "Cap'n" said, your instructor should sit down and teach you the process, then do the first one with you. I usually spend 2 - 2.5 hours of ground time going over this with every student. You weren't born with this knowledge - someone has to teach you.
 
Go to iFlightPlanner.com they will let you use their tool for free for a month. It will generate a full navlog with fuel burn, true and mag headings, ETE etc for each leg. The tool lets you visually and easily create the entire plan using real sectionals.

Then, when you look at each leg, you can get a better feel for what the answer is supposed to look like. Reverse engineer it, as they say. You will learn it faster, and be more confident in your calcs doing it that way.

Go online and find the 172 gph number, dont bother with the POH. The tool lets you define that fuel burn and it uses it to calc the burn for each leg based on distance, KTAS etc.

And save yourself a TON of frustration. On my checkride I didn't do this work by hand, I used this tool. The DPE didn't even look at the navlog, I ended up having to fly part of the flight plan by pilotage, but at least I knew the answer when he asked 'how long to the first waypoint'. And then having to fly that leg and meet that number.
 
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The C172 w/180hp engine modification performance numbers, I found the POH online free. Printed and use, no problem.
 
hyphen81 said:
The first confusing thing is I asked for a copy of the POH for the airplane I regularly fly. My instructor sent me a POH for a 172 a few years older that has a 160HP engine. But the one I fly has a 180HP engine. Surely that has to make a difference in the performance of the airplane, so how am I supposed to be accurate in all these calculations if I'm using the wrong airplane from the get go?

Another example of something I'm struggling with is, I'm trying to find out how much fuel I'm going to use on each leg, so I'm looking at the cruise performance chart in the POH (see attached) and trying to figure out how to even read the damn thing is an exercise in futility. How do I know what pressure altitude would be if my desired altitude for the flight is 4500'? The chart is listed at 2300 lbs, but we'll be at about 1860 lbs. How do I extrapolate the right values from this?

Can anyone point me in the general direction of clarity, because I'm not even in the same hemisphere as clarity at this point. This has been by far the most frustrating part of flight training for me so far.

:mad2:
Click to expand...

1) You can find most POHs online- search for "172s pdf" and you'll find the correct POH pdf for your plane if it's a new-build 172. The "NAV II, NAV III, etc..." designation does not matter for the performance charts.

2) Not sure what the question is. If you are flying at 4500ft, and have tabulated values for 4000 and 6000, pick a throttle setting and estimated temperature and linearly interpolate between the values for 4000 and 6000 (draw a straight line between them and use that to get your values at 4500).

3) If you are planning your flight and you have charts for different weights, it is conservative to use the charts for the closest weight that is not *under* your actual flying weight. Remember, landing with a little too much gas is better than not enough!

4) Plan the flight and then fly the flight. The log is not the plane, so do your best, have your CFI review with you, and then gas up and monitor during the flight.
 
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Keep in mind this is a plan and plans change. So you want to be close but rarely will the numbers you write on your sheet be exactly what you find in the air (it is cool when it works that way though). They should be close enough though.
 
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hyphen81 said:
I guess what I'll do is try to get some time with him this weekend and plan the flight and then go fly it like you're suggesting. Since I've already picked out a route and all the checkpoints, it should make it a little faster at least.
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Do you have any of the well known ground school texts like Gleim, Machado, Gardner, Jepp, etc?

They all have sections on the topic you're struggling with and step by step instructions on how to work the problem and develop a usable plan and navigation log.
 
FastEddieB said:
I would have expected a student to show proficiency in planning a flight without computer assistance - except an E6B.

Is that being forgone now?
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I sure hope not.

I discovered over the weekend that Garmin Pilot doesn't count taxi fuel in its fuel planning.

Lots of silly bugs like that. While 1.7 gal (for a 182) isn't a huge amount of fuel, it's a sign that maybe those plans aren't all that careful.

When you do all this yourself, you can add in all the margins. Like an extra 10 minutes in the pattern because you know you're arriving at a busy towered airport. Or step-climbs because of Class B, which involve speed changes (you can add ~1 minute per 1000 feet as a rule of thumb, but there is no way to tell GP to do that).

In practice, the computer-planned flights are always significantly short on time estimate. The shorter ones and those with high altitudes (e.g., mountain crossings) are the worst. The reason is that I never get to cruise speed when the plan assumes I do.
 
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FastEddieB said:
I would have expected a student to show proficiency in planning a flight without computer assistance - except an E6B.

Is that being forgone now?
Click to expand...

I would think it depends on instructor, but as one data point, in my case it's all papyrus and sliding rulers.

Starting with the 2nd or 3rd I planned, I started cheating by creating a very simple spreadsheet in Excel. I put the distances, and then fill in the ground speed in each leg after getting the briefing, and it calculates times and fuel use without the need of the E6B. More accurate, and faster, but I still know how to do it with the ancient abacus just in case :D

As for performance data, the POH in the plane I fly (old 172) is a joke. The climb performance chart is particularly awful.
 
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DFH65 said:
Keep in mind this is a plan and plans change. So you want to be close but rarely will the numbers you write on your sheet be exactly what you find in the air (it is cool when it works that way though). They should be close enough though.
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While that is true that conditions change, I found that winds aloft information is very good if taken on the same day. In the end, if I stick to the calculated magnetic course and make the speed, I hit each reporting point within half a mile and a minute time. I often wondered how NOAA manage to get the information about the state of the atmosphere.
 
hyphen81 said:
I'm hitting a major wall in my flight training and I'm starting to get really frustrated. I'm trying to pan my dual cross country, and I'm really stuck on all the calculations. I'm struggling so much on this I don't even know where to begin to ask for help. :confused:

I've looked on youtube for videos describing the flight planning process in detail, but they all leave out the nitty gritty stuff, and a lot of them end up being for flight simulator, which is fine, but I'd feel better if they were from a flight school. I have the Jeppesen book, but it basically isn't worth the paper its written on when it comes to flight planning. I then bought Bob Gardner's book, "The Complete Private Pilot", which was more helpful, but I'm still just really lost. I met with my CFI and got a little more clarity on it, but I'm supposed to fly this dual cross country this weekend, and I don't know if I'm even going to be able to do anything but plot the checkpoints. I might have to cancel it and meet with my CFI again.

The first confusing thing is I asked for a copy of the POH for the airplane I regularly fly. My instructor sent me a POH for a 172 a few years older that has a 160HP engine. But the one I fly has a 180HP engine. Surely that has to make a difference in the performance of the airplane, so how am I supposed to be accurate in all these calculations if I'm using the wrong airplane from the get go?

Another example of something I'm struggling with is, I'm trying to find out how much fuel I'm going to use on each leg, so I'm looking at the cruise performance chart in the POH (see attached) and trying to figure out how to even read the damn thing is an exercise in futility. How do I know what pressure altitude would be if my desired altitude for the flight is 4500'? The chart is listed at 2300 lbs, but we'll be at about 1860 lbs. How do I extrapolate the right values from this?

Can anyone point me in the general direction of clarity, because I'm not even in the same hemisphere as clarity at this point. This has been by far the most frustrating part of flight training for me so far.

:mad2:
Click to expand...

In the flight planning process there are only two factors that you can rely on: the true course line you drew on the sectional and distances measured along that line with a plotter. Everything else is either forecast or based on a set of conditions that you can't possibly replicate. Even the magnetic variation printed on the sectional is questionable. Fuel burn figures in any POH are based on a brand new engine operated by a factory engineer/test pilot.

The flight log you are agonizing over is just a method of organization. Reality sets in when you check the time between your first two (and subsequent) checkpoints and calculate your actual groundspeed. If it is faster than your pre-flight estimate, you are fat for fuel; if it is slower, then you must pay more attention to fuel burn calculations down the road and, if you have not planned an extra hour's worth of fuel at the outset, you begin to think of landing short of your destination to get gas.

With regard to pressure altitude, this is impossible to do in advance because you need the altimeter setting at your departure airport at the time of departure. Just use the book numbers conservatively...that is, round up to the next highest published number when it comes to fuel burn. You are going to load fuel onto the plane using those figures (plus an extra hour's worth), and too much fuel is better than not enough.

Understand that there is no one at the destination airport staring at a clock and comparing its reading to your ETA. Your flight plan is a search-and-rescue tool, period: If you don't show up within 30 minutes of your ETA
 the FSS will issue an alert and begin calling airports along your filed route...they don't scramble searchers immediately unless you have said something on the radio about an actual or impending emergency.

In short, the degree of accuracy you seek is simply not available.


Thanks for using my book. I'll have to review that chapter to see where it fails to explain the process adequately.

Bob Gardner
 
bobmrg said:
In the flight planning process there are only two factors that you can rely on: the true course line you drew on the sectional and distances measured along that line with a plotter. Everything else is either forecast or based on a set of conditions that you can't possibly replicate. Even the magnetic variation printed on the sectional is questionable. Fuel burn figures in any POH are based on a brand new engine operated by a factory engineer/test pilot.

The flight log you are agonizing over is just a method of organization. Reality sets in when you check the time between your first two (and subsequent) checkpoints and calculate your actual groundspeed. If it is faster than your pre-flight estimate, you are fat for fuel; if it is slower, then you must pay more attention to fuel burn calculations down the road and, if you have not planned an extra hour's worth of fuel at the outset, you begin to think of landing short of your destination to get gas.

With regard to pressure altitude, this is impossible to do in advance because you need the altimeter setting at your departure airport at the time of departure. Just use the book numbers conservatively...that is, round up to the next highest published number when it comes to fuel burn. You are going to load fuel onto the plane using those figures (plus an extra hour's worth), and too much fuel is better than not enough.

Understand that there is no one at the destination airport staring at a clock and comparing its reading to your ETA. Your flight plan is a search-and-rescue tool, period: If you don't show up within 30 minutes of your ETA
 the FSS will issue an alert and begin calling airports along your filed route...they don't scramble searchers immediately unless you have said something on the radio about an actual or impending emergency.

In short, the degree of accuracy you seek is simply not available.


Thanks for using my book. I'll have to review that chapter to see where it fails to explain the process adequately.

Bob Gardner
Click to expand...

Thanks Bob, that's helpful. To be clear, I don't think your book fell short, I think the blame rests solely at the feet of the reader. I just wanted to be mention your book and the jepp book to prevent those who would surely say, "why didn't you read a book?" I've tried a couple of books and I'm still too dense to get it, so something else needs to happen.
 
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Caveat: I was just teaching this over the weekend....

Next caveat: You're absolutely right in wondering how & why, but you're also worrying too much. Don't panic. And get your CFI to work with you to create the flight plan, as many people here have strongly recommended.

Let's walk thru a simple but very generic example no fancy software needed, just a sectional, your fingers (and big toe for carry bit or a simple calculator if you prefer) and a plotter.

KUOS to KPVE, distance is 116 nm but let's make it 120 nm to make the math simpler at this point. It's pretty flat so let's assume 4500 MSL because KUOS is at 2000 MSL or there abouts.

Speed - 120 kts Remember, this is a very generic example. So what's special about 120 kts? 2 nm a minute. Makes the calculations really easy.

First estimate: 120 nm / 120 kts -> is what? An hour, right? Great, this gives us a ballpark that if the rest of the flight planning generates numbers much larger or smaller, we know we made a mistake someplace.

Now to ballpark the fuel. 180 HP trainer, based on the POH graphic, you can estimate worst case 8.5 gph. But most of us would never use that specific a number unless we had a fuel totalizer, so round it up to 9 gph. I fly a 180 HP and flight plan for 10 gph, knowing that's overkill but it also ensures I don't have fuel problems on a long flight.

An hour in flight, means 9 gallons. Again, our ballpark will let us know of something is seriously wrong.

Next question - what heading and which runway are you taking off from?
The direct heading is 287. If you're taking off to the SE, then you must add additional distance to turn around and head to Beech River.
Climb time? What is your climb speed to cruise? In other words, you're starting about 2000 MSL and climbing to 4500 MSL. Climb speed is slower than cruise and uses a bit more fuel in our trainers...Let's assume 90 kts and 500 fpm climb. 2500 ft from takeoff to cruise is 2500 ft, or 5 minutes.

90 kts * 5 minutes. But we're taking off in the direction of Beech River, so that will get us that much closer to our destination.

Go get the weather and look at TAFs, winds aloft and the METARs.
Remember the Wind Triangle? How will that affect your course and speed? Tailwind or headwind?

Next step - while in cruise, how far apart are your checkpoints? Do you define a checkpoint by distance or by time? Let's assume distance of 20 nm.

20 nm / 120 kts -> time between checkpoints. At 2 miles/minute this is.....10 minutes, right? For simplicity, start your checkpoints at some point after you reach cruise.

Next, what's your cruise RPM? Takeoff is always full RPM (2700 in the 180HP) but cruise might be 2400 rpm.

At your altitude, even on a warm day with higher DA, your speed & weight aren't going to be much of an issue in real life, probably not even noticeable except on paper and calculations to the right of the decimal point. If you were above 5000 MSL, maybe but you're not there. But you need to understand the calculations for your CFI and the checkride.

Next topic: Extrapolation which is nothing more than ratios using the numbers in your POH.
 
FastEddieB said:
I would have expected a student to show proficiency in planning a flight without computer assistance - except an E6B.

Is that being forgone now?
Click to expand...

My instructor stressed that and didn't miss an opportunity to verify that I knew how to use the E6B even in flight to calculate my actual fuel burn and ground speed.

I typically used an EFB to determine my true course and checkpoints because I could get more accurate information that way, but I always did my wind correction, ground speed, and fuel burn by hand with the E6B.

I used an electronic version of my flight plan once and that was more to see if it matched up with my calculations.
 
bobmrg said:
Fuel burn figures in any POH are based on a brand new engine operated by a factory engineer/test pilot.
Click to expand...

Using "average" pilot technique. Or so the Cessna POH says. I've managed to get very precise book numbers out of a 30+ year old 172 before.

bobmrg said:
If it is faster than your pre-flight estimate, you are fat for fuel; if it is slower, then you must pay more attention to fuel burn calculations down the road and, if you have not planned an extra hour's worth of fuel at the outset, you begin to think of landing short of your destination to get gas.
Click to expand...

There is a bit more to it than that. Sometimes, extra weight can be a problem. 182s, in particular, have a lower max landing weight than the max takeoff weight (150 lb difference for a 182T). That means you need to stay aloft for two hours after a max takeoff weight launch at full rental cruise power. Even if you get there early. And if you're going to high altitude, extra weight can adversely affect performance where it might be tight.

But your point that winds aloft is not knowable is very true, and it's by far the biggest source of error in these hyper-accurate flight plans. I've seen 20+ knot errors in that. It is, however, important to know how to account for it.
 
FastEddieB said:
My CFI has been expired for a while, but if you can make it over to Copperhill, TN, I'd be happy to go over any questions you may have and offer some tips and hints.

But, as suggested, for consistency this is something ideally reviewed with your current instructor.

It's important to know how to do this, but in real life few flights require the level of precision that you need to demonstrate for your license.

Anyway, let me know if I can be of service.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the Offer! If Copperhill was a bit closer I would DEFINITELY take you up on that!
 
MAKG1 said:
Using "average" pilot technique. Or so the Cessna POH says. I've managed to get very precise book numbers out of a 30+ year old 172 before.



There is a bit more to it than that. Sometimes, extra weight can be a problem. 182s, in particular, have a lower max landing weight than the max takeoff weight (150 lb difference for a 182T). That means you need to stay aloft for two hours after a max takeoff weight launch at full rental cruise power. Even if you get there early. And if you're going to high altitude, extra weight can adversely affect performance where it might be tight.

But your point that winds aloft is not knowable is very true, and it's by far the biggest source of error in these hyper-accurate flight plans. I've seen 20+ knot errors in that. It is, however, important to know how to account for it.
Click to expand...

Where I learned it is lost in the mists of time (or my mind), but once upon a time I learned that until the actual wind, reported by a sonde or properly equipped plane, varied by more than 15 degrees from the direction in the Winds Aloft Forecast, the NWS did not issue a correction. There was a similar wiggle-room for wind velocity, too, but I can't recall what it was. IMHO, the Winds and Temperatures Aloft Forecast is useful only for knowledge exams; for real life, use the Skew-T....which is also a forecast, but a more accurate one.

Bob
 
ATP guys are so far from hand calcs many of them can't even fly pilotage, deviate from canned IFR flight plans, or even tell you how the E6B works anymore. And when these guys retire and still want to fly, most of them would be no different than a raw GA student all over again.
 
FastEddieB said:
I would have expected a student to show proficiency in planning a flight without computer assistance - except an E6B.

Is that being forgone now?
Click to expand...
That's up to the instructor. The FAA does not require that you use a manual slide-rule type device to do your flight planning for a practical test, and Lord knows these days pretty much nobody does it that way after they pass that test. Personally, I'm with the head of AFS-800 (General Aviation and Commercial Division, which writes the Part 61 rules and sets practical test policy) on this when he said, "We want to see you do it on the practical test the same way you'll do it the next day with your new license, so we can see if you'll be doing it safely then when we're not watching."
 
CTLSi said:
ATP guys are so far from hand calcs many of them can't even fly pilotage, deviate from canned IFR flight plans, or even tell you how the E6B works anymore.
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I'm an ATP, and I'll bet you any amount you like that I can do all of those things.
 
Ron Levy said:
...Personally, I'm with the head of AFS-800 (General Aviation and Commercial Division, which writes the Part 61 rules and sets practical test policy) on this when he said, "We want to see you do it on the practical test the same way you'll do it the next day with your new license, so we can see if you'll be doing it safely then when we're not watching."
Click to expand...

You're not going to try and go THERE again, are you Ron? To refresh your memory..I do not disagree with the concept. However you've never been able to show where AFS-800 has ever put that in writing to the DPE's other than some vague email reference. If a Private Pilot applicant shows up for the practical test with no other flight planning other than what he has on his iPad with Foreflight, he's in for a rough ride.

Cheers,

Mike
 
CTLSi said:
ATP guys are so far from hand calcs many of them can't even fly pilotage, deviate from canned IFR flight plans, or even tell you how the E6B works anymore. And when these guys retire and still want to fly, most of them would be no different than a raw GA student all over again.
Click to expand...

Wrong.

Mike
 
MikeELP said:
You're not going to try and go THERE again, are you Ron? To refresh your memory..I do not disagree with the concept. However you've never been able to show where AFS-800 has ever put that in writing to the DPE's other than some vague email reference.
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Then please show me the regulation, FAA Order, or practical test standard requiring the use of a manual slide-rule type computer and paper logs on a Private Pilot practical test.

That's right -- there isn't any.

Since examiners aren't allowed to make up their own rules, they cannot require the use of a manual slide-rule type computer and paper logs on any practical test, including Private Pilot. As long as you show up with sufficient tools to do the job and the information required by the PTS and perform the tasks required by the PTS, you've done your part. Any doubts on this, ask the FSDO.

If a Private Pilot applicant shows up for the practical test with no other flight planning other than what he has on his iPad with Foreflight, he's in for a rough ride.
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Only if the examiner is making up his/her own rules.

That said, if the only charts you have are in your one iPad, you could be in trouble, since the examiner is free to test your ability to operate in event that iPad fails. But if you have an independent backup (paper, second iPad, charts in your G1000, whatever), you're good to go unless the examiner wants to create grounds for an appeal of a bust.
 
Ron Levy said:
Then please show me the regulation, FAA Order, or practical test standard requiring the use of a manual slide-rule type computer and paper logs on a Private Pilot practical test.

That's right -- there isn't any.

Since examiners aren't allowed to make up their own rules, they cannot require the use of a manual slide-rule type computer and paper logs on any practical test, including Private Pilot. As long as you show up with sufficient tools to do the job and the information required by the PTS and perform the tasks required by the PTS, you've done your part. Any doubts on this, ask the FSDO.

Only if the examiner is making up his/her own rules.

That said, if the only charts you have are in your one iPad, you could be in trouble, since the examiner is free to test your ability to operate in event that iPad fails. But if you have an independent backup (paper, second iPad, charts in your G1000, whatever), you're good to go unless the examiner wants to create grounds for an appeal of a bust.
Click to expand...


:mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:

Good grief, you are so stubborn, Ron. Not surprising. And yet we agree on a great many things. Weird.

Mike
 
Hi Jon. A lot of good advice here. I especially liked the outline Write-stuff posted. That would get you there, or at least that is the way I was taught and have only been lost once :). Regrettably, I didn't have Bob's book available.

One thing I always kept in mind -- this is supposed to be fun!
 
hyphen81 said:
I'm hitting a major wall in my flight training and I'm starting to get really frustrated. I'm trying to pan my dual cross country, and I'm really stuck on all the calculations. I'm struggling so much on this I don't even know where to begin to ask for help. :confused:

I've looked on youtube for videos describing the flight planning process in detail, but they all leave out the nitty gritty stuff, and a lot of them end up being for flight simulator, which is fine, but I'd feel better if they were from a flight school. I have the Jeppesen book, but it basically isn't worth the paper its written on when it comes to flight planning. I then bought Bob Gardner's book, "The Complete Private Pilot", which was more helpful, but I'm still just really lost. I met with my CFI and got a little more clarity on it, but I'm supposed to fly this dual cross country this weekend, and I don't know if I'm even going to be able to do anything but plot the checkpoints. I might have to cancel it and meet with my CFI again.

The first confusing thing is I asked for a copy of the POH for the airplane I regularly fly. My instructor sent me a POH for a 172 a few years older that has a 160HP engine. But the one I fly has a 180HP engine. Surely that has to make a difference in the performance of the airplane, so how am I supposed to be accurate in all these calculations if I'm using the wrong airplane from the get go?

Another example of something I'm struggling with is, I'm trying to find out how much fuel I'm going to use on each leg, so I'm looking at the cruise performance chart in the POH (see attached) and trying to figure out how to even read the damn thing is an exercise in futility. How do I know what pressure altitude would be if my desired altitude for the flight is 4500'? The chart is listed at 2300 lbs, but we'll be at about 1860 lbs. How do I extrapolate the right values from this?

Can anyone point me in the general direction of clarity, because I'm not even in the same hemisphere as clarity at this point. This has been by far the most frustrating part of flight training for me so far.

:mad2:
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Hmmm, Are you doing this on your own ahead of your instructor, or did your instructor assign you this unsupervised? Want to plan your fuel and time? Draw your line on the sectional. Now take pinkey and forefinger like this dude :rockon: and place them on two lines of latitude in a perpendicular fashion. That measures 30nm. Now that you have been handed the wrong book is pretty inexcusable in my view if you are assigned to plan a particular flight. As an exercise it doesn't really matter what numbers you use so the 160hp book is fine.

So, lets take your 180hp plane does 120kts on 10gph. So it covers 2 miles a minute and will cover 30nm every 15 minutes using 2.5 gallons of fuel to do so. So now you can gauge both time and fuel consumption very accurately in the cockpit with no tools except the chart and your 2 fingers and walk them along the chart to your destination. To can also interpolate your heading within 10° by looking at your finger angle to a line of latitude or longitude.

This with a couple gouges on climb fuel will get you close enough for real world planning. It will not be what you want to show the DE on the sheet you work out for them. Where you show this is on the diversion in the air. Be ready to be diverted to an airport you can't make, DE did that to me. Within 15 seconds I told him I couldn't make it on my fuel and I told him I could make a different airport in that direction and turned to the hill it was at the foot of. He asked how I figured that so quickly and I walked my fingers across the chart calling out times and gallons pointing to where we would run out of fuel. The DE went into 'teaching mode' after that.
 
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It ain't hard but for some people it is impossible to learn from a book or video. If that is you get with an instructor and figure it out. Easy, have fun.
 
My CFIs told me I will use paper logs, E6B, calculator, plotter, maps ect during my practical. Now in their defense I didn't specify if I 'have to' or try to disseminate it as if I was some type of Aviation Attorney setting up a case to use my Ipad. So I'll keep using these, get my ticket and then decide what I want to use... probably a 430 with a backup Ipad with a backup Iphone with a back up dash mounted abacus and stone tablets (Included in the W&B of course).

Last night I did my initial flight planning for two cross countries I'm doing Friday. This thread was extremely helpful to me, especially the checklist that someone posted. Even having done it before it still took me over an hour to plot the course, find checkpoints, put the AFD info on the sheet, ect. Each Leg is 100NM and the flight back will be Night so it introduced some new challenges. All in all I appreciate this post.
 
MikeELP said:
:mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2: :mad2:

Good grief, you are so stubborn, Ron. Not surprising. And yet we agree on a great many things. Weird.

Mike
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On this issue, you are the one stubbornly insisting there's a requirement which doesn't seem to exist in any regulation, Order, or PTS. I pointed out what AFS-800 said merely to provide background as to why there's no such requirement.
 
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Ron Levy said:
On this issue, you are the one stubbornly insisting there's a requirement which doesn't seem to exist in any regulation, Order, or PTS.
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He didn't say there was a requirement, he said they were in for a rough ride, and you pointed out why. The examiner is free to fail any piece of equipment to see if you know how to deal without having it. If you show up with an E-6B and paper log with math on it, a lot of that gets precluded having demonstrated prior knowledge. The potential result being an easier ride by being prepared the old fashioned way along with the new.
 
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