Looking at buying a plane a long way from me, quesions

bigred177

bigred177

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bigred
I am looking at a Piper Traumahawk based 2,000 miles away in Somersworth, NH. I've been doing some reading about the airplane buying process but there are a few things I'm wondering about.

The airplane has been out of annual for two years. This means I would have to annual it before I took it on a test flight.
- Do I bring my mechanic out to NH to annual it or use a local mech?
- Do I bring my mech. out and get a ferry permit to get it home where I can do an owner assisted annual and ease the pain? I guess this means no test flight
- Do I use a local to get a ferry permit to fly it home? And no test flight here too

Where do I go to order the FAA history DVD for this plane? I got on their site and the link didn't fall into my lap.

So basically where I am now is: get the dvd, have someone give the plane a once over to see if it's even worth pursuing, call a mechanic up there or get my mechanic up there to start looking at logs (seller doesn't have them scanned), pre-buy/annual (whatever gets decided from above), fly up there and fly it home.

What am I missing?
 
bigred177 said:
I am looking at a Piper Traumahawk based 2,000 miles away in Somersworth, NH. I've been doing some reading about the airplane buying process but there are a few things I'm wondering about.

The airplane has been out of annual for two years. This means I would have to annual it before I took it on a test flight.
- Do I bring my mechanic out to NH to annual it or use a local mech?
- Do I bring my mech. out and get a ferry permit to get it home where I can do an owner assisted annual and ease the pain? I guess this means no test flight
- Do I use a local to get a ferry permit to fly it home? And no test flight here too

Where do I go to order the FAA history DVD for this plane? I got on their site and the link didn't fall into my lap.

So basically where I am now is: get the dvd, have someone give the plane a once over to see if it's even worth pursuing, call a mechanic up there or get my mechanic up there to start looking at logs (seller doesn't have them scanned), pre-buy/annual (whatever gets decided from above), fly up there and fly it home.

What am I missing?
Click to expand...

Here is an idea.

Arrange for an A&P one airport over to do a lookover at the home airport and then a complete prebuy at his airport. Get a ferry permit for that short flight = test flight.

What about insurance?
 
Given that I just tried to do the same thing (TODAY) on a plane IN ANNUAL.

RUN.

For a Tomahawk out of annual for 2 years 2,000 miles away. I can't see it making much sense financially.
 
bartmc said:
Given that I just tried to do the same thing (TODAY) on a plane IN ANNUAL.

RUN.

For a Tomahawk out of annual for 2 years 2,000 miles away. I can't see it making much sense financially.
Click to expand...

Unless its damn cheap I agree
 
bartmc said:
Given that I just tried to do the same thing (TODAY) on a plane IN ANNUAL.

RUN.

For a Tomahawk out of annual for 2 years 2,000 miles away. I can't see it making much sense financially.
Click to expand...

I agree. Out of annual and probably uninsured is a lot of trouble for a common airplane unless the price is really low and that brings up other issues.
 
Well, it is really cheap. That's why I'm even considering doing it. According to the owner it has a new 77 SMOH engine and the reason he's selling is because of family illness such that he won't be interested in flying anymore.

Just to get this out of the way; I am not disagreeing with anyone here telling me not to do it. But it is a really good deal so I will throw out options that seem like I'm ignoring your advice. I'm not just looking for what I want to hear, but I am looking HARD at whether to do it or not.

If I insure it before I take it flying is there still the same issue of insurance yall are talking about?
 
if OP want's to continue. I wouldn't be getting someone's plane airworthy on the other side of the country without an escrow account and solid pre-buy agreement with BOTH parties putting money in it. i.e. he's going to stick enough in there to cover my butt on the annual.
Suppose you have a mechanic tear the plane apart and it's chocked full of corrosion, the seller won't pay to fix it and your mechanic won't put it back together? Then what?

Order the FAA CD for 10 bucks (Just go the FAA N-Number search site, when you find the plane, there' a link to order a CD)

You'll also want to do a lien search, there's a list on the FAAs site as well of 30 or so companies in OKC that perform this.
 
Skylane81E said:
Unless its damn cheap I agree
Click to expand...
What I have found in airplane hunting is that if it is really that cheap to seem like a good option.....there is most likely a real good reason it has been out of annual for two years....
 
bigred177 said:
Well, it is really cheap. That's why I'm even considering doing it. According to the owner it has a new 77 SMOH engine and the reason he's selling is because of family illness such that he won't be interested in flying anymore.

Just to get this out of the way; I am not disagreeing with anyone here telling me not to do it. But it is a really good deal so I will throw out options that seem like I'm ignoring your advice. I'm not just looking for what I want to hear, but I am looking HARD at whether to do it or not.

If I insure it before I take it flying is there still the same issue of insurance yall are talking about?
Click to expand...
Thing you need to ask is....when you add up the cost of getting a long distance plane inspected, getting the annual completed, getting it back to your home field, all the travel involved.....is it still going to be that great of a deal? There are lots of cheap less than $25k airplanes for sale these days that are probably closer to you and already airworthy.

What you don't want to do is buy cheap only to find that in the end it cost you a whole lot more to have what you could have found closer to home.
 
Yes, keep in mind, even if you buy it cheap, you are going to spend some money to transport it 2,000 miles and you will definately need to put some money into it, even with a low time engine (it has been sitting for 2 years). It may not add up.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Thing you need to ask is....when you add up the cost of getting a long distance plane inspected, getting the annual completed, getting it back to your home field, all the travel involved.....is it still going to be that great of a deal? There are lots of cheap less than $25k airplanes for sale these days that are probably closer to you and already airworthy.

What you don't want to do is buy cheap only to find that in the end it cost you a whole lot more to have what you could have found closer to home.
Click to expand...

True, but this plane is currently <$10k and it has a new engine. It has been at a tie down in NH for 2 years. The owner claims to have taken it down and run it up regularly in the warmer months.

I can and like to do a lot of my own work. So if I can do supervised maintenance to cut down on the labor costs buying a plane that's functional will work for me.

I will be out an airline ticket if I go look at it but I have family out there I need to visit anyway and the cost to get the plane home is the same as 16 hours I would have flown it somewhere else.
 
bartmc said:
if OP want's to continue. I wouldn't be getting someone's plane airworthy on the other side of the country without an escrow account and solid pre-buy agreement with BOTH parties putting money in it. i.e. he's going to stick enough in there to cover my butt on the annual.
Suppose you have a mechanic tear the plane apart and it's chocked full of corrosion, the seller won't pay to fix it and your mechanic won't put it back together? Then what?
Click to expand...

Good points. Does anyone have a link to a good pre-buy agreement?

What's a reasonable contribution from both parties on something like this?
 
bigred177 said:
True, but this plane is currently <$10k and it has a new engine. It has been at a tie down in NH for 2 years. The owner claims to have taken it down and run it up regularly in the warmer months.

I can and like to do a lot of my own work. So if I can do supervised maintenance to cut down on the labor costs buying a plane that's functional will work for me.

I will be out an airline ticket if I go look at it but I have family out there I need to visit anyway and the cost to get the plane home is the same as 16 hours I would have flown it somewhere else.
Click to expand...

Well, that price sounds good. Why don't you just execute a purchase agreement contingent on your prebuy and pay for a thorough prebuy? Rather then jump through hoops and get all clever. Arrange with the mechanic for the prebuy to continue to an annual if purchase is completed, insure it, and fly it home.
 
alfadog said:
Well, that price sounds good. Why don't you just execute a purchase agreement contingent on your prebuy and pay for a thorough prebuy? Rather then jump through hoops and get all clever. Arrange with the mechanic for the prebuy to continue to an annual if purchase is completed, insure it, and fly it home.
Click to expand...

Trust me, I'm looking to just through as few hoops as possible. That's why I come and ask you guys about anything airplane related :)

Where are you seeing more hoops than necessary? I read a lot on here people saying to use the mech. who is going to be doing the maintenance for your pre-buy so you can get a good estimate on price for an annual. That's where that question is coming from.
 
I'd find someone nearby to do a $400 pre-buy. have em pull panels, run a compression check and give the log books a glance. Then, get their honest opinion on it. at a 4 figure price, I'd probably take it at that and live a little :). Make sure there's no liens on it though.
 
bigred177 said:
Trust me, I'm looking to just through as few hoops as possible. That's why I come and ask you guys about anything airplane related :)

Where are you seeing more hoops than necessary? I read a lot on here people saying to use the mech. who is going to be doing the maintenance for your pre-buy so you can get a good estimate on price for an annual. That's where that question is coming from.
Click to expand...

It seemed there was some hoopiness to get in a test flight as an early prereq. :D

I am not all that experienced so will defer to those that are. How important is a test flight if the prebuy sans flight looks good? Can a mechanic test fly an airplane that is out of annual without a ferry permit as part of maintenance? Would his insurance cover it if it is not otherwise insured?
 
bartmc said:
I'd find someone nearby to do a $400 pre-buy. have em pull panels, run a compression check and give the log books a glance. Then, get their honest opinion on it. at a 4 figure price, I'd probably take it at that and live a little :). Make sure there's no liens on it though.
Click to expand...


Don't skimp on the prebuy. I bought a bargain prebuy on my Arrow at $600 and wished I had spent twice that.
 
Heh, I'm going to have more money in the pre-buy and inspections than I paid for the plane.
 
bigred177 said:
Heh, I'm going to have more money in the pre-buy and inspections than I paid for the plane.
Click to expand...

At that price you need to because there's a hell of a good chance the next annual will cost three times that....
 
Maybe I missed it but when was this "new" engine installed. I've pulled a couple engines with similar hours. Two years out of service can kill the engine.
 
alfadog said:
Don't skimp on the prebuy. I bought a bargain prebuy on my Arrow at $600 and wished I had spent twice that.
Click to expand...

OPs buying a project, he knows it (most of us are too but we're in denial) :)

No need to dig too deep, look for the big ticket items and take it home.
 
Do you really want to fly a plane that you don't know inside and out 2000 miles...especially if it's been out of annual for two years? Not me! Especially a Traumahawk.
 
The 77 hour engine after sitting for two years if it wasn't put into storage properly, may not be a 77 hour engine anymore.
 
I'm an A&P-IA I could fly there do the annual, and be legal to fly it home, But any Piper Tomahawk that has set for 2 years with only being run occasionally would be a BIG RED FLAG. and not knowing if the "T" tail ADs were done right would be another BIG RED FLAG.

And knowing they are under powered and slow would be the last straw

Nope .... no thanks.

Cheap aircraft are the ones you can't afford.

If you want cheap flying, easy to operate, and able to take 2 to lunch try these

http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_670554_+93'+Rutan+Varieze+O-200.html
 
Last edited:
MickYoumans said:
Do you really want to fly a plane that you don't know inside and out 2000 miles...especially if it's been out of annual for two years? Not me! Especially a Traumahawk.
Click to expand...

It's part of how I make a living, no worries, that's what preflight is about, determining the plane's airworthiness; I trust myself well enough to do that. BTW, what makes a Tomahawk a risk worthy of denoting 'especially'?
 
bigred177 said:
True, but this plane is currently <$10k and it has a new engine. It has been at a tie down in NH for 2 years. The owner claims to have taken it down and run it up regularly in the warmer months.
Click to expand...

Many will tell you that a ground run-up will not get the oil hot enough to boil out the accumulated water (condensed from combustion gas blow-by - even on a new engine). Therefore what the owner has done was at best, not helpful.

-Skip
 
Tom-D said:
I'm an A&P-IA I could fly there do the annual, and be legal to fly it home, But any Piper Tomahawk that has set for 2 years with only being run occasionally would be a BIG RED FLAG. and not knowing if the "T" tail ADs were done right would be another BIG RED FLAG.

And knowing they are under powered and slow would be the last straw

Nope .... no thanks.

Cheap aircraft are the ones you can't afford.

If you want cheap flying, easy to operate, and able to take 2 to lunch try these

http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_670554_+93'+Rutan+Varieze+O-200.html
Click to expand...

The tail ADs are what had me most worried too. I think I'm not going to to it. It's too far away for my first purchase and if the there was any big maintenance I likely couldn't afford it.

The problem with the small Rutan aircraft is that I'm a big guy and they are...not made for us big'uns.
 
Skip Miller said:
Many will tell you that a ground run-up will not get the oil hot enough to boil out the accumulated water (condensed from combustion gas blow-by - even on a new engine). Therefore what the owner has done was at best, not helpful.

-Skip
Click to expand...

That was my first thought as well.
 
alfadog said:
Here is an idea.

Arrange for an A&P one airport over to do a lookover at the home airport and then a complete prebuy at his airport. Get a ferry permit for that short flight = test flight.

What about insurance?
Click to expand...
You will not get approval for a ferry permit for any other purpose other than taking it from where it IS to where it can be worked on. Even then it will be contingent on it being inspected by a mechanic and approved as safe for the hop. Do not mention "test flying" to the FAA if you want permit.
 
Henning said:
BTW, what makes a Tomahawk a risk worthy of denoting 'especially'?
Click to expand...

When I used the word 'especially' I was really referring to the fact it is a very common plane and you should be able to find something equal or better closer by where you can go look at it thououghly before buying. Not so much that I was singling out a Tomahawk. I would have the same apprehension going 2000 miles to get a C150. I also was in aggrement with all of the things NC19143 said in the post above yours about the "T" tail AD's, underpowered, etc.
 
Tomahawk is no worse than any other little crap underpowered trainer IMO.
 
I rather enjoyed the Tomahawk as an aircraft. It was laid out well, flew great, and was forgiving as a trainer.
 
flyingron said:
You will not get approval for a ferry permit for any other purpose other than taking it from where it IS to where it can be worked on. Even then it will be contingent on it being inspected by a mechanic and approved as safe for the hop. Do not mention "test flying" to the FAA if you want permit.
Click to expand...

So can you get a ferry permit to take it to another airport for a prebuy? If so, then my idea would work.
 
bigred177 said:
The tail ADs are what had me most worried too. I think I'm not going to to it. It's too far away for my first purchase and if the there was any big maintenance I likely couldn't afford it.

The problem with the small Rutan aircraft is that I'm a big guy and they are...not made for us big'uns.
Click to expand...

Are the tail ADs not done? That is easy to verify.
 
alfadog said:
So can you get a ferry permit to take it to another airport for a prebuy?

NO..... the FAA does not know what a Prebuy is.


If so, then my idea would work.
Click to expand...

Nope, what happens when you decide to walk, can the owner then get a ferry permit to get it home?

Any A&P can sign the ferry permit, then A&P-IA at the next airport over finds a safety of flight issue and drops a bomb in the log book ,,,,, now what?

or

they spread the aircraft all over the hangar and refuse to put it back together again until you fix all these discrepancies?

How would you like to be the seller under these circumstances ??????
 
Tom-D said:
Nope, what happens when you decide to walk, can the owner then get a ferry permit to get it home?

Any A&P can sign the ferry permit, then A&P-IA at the next airport over finds a safety of flight issue and drops a bomb in the log book ,,,,, now what?

or

they spread the aircraft all over the hangar and refuse to put it back together again until you fix all these discrepancies?

How would you like to be the seller under these circumstances ??????
Click to expand...

I would not but we am not talking to the owner here, we are talking to a prospective buyer. I think the buyer needs to look out for his interest and the owner needs to looks out for his own.
 
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