Logging time

EdFred said:
So why is pushing back early from the gate OK, knowing there's a ground stop and you're going to sit for a couple hours?
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Not only is it "okay" to log it, unlike in part 91 ops, it is REQUIRED to be logged as flight time toward the flight time limits of part 117.

EdFred said:
My brother is amazed at the number of 11:45pm arrivals that mysteriously arrive at 12:05am so the pilots can clock another day of per diem.
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Per diem is paid by the minute, not the day. Arriving at 12:05 am instead of 11:45 pm gets you twenty extra minutes of per diem. Also, per diem only stops if the arrival is at the pilot's domicile which typically isn't a smaller Class C airport. If they aren't at their domicile the per diem continues until the end of their trip. Arriving 20 minutes late mid-trip doesn't change anything.
 
Larry in TN said:
Not only is it "okay" to log it, unlike in part 91 ops, it is REQUIRED to be logged as flight time toward the flight time limits of part 117.


Per diem is paid by the minute, not the day. Arriving at 12:05 am instead of 11:45 pm gets you twenty extra minutes of per diem. Also, per diem only stops if the arrival is at the pilot's domicile which typically isn't a smaller Class C airport. If they aren't at their domicile the per diem continues until the end of their trip. Arriving 20 minutes late mid-trip doesn't change anything.
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With their company it's per day. 135 ops. And the C is the home base. I see you conveniently didn't quote the 135 part. Figures.
 
Henning said:
I think you would find difficulty getting a Fed to call a 2 hr ramp hold "flight time", but I may be wrong.
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In FAR 117, we have limits to how many hours of 'flight time' we can have in a day. Here's a link to 117.11 if you're curious:

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...0c338&node=pt14.3.117&rgn=div5#se14.3.117_111

Table A (at the bottom of the page) is what's relevant for the kind of flying I do, and usually the 9 hour limit is what I'm working under. Anyway, the FAA sees this 'flight time' as block out to block in - so if I'm out de-icing, sitting in a pad waiting out a ground stop, or if I just stop the plane on the taxiway momentarily to scratch my balls - it all counts. :)

Like I said before, I don't disagree with you (or Ed) in spirit, but it's just too much of a PITA to separate it out, and in the big scheme of things, it's a too small a number to really even matter - at least to me.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Well, now you are starting to make Ed Fred's argument. But at that stage in one's career, flight time doesn't mean as much and I don't think the Fed's are interested in making a big deal about it.
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There is a point to Ed's argument, most people would put a limit on it it themselves. Ed just draws the line of acceptable at a different point. Lets stick to Pt-91 for example, you will find very few people who would think taxi time as typical in the direct process of getting ready and in position to fly with no significant delays to be outside the spirit of the rule. I think the example I give would be the most common choice people would make. You count all the time except for what you sit no the ramp delayed for. This is also the simplified conclusion to defend and record because it will be what shows up in the Hobbs.

135 & 121 and such, these distinctions become more critical due to operational limitations, but PT-91, pfft, who cares it's just a few hours here and there in the end of it. Their karma hit is of greater potential consequence.
 
kayoh190 said:
In FAR 117, we have limits to how many hours of 'flight time' we can have in a day. Here's a link to 117.11 if you're curious:

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...0c338&node=pt14.3.117&rgn=div5#se14.3.117_111

Table A (at the bottom of the page) is what's relevant for the kind of flying I do, and usually the 9 hour limit is what I'm working under. Anyway, the FAA sees this 'flight time' as block out to block in - so if I'm out de-icing, sitting in a pad waiting out a ground stop, or if I just stop the plane on the taxiway momentarily to scratch my balls - it all counts. :)

Like I said before, I don't disagree with you (or Ed) in spirit, but it's just too much of a PITA to separate it out, and in the big scheme of things, it's a too small a number to really even matter - at least to me.
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Exactly when you are a working pilot it starts to make a difference, and typically you would want to exclude flying hours that you are getting paid to sit for anyway, so Ed's point becomes moot for working pilots.
 
Henning said:
Where is the rule that states which you have to log, Tach, Hobbs, or Watch, time?:dunno:
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The rule is as I quoted, nothing more, nothing less, and doesn't specify the tool to be used to measure the time "that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing". So, if you check the Hobbs meter, wrist watch, panel clock, or any other device which records time at the rate of one minute per minute when the aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight, and again when it comes to rest after landing, and you log the time elapsed between the two, that would be completely compliant with the regulation. However, I know of no tachometers which measure time like that (only engine revolutions), so those would not be appropriate to the task.
 
acrophile said:
That's not the FAA's definition of "moves".
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Perhaps you can share what you think the FAA's definition of "moves" is in this context (logging of flight time in one's pilot logbook for compliance with 61.51), and the source from which you obtained that definition. Personally, I'm not familiar with any such definition.
 
Why must people make even the simplest things soo complicated :dunno:
 
How many hours do I need logged to be old and salty enough to argue about this?... And how do I log them? Currently at 74 Hobbs, not sure on Tach or Taxi but that's offset by 17,000 zen hours from thinking of flying planes.
 
OkieAviator said:
How many hours do I need logged to be old and salty enough to argue about this?... And how do I log them? Currently at 74 Hobbs, not sure on Tach or Taxi but that's offset by 17,000 zen hours from thinking of flying planes.
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If you drove past the airport and thought about flying, log it.
 
Henning said:
Where is the rule that states which you have to log, Tach, Hobbs, or Watch, time?:dunno:
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Ron Levy said:
The rule is as I quoted, nothing more, nothing less, and doesn't specify the tool to be used to measure the time "that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing". So, if you check the Hobbs meter, wrist watch, panel clock, or any other device which records time at the rate of one minute per minute when the aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight, and again when it comes to rest after landing, and you log the time elapsed between the two, that would be completely compliant with the regulation. However, I know of no tachometers which measure time like that (only engine revolutions), so those would not be appropriate to the task.
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In contrast to "Hobbs time" or "Hobbs," don't people often say "tach time" or just "tach" to refer to the time that comes from the odometer-like hour meter that turns only when the engine RPM gets above a certain threshhold?
 
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register@teamandras.com said:
In contrast to "Hobbs," don't people often say "tach time" or just "tach" to refer to the time that comes from the odometer-like hour meter that turns only when the engine RPM gets above a certain threshhold?
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On a mechanical tach, if the engine is turning, the hour meter on the tach is turning. The "certain RPM" is the rpm at which a tach hour = a hobbs hour.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
On a mechanical tach, if the engine is turning, the hour meter on the tach is turning. The "certain RPM" is the rpm at which a tach hour = a hobbs hour.
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OK. I guess I was mistaken. I thought "tach time" was usually a little less than Hobbs time because the tach time wasn't advancing if the engine was just idling.

One of my school's plane had some sort of "tach time" and I swore that I remember that, after a flight, it had only moved something like 1.1, whereas the Hobbs had moved something like 1.4.
 
If the Fan is turning you are PIC.
 
RotorAndWing said:
These "Can I log this?" threads are an amazing exercise in mental masturbation.
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Can we actually log time spent masturbating?
If so, that is going to change a lot.


Edit: for the record the intent here was not the old "Can I log PIC" or whatever else. I was just totaling up what my cert cost (I know. Don't do that) And I realize my CFI was filling out my logbook based on hobbs and as a pilot, I don't do that.

I didn't realize people do it so many different ways (logging time, not masturbating).
 
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paflyer said:
Can't understand why you would do that. Of course there's no requirement after getting your PPL to log anything if you have no intentions of earning other ratings.
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How would you show an inspector that you were night or passenger current?
 
Henning said:
It doesn't matter what type you climb into, it's 100hrs in type to hit 'best rate'.
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Incorrect. Not all types.

100 hours in airplanes (strangely gliders don't count, and neither do helicopters) and 10 "in type" for a C-182 with our underwriter. C182, C182T, C182RG, and T182T all considered "in type" and can be combined to reach the 10 hours, per the insurance company.

(I was 1.9 hours short of 10 when I wanted to join the co-ownership LLC and the rental club's C-182 was down for MX. I therefore checked and then did 2 hours in their 182RG which was significantly cheaper and less of a hassle than paying the LLC the difference in insurance for a full year and exactly half the paperwork, since the policy would be re-issued twice in that first year, once before 2 hours more PIC and once after.)

Rates don't get any better for IR, or any specialized training programs or Wings. Nor do they change for Commercial rating or ATP ratings. Only commercial operation changes it. (Drastically.)

Zero rate change from best rate as long as all pilots have the above hours, and no commercial ops are being done. Instruction of a named insured by a CFI does not constitute a commercial op.

Rate hasn't significantly changed in a long time and hovers at roughly $100/mo for three named insureds, one Private non-IR, one Private IR, and one Comm'l IR. Statement of medical required annually but medical could be lost and regained in between and since you're not flying anyway, nothing changes. Basically the medical is a "snapshot" at the time of renewal. No requirement to notify.

No changes ever seen for low numbers of hours, but we suspect rate would climb for high hours, since they ask for numbers every year. We've all had years over 100 hours each and years where we should have rented. Ha.

Overall and IR currency is not asked for on the form.

Open pilot clause is generally low enough any but the wettest behind the ears CFI wouldn't have the hours, at 250 I believe. I'd have to check that one.

Basically appears to be structured to keep new Private Pilots or low time CFIs who want coverage as PIC from borrowing or otherwise being covered as PIC without being named and having 100 hours in airplanes plus the 10 in type. This could hamper a non-Current pilot who needs the CFI to act as PIC with a low time CFI, but they could be added as named insured if they had 100 + 10 in type. Not too many CFIs are that low.

PIC is the all-important key item, in all the policy wording. PIC must meet the policy requirements.
 
10 hrs gets you 'checked out', it does not get you 'best rate' even in a 152.
 
register@teamandras.com said:
In contrast to "Hobbs time" or "Hobbs," don't people often say "tach time" or just "tach" to refer to the time that comes from the odometer-like hour meter that turns only when the engine RPM gets above a certain threshhold?
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I think someone misexplained the tach "hour-meter" to you. The so-called "tach time" indicator is strictly a revolution counter calibrated to indicate one hour every some-number of revolutions.

For example, in the AA-5B Tigers, the tach is calibrated to read 1 tach hour per clock hour at 2556 RPM, i.e., it rolls over 1.00 hours every 2556*60 = 153360 revolutions. If you're turning only 850 RPM, that means it rolls over about 0.33 tach hours every clock hour. If you're running at redline 2700 RPM, it rolls 1.06 tach hours every clock hour.

As a result, while "tach time" an excellent indicator of engine wear, it's not a particularly good indicator of "flight time" as that term is defined in 14 CFR 1.1 and used for Part 61 purposes.
 
Depends on your tach. Ron describes the traditional mechanical tachometer where the hour meter is counting revolutions. Some of the electronic tachs indeed do what register says, count time based on when the revs get off the "peg."
 
Henning said:
10 hrs gets you 'checked out', it does not get you 'best rate' even in a 152.
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Believe what you like. We've got an insurance broker who says you're flat wrong in many types. Insurance these days is cheap. Really cheap. It compressed the rates to where there was no point in maintaining the levels on some airframes.

Raising per seat medical limits is where they make their money now.
 
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