Logging time

Ron Levy said:
The FAA cares. They've revoked people's certificates for violating the logging rules.
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I'm aware of cases where the FAA has been very upset with pilots who log time that they didn't actually fly, or in non-existent airplanes, or when co-owners each log all the time on their shared aircraft.

But I've never heard of even the FAA quibbling about hobbs/watch/tach time.

My advice:

ihv7qn8.jpg
 
TMetzinger said:
When I start the airplane, it moves (for definitions of "moves") under it's own power, so I've always logged hobbs time. For airplanes without hobbs, I note the time when I start and the time when I shutdown.
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Modern avionics (GTN, KT74, etc) have flight timers in case you forget note the time...I don't have Hobbs
 
EdFred said:
I log flight time. Not taxi time. Not line up and wait time. Not any other time dinking around on the ground. Not Hobbs time, or tach time, or watch on my wrist time. When I land I check the timer on the 430 which only starts the timer above 30kts GS, and round to the nearest 0.1hr.

Why? When I move the plane from the hangar to the runup area my purpose for that is taxiing. When I move from the runup area to the runway, it's still for the purpose of taxiing. Only after I'm on the runway, and I'm rolling am I moving for the purpose of flight.
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If one is involved in an "incident" while sitting in the left seat and the engine is running, the FAA/NTSB is going to conclude you are PIC, hence I log every 0.1 hrs on the Hobbs, startup to shutdown.
 
paflyer said:
If one is involved in an "incident" while sitting in the left seat and the engine is running, the FAA/NTSB is going to conclude you are PIC, hence I log every 0.1 hrs on the Hobbs, startup to shutdown.
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Same deal with insurance.
 
teejayevans said:
Modern avionics (GTN, KT74, etc) have flight timers in case you forget note the time...I don't have Hobbs
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Yeah, and you can not have anything with a timing function, look at a chart and say "Hmmm, I flew about 90nm, and I fly 90kts, so I'll log 1.0" and that would be perfectly fine with the FAA as well.
 
EdFred said:
And I will say what I said in that thread.
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Don't be absurd, Ed. No one does that.

You are free to log it however you wish to interpret the reg but don't malign those who interpret it differently.
 
I recently had a line check with the FAA. In the space on the 8410 which says "Flight Time" he put the block time (taxi out to taxi in) rather than the flight time (squat switch). I gave him both numbers.

This was a guy who paid attention to detail. He noticed that I had logged the VOT check as January 2, 2014 instead of 2015.
 
Everskyward said:
I recently had a line check with the FAA. In the space on the 8410 which says "Flight Time" he put the block time (taxi out to taxi in) rather than the flight time (squat switch). I gave him both numbers.
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Block time is the most liberal allowed standard, so it makes sense that would be the one most commonly used, including by the Feds.
 
Henning said:
Block time is the most liberal allowed standard, so it makes sense that would be the one most commonly used, including by the Feds.
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Yes. So I posted that for the people who are worried about logging block time.
 
James331 said:
Same deal with insurance.
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That is a good argument right there. "Prop in Motion" is a common insurance point of delineation between types of operation, and it correlates to block time within an acceptable margin of error.

If the Feds and the Insurance use that delineator, it sounds like the most natural for a pilot to use as well.
 
Kiddo's Driver said:
Off topic: When you were selling the Tampico, which time were you reporting as the total time? You said something like 8,000 hours on the aircraft. I report Tach time for that purpose & for maintenance. I log Hobbs.
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We weren't sure how to handle that. Our A&P said that all maintenance is handled under Tach time and that should continue to be used which is good I guess I believe it was lower. Not significantly but somewhat.
 
TMetzinger said:
When I start the airplane, it moves (for definitions of "moves") under [its] own power, so I've always logged hobbs time.
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That's not the FAA's definition of "moves". Some planes park in movement areas, but you're allowed to start the engine there before you have a taxi clearance (provided you don't release the brakes yet). Therefore, just starting the engine doesn't count as "moving".

Nonetheless, I've never heard of the FAA complaining about the use of Hobbs time for flight time, so I certainly don't worry about it.
 
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So logging 30 minutes of taxi time is OK, but logging 30 hours isn't. Please explain why. Why is 30minutes OK, or 3 hours if there's a ground stop after push back - or even 6 hours, but 30 hours isn't?

Where's the arbitrary cutoff? And why is your arbitrary cutoff of x minutes acceptable, and Joe Pilot's arbitrary cutoff of 2x minutes not OK?
 
EdFred said:
And I will say what I said in that thread.

I start up my engine, creep forward, and set the brakes. I burn about 2.5 gallons of fuel an hour at low idle. I have 86 gallons of usable fuel on board. I let it idle for about 30 hours while I nap in the pilot seat. I then taxi over to the runway and do a lap around the pattern. Well, would you look at that, I just logged 30.1hrs of flight time. Yay me!

I could have stretched it to 32 hours of idle, but I gotta have my 1/2 hr of reserve you know. Rules and all.
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And someone could just put hours in the logbook not even have shown up to the airport.

The logbook is an honor code. If you feel wheels up to wheels down fits your needs, your not wrong. If I use Hobbs from engine start to stop, it's not wrong. I have probably 200 hours I just never logged from flights, I'm not wrong. But until the FAA finds a way to really track every hour we do. It is all on honor. I'm sure there are people out there working as pilots that have fictions hours in their book.
 
EdFred said:
So logging 30 minutes of taxi time is OK, but logging 30 hours isn't. Please explain why. Why is 30minutes OK, or 3 hours if there's a ground stop after push back - or even 6 hours, but 30 hours isn't?

Where's the arbitrary cutoff? And why is your arbitrary cutoff of x minutes acceptable, and Joe Pilot's arbitrary cutoff of 2x minutes not OK?
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If someone wants to try your scheme and log 30 hours of ground idle/taxi I have no problem with it. Anyone who would do such is a retard and will be found out by gravity eventually.
 
EdFred said:
So logging 30 minutes of taxi time is OK, but logging 30 hours isn't. Please explain why. Why is 30minutes OK, or 3 hours if there's a ground stop after push back - or even 6 hours, but 30 hours isn't?

Where's the arbitrary cutoff? And why is your arbitrary cutoff of x minutes acceptable, and Joe Pilot's arbitrary cutoff of 2x minutes not OK?
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The cut off is intent, not time. If you intend to go flying, it all counts. If you intend to pad your log book, none of it counts. It all works in the honor system, how honorable are you? Simple as that. The FAA is good about giving you a whole bunch of rope to hang yourself with.
 
Henning said:
The cut off is intent, not time. If you intend to go flying, it all counts. If you intend to pad your log book, none of it counts. It all works in the honor system, how honorable are you? Simple as that. The FAA is good about giving you a whole bunch of rope to hang yourself with.
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The intent is to go flying, just with a lot of taxi time. Just like the guys that push back early knowing they will be held so they can get paid and log alllllll that time.

I log time in the air, my honor isn't in question.
 
EdFred said:
The intent is to go flying, just with a lot of taxi time. Just like the guys that push back early knowing they will be held so they can get paid and log alllllll that time.

I log time in the air, my honor isn't in question.
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If you you are taxiing more than normal operations would dictate in order to pad your logbook, your intent is to defraud for personal gain. That intent is not allowed, so that time is not allowed.
 
Henning said:
If you you are taxiing more than normal operations would dictate in order to pad your logbook, your intent is to defraud for personal gain. That intent is not allowed, so that time is not allowed.
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So why is pushing back early from the gate OK, knowing there's a ground stop and you're going to sit for a couple hours?
 
EdFred said:
So why is pushing back early from the gate OK, knowing there's a ground stop and you're going to sit for a couple hours?
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Because the company needs the gate, and the pilots are told to push. Or dispatch is trying to get an earlier slot, but needs the plane in position to take off in short notice to make that happen. I've been in both of these situations in the last two weeks alone. I'm on reserve, so I don't make money when the flight goes over block, and I sure as hell don't need the flight time.

But hey, thanks for assuming I'm dishonest for pushing when I know we'll be sitting for a bit.
 
EdFred said:
I log time in the air, my honor isn't in question.
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You can log your time that way. You can think whatever you want about other people's honor. But that doesn't change the fact that the FAA rules allow you to log your taxi time too.
 
I once started, began taxiing, got a clearance, and then held short of the runway for 45 minutes while they worked out a different clearance due to POTUS TFR (my original FP went around the TFR, the first clearance they gave me went through it, the final clearance 45 min later went around). I logged all the time as flight time.
 
JimNtexas said:
I'm aware of cases where the FAA has been very upset with pilots who log time that they didn't actually fly, or in non-existent airplanes, or when co-owners each log all the time on their shared aircraft.

But I've never heard of even the FAA quibbling about hobbs/watch/tach time.

My advice:

ihv7qn8.jpg
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1. File what you want
2. Fly what you get.
3. Log what you need
 
kayoh190 said:
Because the company needs the gate, and the pilots are told to push. Or dispatch is trying to get an earlier slot, but needs the plane in position to take off in short notice to make that happen. I've been in both of these situations in the last two weeks alone. I'm on reserve, so I don't make money when the flight goes over block, and I sure as hell don't need the flight time.

But hey, thanks for assuming I'm dishonest for pushing when I know we'll be sitting for a bit.
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Maybe at busier airports, but when we push back and there are 3 empty gates on each side of the one we just left, and there's only 2 flights coming in the next hour, and we then sit for 2 hours because because there's a ground stop elsewhere, I'm not buying that it's always dispatch or corporate. Happens in 135 too. My brother is amazed at the number of 11:45pm arrivals that mysteriously arrive at 12:05am so the pilots can clock another day of per diem. Pull up flight aware, and there's a slowdown about half way back home. Sorry, there isn't a huge line of planes coming into our C at midnight for that slow down.
 
EdFred said:
The intent is to go flying, just with a lot of taxi time. Just like the guys that push back early knowing they will be held so they can get paid and log alllllll that time.
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Then you can log it. And if anyone ever calls you on it, and you can convince the ALJ that the minute movement was for the purpose of flight and not for the purpose of logging 30 hours you didn't fly, then you can even keep your certificate. But there is absolutely no question whatsoever in my mind that when I taxi out of the tie down the plane is moving for the purpose of flight, I log all of that time. Especially since I fly taildraggers and have been instructed to fly them all the way to the tiedown.
 
EdFred said:
Maybe at busier airports, but when we push back and there are 3 empty gates on each side of the one we just left, and there's only 2 flights coming in the next hour, and we then sit for 2 hours because because there's a ground stop elsewhere, I'm not buying that it's always dispatch or corporate.
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I can only tell you my experience. I've never personally witnessed a crew (let alone be part of one) push for the purposes of making money. That said, I've never flown for a regional, so perhaps the culture is different there.

I cut my teeth flying corporate and charter, so it's difficult for me to disengage myself from what I consider to be a responsibility to my passengers. Sometimes it's difficult to balance the needs of the company against what's most comfortable for everyone in the back, but I sleep well at night knowing that I do the best job I possibly can.
 
ahkahn said:
Personally, I log engine-on to engine-off provided I actually take off.
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What happens if you have an engine out at high altitude and best glide gets you to the ground in about 15 minutes?

You wouldn't count that? :)
 
In exactly 1 month I am going to make a thread concerning logging time. Just so you guys can argue the same things over and over. It's entertainment if anything .
 
EdFred said:
So why is pushing back early from the gate OK, knowing there's a ground stop and you're going to sit for a couple hours?
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I wouldn't log it as flight time, but it's still running the clock as duty time. That's the only time it would matter. Pt 91, I don't give a ****, let your conscience be your guide. Since I would not leave the engines running for the ground hold, my Hobbs would not be turning, so I would not be logging it regardless.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
What happens if you have an engine out at high altitude and best glide gets you to the ground in about 15 minutes?

You wouldn't count that? :)
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I would. I would also log the time it takes me to climb out of the plane and change my underwear.
 
Henning said:
I wouldn't log it as flight time, but it's still running the clock as duty time.
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Honestly, everyone I know logs the time. Reason being, it's flight time in the eyes of the FAA when it comes to flight and duty limits under 117, so our crew tracking software sees it that way too. I reconcile my logbook against what the company shows, and having one 'definition' makes it easier than tracking two sets of time.

I don't agree with it in principle, but the FAA sees it as flight time, and at the end of the day you're talking a fraction of a percent of what I log on a yearly basis. It's all in the noise at that point, especially considering I'm beyond the point in my career where any of this flight time makes any difference to anyone.
 
EdFred said:
So why is pushing back early from the gate OK, knowing there's a ground stop and you're going to sit for a couple hours?
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Two comments on that statement.

1. Those decisions don't lie solely with the PIC. There may be valid reasons to do so, even if they are not apparent on the outside.

2. With the advent of the Passenger Bill of Rights, that stuff doesn't happen that much anymore. If there is a known delay, it will be taken at the gate.
 
I log Hobbs time because it's how I pay for the plane and, well, it's easy to do.

It's also how I cope. :goofy: When I hear about all the awesome guys that soloed in 9 hours, I secretly tell myself that it's because they started their stopwatch only when their wheels left and then re-met the ground. In other words, I took over 20 hours only because I had unprecedented amounts of taxi time on the Hobbs, at least 75-80%, and not because I suck.
 
kayoh190 said:
Honestly, everyone I know logs the time. Reason being, it's flight time in the eyes of the FAA when it comes to flight and duty limits under 117, so our crew tracking software sees it that way too. I reconcile my logbook against what the company shows, and having one 'definition' makes it easier than tracking two sets of time.

I don't agree with it in principle, but the FAA sees it as flight time, and at the end of the day you're talking a fraction of a percent of what I log on a yearly basis. It's all in the noise at that point, especially considering I'm beyond the point in my career where any of this flight time makes any difference to anyone.
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I think you would find difficulty getting a Fed to call a 2 hr ramp hold "flight time", but I may be wrong. Regardless, I don't care what someone else logs, not in the slightest, just saying I wouldn't because it wouldn't be on the Hobbs at the end of the flight, and that's what I use.
 
Henning said:
I think you would find difficulty getting a Fed to call a 2 hr ramp hold "flight time", but I may be wrong. Regardless, I don't care what someone else logs, not in the slightest, just saying I wouldn't because it wouldn't be on the Hobbs at the end of the flight, and that's what I use.
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Well, now you are starting to make Ed Fred's argument. But at that stage in one's career, flight time doesn't mean as much and I don't think the Fed's are interested in making a big deal about it.
 
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