Let's talk about flying in the mountains.

NoHeat said:
If you are getting altitude sickness on the ski slope, what will it be like flying unpressurized way up at 17k?
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I get headaches from altitude whenever I am skiing or hiking for the day above ~ 9,000 ft. I have to be there for hours. I have never had a problem flying for 2-3 hours at altitudes well above that. Don't really know why that is. Because I am late in life I use O2 anytime I am flying at 9k+, which is a change from when I was younger.
 
Only seen a plane or two flying each day.

On the ramp now.
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CharlieTango said:
If you have to ask then yes.
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Unless the answer is "not that big a deal" right?

I should definitely go to a doctor. But I turn 40 this year and they are going to want to start sticking things in my butt. :eek:
 
I have been going on and off since about 96' but don't have much else to offer that what others posted above.
I headed up there 2 years ago with a sunup arrival time and got shut out by winds....in the Bellanca, which is the best xwind airplane I have flown (huge rudder). Usually arriving that early I beat the wind. All was well til past Las Vegas, NM when it started getting seriously gnarly approaching the hills; large uncommanded pitch deviations and sudden unexpectged yawing, huge bumps. Just about then I was able to tune in the awos and sure enough it was G40kts already. No way. I hopped over to Santa Fe where it was calm and had a great day of skiing despite the additional driving up the mountain.
There are a few AXX reports on POA, here is one of mine from a few years back.
My first time there was in a 150/150 and at departure time, it was >20kts & I knew I was staying. I hung at the airport for a while just to see what would happen. A bonanza landed and 4 ppl got out, the two girls got down and made like kissing the ground. A while later a turboprop bailed before fully entering the valley. My 150 woulda been creamed that day.
 
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I did the whole dumb pilot into the mountains thing once... blindly followed the checklist even though I knew better and went full rich and flooded a DA-20 on final out there in NM. Not cool to lose your engine in that kind of terrain.

Us Texans are spoiled.

I had fun flying past and over some a few weeks back in the 120.

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You guys at the Angel Fire Resort? Looks nice! Haven't done any skiing in NM. May have to hit that one up soon.
 
Gucci Pilot said:
You guys at the Angel Fire Resort? Looks nice! Haven't done any skiing in NM. May have to hit that one up soon.
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Yes.
So it is not Vail or breckenridge but it is a great place to start skiing.
Lots of long green runs. Great ski school. My kids 6 and 8 have never seen a mountain before.
I put them in ski school for 6 hours. My daughter can ski all the green slopes and my son can do a couple of the blues.

I love skiing and this place has somewhat of a beginner reputation, it does have runs for everyone.
I have been skiing since I was a kid and there are runs here that I don't want to mess with.


There are a lot of great places to eat, and the accommodations are just awesome.

Today we took a break from skiing to rest for tomorrow. We just ventured out w/ sleds and let the kids go wild sledding.
Right away we saw this on the sledding hill.

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SixPapaCharlie said:
I just inhaled a couple litres of O2 and I feel great.
Haven't had headaches, just keep feeling like I'm going to faint. Can't catch my breath.
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Now you understand why a non-turbo engine has less HP at altitude!
 
Density altitude, crosswinds, and mountain waves, Bryan.

KAXX requires planning and respect. But I know you are a careful pilot.
 
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Given what I am reading, it sounds like something I might not want not mess with.
I can take a beating but the wife and kids don't need to get scared and beat up.

If I take a non family trip, I might do it with someone that has done it several times.
I think next year, I will probably fly close to here and rent a van for the last bit.

Even if I were the worlds greatest mountain flyer, scaring passengers is not worth it.
My son is already a bit of a timid flyer.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I would like to know more about this.
So I am in non turbo. Maybe that is a deal breaker.

I haven't thought this through as I am still just speculating.
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Why does it have to be deal-breaker?

I've been into Telluride several times. Almost all non-turbo. Turbo helps, but by no means required equipment as long as you respect the load....don't plan a flight at or near gross, especially when it is warm. That may mean you plan you fuel load to arrive light and depart light and then make an early stop for fuel.

Take a good look at your performance charts - run the numbers for different weights and temps and see what kind of margin and climb performance you have. Give yourself a comfortable safety margin and you should be able to make the flight safely.

Personally, I don't think you need O2 or significant mountain instruction experience to do the flight safely as long as you do a little research on mountain flying (I recommend Sparky's Mountain Flying Bible), set reasonable limits for yourself and have an alternate plan (cancel the trip/drive etc) if the weather is not conducive.

For good weather VFR ops, I consider turbo and O2 nice-to-haves, not necessarily requirements. For less than good weather VFR ops - Don't go, or go after having getting some good mountain flying instruction.

As I have mentioned before, while high altitude airports like Telluride are not some big boogeyman, I have had to cancel just as many trips there as I have completed...part of exercising the 'don't go' option.

In short, do the research, and give yourself outs. You'll be fine. I know some of the Colorado folks may brand me as a heretic, but I don't think you need to take a mountain flying course to know that your airplane performance is going to be degraded and you should not be messing around at low altitude in the mountains when winds are blowing and the weather is not good.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Given what I am reading, it sounds like something I might not want not mess with.
I can take a beating but the wife and kids don't need to get scared and beat up.

If I take a non family trip, I might do it with someone that has done it several times.
I think next year, I will probably fly close to here and rent a van for the last bit.

Even if I were the worlds greatest mountain flyer, scaring passengers is not worth it.
My son is already a bit of a timid flyer.
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The key to not taking a beating is often arrive/depart early in the day...almost mandatory in the warm months and don't fly when the winds are blowing in the mountains.

Turbulence is typically a lot less in the winter time, as long as you avoid windy days. Summertime it is almost always bumpy.

I think the best way to do is to plan the flight to Angel Fire, but have a couple of backup options - ie divert to Taos or Las Vegas and drive the rest if the weather isn't looking good for the days of the trip.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Why does it have to be deal-breaker?
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It's true, you can do it.
Just
-be prepared to change the plan if the wx isn't acceptable
-plan the flight really well using the advice/admonishments above, and mountain flying info available.
I did post above about going in a 150.
 
Fearless Tower said:
Why does it have to be deal-breaker?

I've been into Telluride several times. Almost all non-turbo. Turbo helps, but by no means required equipment as long as you respect the load....don't plan a flight at or near gross, especially when it is warm. That may mean you plan you fuel load to arrive light and depart light and then make an early stop for fuel.

Take a good look at your performance charts - run the numbers for different weights and temps and see what kind of margin and climb performance you have. Give yourself a comfortable safety margin and you should be able to make the flight safely.

Personally, I don't think you need O2 or significant mountain instruction experience to do the flight safely as long as you do a little research on mountain flying (I recommend Sparky's Mountain Flying Bible), set reasonable limits for yourself and have an alternate plan (cancel the trip/drive etc) if the weather is not conducive.

For good weather VFR ops, I consider turbo and O2 nice-to-haves, not necessarily requirements. For less than good weather VFR ops - Don't go, or go after having getting some good mountain flying instruction.

As I have mentioned before, while high altitude airports like Telluride are not some big boogeyman, I have had to cancel just as many trips there as I have completed...part of exercising the 'don't go' option.

In short, do the research, and give yourself outs. You'll be fine. I know some of the Colorado folks may brand me as a heretic, but I don't think you need to take a mountain flying course to know that your airplane performance is going to be degraded and you should not be messing around at low altitude in the mountains when winds are blowing and the weather is not good.
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++1

I live just east of the Continental Divide. Very few of the non-commercial light airplanes around here have turbochargers (a few Mooneys, Cirrus 22s, some turbo-Arrows). Our flying club instructors use a C172 for the mountain flying orientation course. Flying the mountains to the west is one of the incredible and unique experiences for aviators around these parts.

I don't know why any pilot would deny themselves that pleasure. But you gotta pick your days. As FT noted above, mornings are generally the best, although late in the day in mid-summer the winds around here will also abate as the alpine temperatures start to fall.

In my view mountain flying should be like all flying - good planning directed at managing the risks of the intended flight.
 
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This is a perfect example of why I believe in an angle of attack meter.

Low time VFR flatlander pilot in high country with a high performance airplane.

No guess work. Just fly the meter. And don't go full rich on final! Leave it alone.
 
txflyer said:
This is a perfect example of why I believe in an angle of attack meter.
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Not saying an AOA wouldn't be good. However, with a given loading and indicated airspeed that works at one altitude, shouldn't the same indicated airspeed and loading work at a higher altitude?
 
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RyanShort1 said:
I did the whole dumb pilot into the mountains thing once... blindly followed the checklist even though I knew better and went full rich and flooded a DA-20 on final out there in NM. Not cool to lose your engine in that kind of terrain.

Us CENTRAL Texans are spoiled.
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Fixed that for you ;)

SixPapaCharlie said:
Given what I am reading, it sounds like something I might not want not mess with. I can take a beating but the wife and kids don't need to get scared and beat up.
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Ridge to the west causes the problems due to RWY orientation. A lot of flat-landers jump on here with the "winds above 20 kts, blah blah blah" responses. Yes, low winds make things easier, but there are other things to watch for .... There was a good course in Santa Fe for mountain flying, and Santa Fe would be WAY more forgiving than Angel Fire (hint: they have skiing in Santa Fe also). All of the "bowl" configuration airports have the capacity to create extreme TB rather easily.

If you have no intention of landing, the mountain base to ridge height (e.g. El Paso 3900 peak 7200 divided by 2) is the minimum to cross if winds are high. In my area, I can reduce the wild ride climbing to 10-12k if winds exceed 35 knots.
 
It not just Central Texans - east, south, north all are in the same boat, and a lot of west Texas, too. I fly most of the northern half of the state regularly and used to fly the southern half quite a bit with my boss back in the day. There are few portions of Texas I haven't flown over.
 
Not sure if this is true...

I once heard more Texan pilots die in Colorado than Coloradan pilots...

I'd get training.
 
Croomrider said:
Not saying an AOA wouldn't be good. However, with a given loading and indicated airspeed that works at one altitude, shouldn't the same indicated airspeed and loading work at a higher altitude?
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FTFY. Prolly what you meant anyway, just thought I'd be certain...
 
I know this thread is mainly talking about flying out west, but there are more modest mountains on the east coast also. I have considered flying up to Vermont, and certainly most GA planes can get comfortably above those mountains. So cruising does not concern me much. What does concern me is getting down into the valleys to land. I have heard there are mountain waves, but not as extreme. Plus, I hear they get a lot a fog in the valleys.
 
I haven't been to Angel Fire, but I would go in the 310 (which is naturally aspirated). Do some careful planning and give yourself margins. The turbulence can be bad, yes, so that's a consideration.

Turbos are nice, and if you have less experience they do make it somewhat easier, but I'd use the 310 out there and not worry about it much.
 
Croomrider said:
Not saying an AOA wouldn't be good. However, with a given loading and airspeed that works at one altitude, shouldn't the same airspeed and loading work at a higher altitude?
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Theoretically but loading is constantly changing with fuel burn.

You can't prognosticate exactly how much fuel you will burn from point A to point B on any given day due to winds and other factors.

ASI's are not showing you lift. An AOA does. :wink2:
 
I flew from Florida to Vegas with about 100 hours, dragging an experienced pilot along with me as a safety-chute in my SR20. Flying over the mountains in Arizona wasn't an issue, but coming back it got really scary as we started to not only pickup ice that wasn't forecasted, we hit rapidly degraded visibility.

All in all I think it might of been a chute pull if I was alone, and I'd never try that again by myself without more mountain training. (200ppl here, working on IFR)

Be VERY conservative with your planning and if I can impress one thing onto you: REALLY know what your doing before attempting to fly into mountain areas and make sure you have PLENTY of sunlight.
 
drotto said:
I know this thread is mainly talking about flying out west, but there are more modest mountains on the east coast also. I have considered flying up to Vermont, and certainly most GA planes can get comfortably above those mountains. So cruising does not concern me much. What does concern me is getting down into the valleys to land. I have heard there are mountain waves, but not as extreme. Plus, I hear they get a lot a fog in the valleys.
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Fog in the valleys is also an issue out where I am in the west. Mornings in the summer especially. Cool, calm air over the rocks. Crystal clear air from east of the Divide all the way to the coast. But the valleys are fogged in until the sun gets higher overhead...and the airports are all down in the flatlands in the valleys.

I would sometimes fly my singles in those conditions solo, but not with family. If an (admittedly rare) engine out was to occur there are few options, and none of them good. That limitation wasn't the only reason I decided to move to a twin, but one of the important reasons.
 
txflyer said:
Theoretically but loading is constantly changing with fuel burn.

You can't prognosticate exactly how much fuel you will burn from point A to point B on any given day due to winds and other factors.

ASI's are not showing you lift. An AOA does. :wink2:
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If airplanes were equipped with AOAs we would probably have far fewer stall/spin accidents on that turn from base to final...
 
UngaWunga said:
Two good reminder videos...

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The top one is a near sea level airport with a pilot rotating early and trying to climb behind the power curve.

The bottom one is an overloaded and misconfigured aircraft flying uphill and past a solid minute of good abort sites, not paying attention to his aircraft.

DA is a contributing factor in both, but it is not a primary cause. Winds might have contributed to the former.
 
Yes, pilot error was the cause of both of those. The point is to look at the capabilities of your aircraft and yourself beforehand. That Stinson crash is hard to watch with all the outs he had.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I am in Angel Fire NM, right now and having a really good time. My kids both skied for the first time today and had an absolute blast. Looks like this will be a recurring vacation. I personally ache a lot and the altitude is causing me some issues. (look for my next post "Let's talk about altitude sickness")...
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I find that vitamin E helps me to prevent altitude sickness. (The problem for me was headaches, and having very low energy, after spending some hours at high altitudes.)
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
Unless the answer is "not that big a deal" right?

I should definitely go to a doctor. But I turn 40 this year and they are going to want to start sticking things in my butt. :eek:
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I am 40 and I had to pay extra for that. :D

But seriously, a Cirrus has plenty of horsepower for mountain flying. Independence Aviation at KAPA has a huge fleet of them and they do mountain training in them all the time. The plane can handle it.

It's more a factor of the pilot knowing what to watch out for. Grab Sparky Imesson's Mountain Flying Bible and you'll get all the knowledge you need and WAY more.

Flying in the mountains with a mountain instructor and 'feeling' the stuff they talk about in all these books and classes is pretty eye opening. You get a sense for what the mountains do to the winds, how to "read" clouds, etc.

Honestly there are *far* *far* fewer crashes up in the rock pile since the advent of airborne GPS moving maps and better weather reporting. The old joke involved the guy from Texas deciding to fly through the mountains and getting himself into trouble but the fact is that experienced mountain pilots get themselves in trouble too.

Watch the winds aloft at 12k and 15k and of course the clouds. 25 to 30kts at those elevations and you can expect a bumpy ride fo sho. 15 knots is where many people start to say it's not worth the beating.

Give yourself plenty of options. Don't fly low over ridges or passes - just sky over them. ATC won't pull your man card for that.

Approach mountain ridges at a 45 degree angle so you have less turning to do if the sink rate is too great. But again - altitude is your friend and makes the 45 degree thing somewhat less important the higher you are.

Yes you can "shuttle" climb or descend - up and down the valley as needed. But in that particular valley there are outs at each end, with the south being the easier of the two.

I wouldn't attempt with clouds around unless they are well above the peaks. You don't want clouds limiting your options.

They say to load your airplane to no more than 90% MGW if non-turbo.

Probably want O2 available. It's just a good idea.

So yeah. Clear day. Light winds (unlikely in winter). Reasonable DA. It's a space shuttle sized runway.
 
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Water really helps for altitude. Drink more water.
 
UngaWunga said:
Yes, pilot error was the cause of both of those. The point is to look at the capabilities of your aircraft and yourself beforehand. That Stinson crash is hard to watch with all the outs he had.
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I couldn't click on it again. I've seen it before and I spend half the video yelling at him to just land the damned thing.

Ted DuPuis said:
Water really helps for altitude. Drink more water.
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This.
 
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