Let's refine the straight-in debate with an example & poll

[chemgeek]

TALK TO EACH OTHER and work it out. An aircraft on final has right of way. Within 3 miles, FAA is probably going to side with the plane on final. Maybe farther out, depending on speed. Just work it out. This is not hard folks. A ****ing match about who is "righter" about landing doesn't get anywhere. Safety first. Put your righteousness aside.

 

[Clip4]

The 150 should only be on a 1/4 mile base. Immediately initiate Vx climb (60 KIAS) and turn left to close parallel the left side of the runway allowing the other plane on final to pass below and to his right. Advise the other aircraft to continue for landing.

 

[PaulS]

300 feet is pretty low for a normal base to final turn. Imo

 

[MauleSkinner]

TALK TO EACH OTHER and work it out. An aircraft on final has right of way. Within 3 miles, FAA is probably going to side with the plane on final. Maybe farther out, depending on speed. Just work it out. This is not hard folks. A ****ing match about who is "righter" about landing doesn't get anywhere. Safety first. Put your righteousness aside.

Yup…whoever was right at WVI is still just as dead as the guy who was wrong.

 

[dtuuri]

The 150 should only be on a 1/4 mile base. Immediately initiate Vx climb (60 KIAS) and turn left to close parallel the left side of the runway allowing the other plane on final to pass below and to his right. Advise the other aircraft to continue for landing.

Good advice, but really all you need do on base leg is level off and then either climb out of the way or veer right to follow. If the other guy is headed for the runway simply don't go there too and you won't collide. Once you're on final, though, you're kind of at the mercy of someone close behind you. Better to keep him in the front window not the rear.

 

[dmspilot]

The 150 should only be on a 1/4 mile base. Immediately initiate Vx climb (60 KIAS) and turn left to close parallel the left side of the runway allowing the other plane on final to pass below and to his right. Advise the other aircraft to continue for landing.

Why are you advocating nonstandard procedures? That is more likely to result in a collision hazard.

AFH:
The downwind leg is a course flown parallel to the landing runway, but in a direction opposite to the intended landing direction. This
leg is flown approximately 1/2 to 1 mile out from the landing runway and at the specified traffic pattern altitude. When flying on the
downwind leg, the pilot should complete all before-landing checks and extend the landing gear if the airplane is equipped with
retractable landing gear. Pattern altitude is maintained until at least abeam the approach end of the landing runway. At this point, the
pilot should reduce power and begin a descent. The pilot should continue the downwind leg past a point abeam the approach end of
the runway to a point approximately 45° from the approach end of the runway, and make a medium-bank turn onto the base leg.

A quarter-mile base means you flew your downwind less than a quarter mile from the runway. Might only be appropriate for a helicopter.

 

[bflynn]

False choice. Don't turn base in the first place.

Best defense, no be there.

 

[O2 Birddog]

Seems like we're starting off with bad data. I just listened to the audio again. It wasn't a 5 mile final when the 150 turned base.

340: "Watsonville area traffic, Twin Cessna 740WJ, 3 miles, straight-in , 20, full stop."
150 4 seconds later: "Watsonville traffic, Cessna 931, left base 20, Watsonville."

Everyone will debate whether or not it was okay for the 150 to turn in front of the 340, but once he did and wanted out of the situation, I'm not sure what I would do. Immediate 360? Go straight and climb? I guess it would depend on where the 340 was. He clearly saw him and stated as much.

How about just extending your downwind leg a mile or two giving the faster plane ample time to get in and on the ground?

It costs you about two minutes or so and saves creating a possible hazard.

 

[Palmpilot]

How about just extending your downwind leg a mile or two giving the faster plane ample time to get in and on the ground?

It costs you about two minutes or so and saves creating a possible hazard.

I agree. It's been claimed that high terrain north of the airport would have prevented that in this case, but an examination of the sectional shows that the terrain doesn't rise to pattern altitude until at least three miles from the threshold. Since the twin had just reported at three miles and was going faster than the 152, they would have been abeam each other well within that distance and the 152 could have safely turned base at that time to follow the twin in. If, for some reason, that didn't work out, an approximately 45-degree right turn from the downwind would have been a viable escape.

 

[dbahn]

Why are you advocating nonstandard procedures? That is more likely to result in a collision hazard.

It's too late for a standard procedure.

You are about to get killed by an aircraft with the ROW and need to go where he isn't going to be. A full power climbing left turn to parallel the runway immediately takes you to a place where no other aircraft are likely to be, including the aircraft on final if he goes around. Go there and look for other aircraft to miss while you re-enter the pattern or completely exit the pattern. An earlier decision to extend the downwind clearly would have been the best choice, keeping everything in sight, but I think in the Watsonville accident, it was too late for that.

 

[dmspilot]

It's too late for a standard procedure.

You are about to get killed by an aircraft with the ROW and need to go where he isn't going to be. A full power climbing left turn to parallel the runway immediately takes you to a place where no other aircraft are likely to be, including the aircraft on final if he goes around. Go there and look for other aircraft to miss while you re-enter the pattern or completely exit the pattern. An earlier decision to extend the downwind clearly would have been the best choice, keeping everything in sight, but I think in the Watsonville accident, it was too late for that.

You completely subverted the meaning of my post. Check again.

 

[dbahn]

You completely subverted the meaning of my post. Check again.

Sorry. Didn't mean to subvert the meaning of your post, but I think the discussion is the scenario where the aircraft is already on base and is 1/4 mile from turning final, not where he initially turned base from the downwind. I see where the preceding quoted post referred to "should be", not actually "is", so my apologies for not following the side track of where he "should be". My point about "too late" is because he's likely in a position where trying to get back to the downwind is itself dangerous, and I think the poll was about options in that situation.

 

[O2 Birddog]

Maybe I'm showing my inexperience but there seems to be a lot of viable options here:

"Approaching bug smasher I'm already turning to final 2 miles ahead of you, you need to maintain altitude and go around".

Turn left onto the downwind well abeam of the strip and repeat your approach.

Turn right and extend your down wind even if you need to climb out and come in behind the hotrod.

Once everyone is safe and on the ground voice your displeasure face to face reminding him it's not, "His private strip".

What I would be extremely hesitant to do is cross the runway not knowing for sure exactly where he is and at what speed he's approaching.

We had an issue a week ago with some basically no time students doing pattern work and practicing touch and go's and two private jets coming in on straight approaches. There stall speeds were faster than the cruising speeds of the student aircraft and both got pretty flustered when there was no real reason for it.

 

[Skip Miller]

Maybe I'm showing my inexperience but there seems to be a lot of viable options here:

"Approaching bug smasher I'm already turning to final 2 miles ahead of you, you need to maintain altitude and go around".

Just remember, he is in charge of his plane. You have no FAR authority to tell him what to do. Leave out the “you need to maintain….”. Absolutely fine to announce your position and intentions.

Skip

 

[Palmpilot]

"Approaching bug smasher I'm already turning to final 2 miles ahead of you, you need to maintain altitude and go around".

Just remember, he is in charge of his plane. You have no FAR authority to tell him what to do. Leave out the “you need to maintain….”. Absolutely fine to announce your position and intentions.

Besides the fact that it's an on-air admission of violating 91.113(g), there's also this, from AC 90-66B:

10.7 Disagreements. Do not correct other pilots on frequency (unless it is safety critical), particularly if you are aware you are correcting a student pilot. If you disagree with what another pilot is doing, operate your aircraft safely, communicate as necessary, clarify their intentions and, if you feel you must discuss operations with another pilot, wait until you are on the ground to have that discussion....​

 

[William Pete Hodges]

31 responses (10 from the OP) and only six votes. This one's a dud.

The reason there are so few votes is the options do not include the preferred escape maneuver. I think the pilot on base should do a level 270 degree turn and reenter an extended downwind leg. This turns him away from final, away from other traffic and allows him to blend with other traffic in the pattern. That option is not on the list.

 

[William Pete Hodges]

It's too late for a standard procedure.

You are about to get killed by an aircraft with the ROW and need to go where he isn't going to be. A full power climbing left turn to parallel the runway immediately takes you to a place where no other aircraft are likely to be, including the aircraft on final if he goes around. Go there and look for other aircraft to miss while you re-enter the pattern or completely exit the pattern. An earlier decision to extend the downwind clearly would have been the best choice, keeping everything in sight, but I think in the Watsonville accident, it was too late for that.

I will amend my answer to include a climbing left turn or a level left turn depending on altitude. I also agree that running parallel upwind between the runway and the downwind leg is a good choice especially if you are still below traffic pattern altitude like 300-700 AGL. You can always reenter at the mid field crosswind so long as space is available, or exit the pattern by passing under the downwind traffic.

 

[dbahn]

I will amend my answer to include a climbing left turn or a level left turn depending on altitude. I also agree that running parallel upwind between the runway and the downwind leg is a good choice especially if you are still below traffic pattern altitude like 300-700 AGL. You can always reenter at the mid field crosswind so long as space is available, or exit the pattern by passing under the downwind traffic.

Yes, it starts with recognizing that you have to "escape" from impending doom and not ponder who is right and who is wrong. A left turn inside the pattern puts you in a position where you have the options you mentioned plus the options to simply continue to fly upwind to a standard crosswind, the upwind to exit the pattern by continuing to parallel the runway, or the upwind to confirm that the crazy twin has landed and there are no others on final and in that case you can proceed to exit the pattern by crossing over the runway. You also have a good bit of vertical space where there should be no other aircraft while you assess the rest of the traffic situation.

 

[William Pete Hodges]

I will amend my answer to include a climbing left turn or a level left turn depending on altitude. I also agree that running parallel upwind between the runway and the downwind leg is a good choice especially if you are still below traffic pattern altitude like 300-700 AGL. You can always reenter at the mid field crosswind so long as space is available, or exit the pattern by passing under the downwind traffic.

Hello everyone. I know this is an old thread but I am glad I participated when I did because today this discussion saved my life and the life of another pilot. I want to add here that I never thought I would ever find myself in this situation, but here I was right in the middle of it!

I have been very busy at work lately and haven't been able fly as much as I'd like. Today I found some free time near the airport so I decided to take to the air and practice my short field technique in anticipation of some grass work soon to come. The rain was expected between noon and 12:30 and I was in the pattern about 10:30. The wind was light favoring RWY-4, the sky overcast at 11000 with some variable haze in the air. There was one other airplane in the pattern about 1/3 pattern distance apart from me. He was also doing full stop landings. As he left the runway and called clear I would depart. As I called clear after landing he was on base and turning final, so I would hold short and wait for him to clear before departing.

On my 4th takeoff I called "departing RWY-4 and remaining in the pattern". I called "left crosswind RWY-4 Full Stop" then "left downwind RWY-4 Full Stop". After that the other airplane called left crosswind as I am setting Gear-Flaps-Trim. I began descending and I hear a call for "Straight in approach" from a 3rd aircraft. I looked in that direction and did not see him, and did not see him on the fish finder. I make my base turn and called
"left base RWY-4 Full Stop" when I was at 700 feet AGL. Still descending in the base leg and I hear "straight in 2 mi final" in my ear. I look and still don't see him but he is on the fish finder, 1 mile to my right and 300 feet above me, with the runway about 1 mile on my left. I am in position to think about my turn to final and I THOUGHT OF THIS THREAD.

I immediately called "aborting base leg and returning to downwind" and I executed a flat left 180 degree turn, exactly as discussed in this thread! There was no hesitation on my part. I could have done my radio call better. I should have called " aborting base leg, left 180 degree turn towards downwind " but other than that everything went as planned. I next called "entering extended left downwind RWY-4 Full Stop" but I entered at about 700 AGL. The third aircraft called "we'll do a quick touch and go and be out of your way" acknowledging that they had disrupted the pattern.

I landed without incident and so did the second aircraft in the pattern behind me. I decided to call it a day. I shutoff my bird at 11:10 am in front of my hangar. After putting the bird away I got on my EUC and took a spin around the airport. I met some nice people in the warbirds hangar. It was a good day.

I know that some people on web pages are sometimes a PITA, but not everyone and sometimes a thread like this can help you to think about your flying habits and help you avoid a bad situation if one arises. I just want to thank everyone involved in this thread for their caring and diligence. I know that before I read this thread I may not have made the same decision I made today. Thinking about what to do and why to do it beforehand is absolutely beneficial to good piloting skills. Thank you all very much.

 

[Pinecone]

You turned 180 from your base leg?????????

IMO, the proper response would be to turn early for final, but initial a go around.

 

[PaulS]

I think you did an awesome job. I wouldn’t turn onto the final either. About the only thing I might have done differently is waited on the base turn. Don’t be shy on the radio about saying you are ready to turn base and asking the yguy where he is.

 

[Daleandee]

About the only thing I might have done differently is waited on the base turn. Don’t be shy on the radio about saying you are ready to turn base and asking the yguy where he is.

Seems the right approach when on downwind and you hear a call from a plane on final. "Bug-smasher N123A extending downwind, looking for traffic on final approach."

 

[Palmpilot]

Hello everyone. I know this is an old thread but I am glad I participated when I did because today this discussion saved my life and the life of another pilot. I want to add here that I never thought I would ever find myself in this situation, but here I was right in the middle of it!

I have been very busy at work lately and haven't been able fly as much as I'd like. Today I found some free time near the airport so I decided to take to the air and practice my short field technique in anticipation of some grass work soon to come. The rain was expected between noon and 12:30 and I was in the pattern about 10:30. The wind was light favoring RWY-4, the sky overcast at 11000 with some variable haze in the air. There was one other airplane in the pattern about 1/3 pattern distance apart from me. He was also doing full stop landings. As he left the runway and called clear I would depart. As I called clear after landing he was on base and turning final, so I would hold short and wait for him to clear before departing.

On my 4th takeoff I called "departing RWY-4 and remaining in the pattern". I called "left crosswind RWY-4 Full Stop" then "left downwind RWY-4 Full Stop". After that the other airplane called left crosswind as I am setting Gear-Flaps-Trim. I began descending and I hear a call for "Straight in approach" from a 3rd aircraft. I looked in that direction and did not see him, and did not see him on the fish finder. I make my base turn and called
"left base RWY-4 Full Stop" when I was at 700 feet AGL. Still descending in the base leg and I hear "straight in 2 mi final" in my ear. I look and still don't see him but he is on the fish finder, 1 mile to my right and 300 feet above me, with the runway about 1 mile on my left. I am in position to think about my turn to final and I THOUGHT OF THIS THREAD.

I immediately called "aborting base leg and returning to downwind" and I executed a flat left 180 degree turn, exactly as discussed in this thread! There was no hesitation on my part. I could have done my radio call better. I should have called " aborting base leg, left 180 degree turn towards downwind " but other than that everything went as planned. I next called "entering extended left downwind RWY-4 Full Stop" but I entered at about 700 AGL. The third aircraft called "we'll do a quick touch and go and be out of your way" acknowledging that they had disrupted the pattern.

I landed without incident and so did the second aircraft in the pattern behind me. I decided to call it a day. I shutoff my bird at 11:10 am in front of my hangar. After putting the bird away I got on my EUC and took a spin around the airport. I met some nice people in the warbirds hangar. It was a good day.

I know that some people on web pages are sometimes a PITA, but not everyone and sometimes a thread like this can help you to think about your flying habits and help you avoid a bad situation if one arises. I just want to thank everyone involved in this thread for their caring and diligence. I know that before I read this thread I may not have made the same decision I made today. Thinking about what to do and why to do it beforehand is absolutely beneficial to good piloting skills. Thank you all very much.

Yay!

 

[Palmpilot]

You turned 180 from your base leg?????????

IMO, the proper response would be to turn early for final, but initial a go around.

When it comes to an urgent need for collision avoidance, I think the proper response very much depends on how many other aircraft are in the pattern, and where they are.

 

[dbahn]

TALK TO EACH OTHER and work it out. An aircraft on final has right of way.

A flight in the Cub yesterday reminded me why you cannot always "TALK TO EACH OTHER and work it out". One aircraft may be talking to himself if the other is NORDO.

I had already turned final in the Cub when a C172 that had been holding at the run-up area pulled onto the runway for takeoff. I don't know if he EVER knew there was a conflict even though he may have been communicating his every intention. I was right alongside of him on the upwind go-around when he began his takeoff roll. I just kept him in sight and re-entered the pattern when he was well clear.

The procedures for operating at non-towered fields were written with aircraft without radio capability in mind, and unless and until radios are mandated you simply cannot rely on communication to resolve conflict. The Watsonville accident demonstrates how pilots can communicate with each other all the way to the collision.

 

[Pinecone]

When it comes to an urgent need for collision avoidance, I think the proper response very much depends on how many other aircraft are in the pattern, and where they are.

The BIG problem is, if there is an airplane behind you on a closer in base. You have now turned into their path and possibly nose to nose.

Doing a 180 on base has you going in a different direction that expected in a place not expected by anyone.

 

[dbahn]

I agree. The whole concept of the traffic pattern is one of flow, basically a whirlpool rotating counterclockwise around most runways. To the extent possible when there's a conflict you want to widen the flow pattern, not narrow it, while you sort out options, which is what the upwind go-around does but it's also logical and wise not cross the final approach course if an aircraft is on final close to the field. A 90 degree turn to parallel the runway on the pattern side puts you where few if any planes are likely to be (except mid-field crosswinds, of course).

 

[Checkout_my_Six]

Why can't we all just get along?

 

[Palmpilot]

The BIG problem is, if there is an airplane behind you on a closer in base. You have now turned into their path and possibly nose to nose.

Doing a 180 on base has you going in a different direction that expected in a place not expected by anyone.

Not all emergencies have perfect solutions. Doing a conventional go-around procedure would have the disadvantage of the faster aircraft being behind you where you can't see them any longer.

 

[Rcmutz]

If I’m on base and the 340 has called a 3 mile final, I’d let them know I’m on a base and see what they decide to do. If I

Hello everyone. I know this is an old thread but I am glad I participated when I did because today this discussion saved my life and the life of another pilot. I want to add here that I never thought I would ever find myself in this situation, but here I was right in the middle of it!

I have been very busy at work lately and haven't been able fly as much as I'd like. Today I found some free time near the airport so I decided to take to the air and practice my short field technique in anticipation of some grass work soon to come. The rain was expected between noon and 12:30 and I was in the pattern about 10:30. The wind was light favoring RWY-4, the sky overcast at 11000 with some variable haze in the air. There was one other airplane in the pattern about 1/3 pattern distance apart from me. He was also doing full stop landings. As he left the runway and called clear I would depart. As I called clear after landing he was on base and turning final, so I would hold short and wait for him to clear before departing.

On my 4th takeoff I called "departing RWY-4 and remaining in the pattern". I called "left crosswind RWY-4 Full Stop" then "left downwind RWY-4 Full Stop". After that the other airplane called left crosswind as I am setting Gear-Flaps-Trim. I began descending and I hear a call for "Straight in approach" from a 3rd aircraft. I looked in that direction and did not see him, and did not see him on the fish finder. I make my base turn and called
"left base RWY-4 Full Stop" when I was at 700 feet AGL. Still descending in the base leg and I hear "straight in 2 mi final" in my ear. I look and still don't see him but he is on the fish finder, 1 mile to my right and 300 feet above me, with the runway about 1 mile on my left. I am in position to think about my turn to final and I THOUGHT OF THIS THREAD.

I immediately called "aborting base leg and returning to downwind" and I executed a flat left 180 degree turn, exactly as discussed in this thread! There was no hesitation on my part. I could have done my radio call better. I should have called " aborting base leg, left 180 degree turn towards downwind " but other than that everything went as planned. I next called "entering extended left downwind RWY-4 Full Stop" but I entered at about 700 AGL. The third aircraft called "we'll do a quick touch and go and be out of your way" acknowledging that they had disrupted the pattern.

I landed without incident and so did the second aircraft in the pattern behind me. I decided to call it a day. I shutoff my bird at 11:10 am in front of my hangar. After putting the bird away I got on my EUC and took a spin around the airport. I met some nice people in the warbirds hangar. It was a good day.

I know that some people on web pages are sometimes a PITA, but not everyone and sometimes a thread like this can help you to think about your flying habits and help you avoid a bad situation if one arises. I just want to thank everyone involved in this thread for their caring and diligence. I know that before I read this thread I may not have made the same decision I made today. Thinking about what to do and why to do it beforehand is absolutely beneficial to good piloting skills. Thank you all very much.

I think in your situation, since you heard the straight in call PRIOR to turning base, I would of gone slow flight and continued downwind, and let him know I was extending my downwind until I saw him off my left wing and then turned base. We practice slow flight just for that reason. Glad it worked out ok for you, but could of been a disaster if your turned back onto the downwind into another airplane on downwind.

 

[Skip Miller]

I was on a straight in to runway 11 at KHPN, White Plains, NY - a towered airport. Due to faster jet traffic landing on 16, the tower asked me to do a right 360, while I was at 400 feet! I successfully executed a two minute 360 at 400 feet agl. But I was upset enough at the call that close to the ground, that I filed an ASRS report.

Comments? I really think the controller lost the bubble for a while, and my maneuver - almost in extremis - bailed him out.

ps: this was a long time ago.

-Skip

 

[dbahn]

I was on a straight in to runway 11 at KHPN, White Plains, NY - a towered airport. Due to faster jet traffic landing on 16, the tower asked me to do a right 360, while I was at 400 feet! I successfully executed a two minute 360 at 400 feet agl. But I was upset enough at the call that close to the ground, that I filed an ASRS report.

Comments? I really think the controller lost the bubble for a while, and my maneuver - almost in extremis - bailed him out.

ps: this was a long time ago.

-Skip

What's wrong with a right 360 at 400 feet?

Add some power and have fun! The jet passengers might be entertained as well.

(No problem with the ASRS, though. You don't have to have done anything wrong to file one and help the system.)

 

[Pinecone]

Not all emergencies have perfect solutions. Doing a conventional go-around procedure would have the disadvantage of the faster aircraft being behind you where you can't see them any longer.

Which is why you turn final early and fly parallel on the left side, NOT down the runway.

 

[Kritchlow]

I’m still stuck on “fish finder”.

 

[Palmpilot]

Which is why you turn final early and fly parallel on the left side, NOT down the runway.

I thought you were trying to avoid being in a place that no one expects you to be. Wouldn't people expect you to offset to the right on a go-around?

 

[Skip Miller]

What's wrong with a right 360 at 400 feet?

@dbahn Nothing, as it turns out. In my opinion, it took away my stabilized approach. I can hear my instructor yelling at me now.

-Skip

 

[Pinecone]

I thought you were trying to avoid being in a place that no one expects you to be. Wouldn't people expect you to offset to the right on a go-around?

Except that you would have to cross final to get there.

 

[dbahn]

I thought you were trying to avoid being in a place that no one expects you to be. Wouldn't people expect you to offset to the right on a go-around?

I would fly to the left of the runway in this case as well. Reasons:

1. You avoid crossing the final approach course, where you KNOW an aircraft is heading to the touchdown area at a speed you are just estimating.
2. The landing aircraft should be able to see you traveling in the same direction and off to the left as he continues the approach, and he will be descending as you are climbing.
3. Closure rate is low since both aircraft are flying in the same direction at approach and departure speeds.
4. If the aircraft on final has to go around, he has clear airspace on the upwind.
5. As you continue to climb in the space between the runway and the normal downwind area you can look all around, where the highest risk would be an aircraft approaching for a midfield crosswind, but that aircraft should hopefully recognize that there's already a conflict evolving and should turn to the upwind and do a normal pattern from there.
6. You avoid potential certificate action by not cutting off an aircraft on final approach (91.113). (Intentionally listed last. First priorities are avoiding the conflict.)

 

[dbahn]

@dbahn Nothing, as it turns out. In my opinion, it took away my stabilized approach. I can hear my instructor yelling at me now.

-Skip

A better instructor would be happy you learned something new by complying with an instruction from ATC!

 

[Palmpilot]

Except that you would have to cross final to get there.

If you're saying that it's OK to deviate from expected procedures when they would create a risk that the PIC considers unacceptable under the circumstances, I agree with you.