Legal trouble and getting private pilot license current

Also to note, the FAA specifically asks for convictions which is where the problem lies and causes a legally gray area.

If they wanted to know about incidents regardless of conviction, they should ask about arrest records. Expungements gets rid of court and convictions but typically never touch arrest records at agencies.

Have you ever been arrested is entirely different than have you ever been convicted
 
"Have you ever been arrested" it not a fair question, since a cop in a bad mood could arrest you. You could have been arrested for a crime you didn't commit.

Doesn't stop people from asking though... :(
 
dans2992 said:
"Have you ever been arrested" it not a fair question, since a cop in a bad mood could arrest you. You could have been arrested for a crime you didn't commit.

Doesn't stop people from asking though... :(
Click to expand...

I fully agree. A lot of government paperwork now asks "have you ever been arrested for a crime involving (insert alcohol, booze, etc)".

I can confidently state its trend analysis that has less conflict than "have you ever been convicted". Some people have no conviction records, nothing findable the various major law enforcement databases, but go to their local PD and pull their arrest record and its six pages long. Sometimes its meaningful, sometimes its a minor with a single open container and the arresting officer decided to stack six other charges onto it
 
gitmo234 said:
Hell, I have a brother who called the local prosecutor (to talk to the local judge) for 2 DUIs and a possession of marijuana charge. His statement was "I'd like to get my record expunged, it was 8 years ago and I was just a kid and I'm willing to make a sizeable donation to the charity or organization of your choice".

A few hours later he wrote an $800 check to big brothers/big sisters. His conviction record is clean.

I know how it was worded because I drove him to fax the written agreement.
Click to expand...

Ahhh...so you effectively aided and abetted bribery of a public official?

That's a pretty clear quid pro quo arrangement.
 
Sure, if you can find where the state law defines driving someone to make a charitable donation to an unrelated third party is bribery or aiding
 
Last edited:
gitmo234 said:
Sure, if you can find where the state law defines driving someone to make a charitable donation to an unrelated third party is bribery
Click to expand...

You didn't bribe anyone, but you participated in aiding the person doing the bribery.

Whether the payment is direct to the judge or to a third party on behalf of the judge, it's still a bribe paid in exchange for the judge doing something.

You're right though, the proper term would be "accessory".
 
Incorrect, missouri law, by definition, requires a benefit to the public servant. Donating to a third party (national charity) gives no benefit to the public servant.
 
Last edited:
gitmo234 said:
Also to note, the FAA specifically asks for convictions which is where the problem lies and causes a legally gray area.

If they wanted to know about incidents regardless of conviction, they should ask about arrest records. Expungements gets rid of court and convictions but typically never touch arrest records at agencies.

Have you ever been arrested is entirely different than have you ever been convicted
Click to expand...
Some states also expunge arrest records.
 
Curious....you can probably fly sport pilot assuming you never applied for a medical since 2006 and got rejected. You would obviously need a drivers license which you should have.
 
JeffDG said:
The question of "have you ever been arrested" is not "is there a record of you having been arrested".

Expungement of the record does not change the answer to the question.
Click to expand...


So if you were arrested, but innocent and not convicted, will they still deny your medical? Something tells me that should not be legal, since you committed no crime.
 
dans2992 said:
So if you were arrested, but innocent and not convicted, will they still deny your medical? Something tells me that should not be legal, since you committed no crime.
Click to expand...

The FAA is not looking for legalities, they are looking for medical stuff. If an arrest was later quashed or invalidated or not prosecuted, fine. But it still has to be reported.
 
JeffDG said:
The question of "have you ever been arrested" is not "is there a record of you having been arrested".

Expungement of the record does not change the answer to the question.
Click to expand...

Back full circle to the other issue. An expungement is the legal version of "it never happened" and if the arrest record is included then the individual is legally allowed to act as if it never happened, enforcement or requirement otherwise gets the agency in potentially hot water. Sometimes the states will put into the order language that says they may answer "no" to similar questions.

I understand the question is regarding medical issues but expungement is a gray area that unless you've handled it before, probably shouldn't be speculated on. Personally, I wrote the policy on dealing with expungement and records in personnel and HR matters for a non-aviation related government agency, with full legal review, and have dealt with these issues proffesionaly.
 
And before anyone asks, we handled the issue by wording similar to:

"Have you had any encounters with law enforcement, judges, or similar activities, to include detainment, arrests, expungements, etc involving your use of drugs or alcohol whether prescribed or not, whether arrested, convicted, or expunged since the age of 16
 
JeffDG said:
The question of "have you ever been arrested" is not "is there a record of you having been arrested".

Expungement of the record does not change the answer to the question.
Click to expand...
States that have true expungements will sometimes specifically authorize a "no" answer to all questions. OTOH, some states automatically send expungement information to the FBI.

The question is whether a state law talking about the effect of state law is enough to overcome a federal general question about history (there are federal applications that specifically tell people to include expungements such as the ones recently hacked from the OPM).

As a number pointed out, that's not an easy question to answer without knowing a lot more than we do.
 
gitmo234 said:
And before anyone asks, we handled the issue by wording similar to:

"Have you had any encounters with law enforcement, judges, or similar activities, to include detainment, arrests, expungements, etc involving your use of drugs or alcohol whether prescribed or not, whether arrested, convicted, or expunged since the age of 16
Click to expand...
... a question that would be completely improper in some states. (Not arguing, just pointing out there are many variations on the theme.)
 
gitmo234 said:
Back full circle to the other issue. An expungement is the legal version of "it never happened" and if the arrest record is included then the individual is legally allowed to act as if it never happened, enforcement or requirement otherwise gets the agency in potentially hot water. Sometimes the states will put into the order language that says they may answer "no" to similar questions.
Click to expand...
Nope. State expungement laws have no impact on the federal government.

The feds get arrest records into their database when the arrest is made, and they are not subject to expungement orders, so they keep it.
 
midlifeflyer said:
... a question that would be completely improper in some states. (Not arguing, just pointing out there are many variations on the theme.)
Click to expand...

The FAA is a federal agency... what the state thinks or says doesn't really matter. Major crimes will get recorded in Federal databases and that's the main place the FAA is going to check. A local municipality or state can do what they want, but that doesn't change the past in the eyes of the Feds. What happened happened.
 
rocketflyer84 said:
The FAA is a federal agency... what the state thinks or says doesn't really matter. Major crimes will get recorded in Federal databases and that's the main place the FAA is going to check. A local municipality or state can do what they want, but that doesn't change the past in the eyes of the Feds. What happened happened.
Click to expand...
Not necessarily the end of the story.

Sure, once recorded in a federal database, it's probably going to stay there, although it might get updated if a state, as part of its expunction process, also notifies federal agencies.

But even that doesn't answer at least 2 questions. Does the person responding to the question have to say "yes" (unless specifically asked about expunged charges) or be penalized for lying? And a related one involving the whole concept of separation of powers: if the jurisdiction that defines the criminal offense says there is no conviction, can any other jurisdiction claim there is there still a conviction?

Keep in mind it works both ways. There are federal expungements with statutory language like an expunged federal conviction "shall not be considered a conviction for the purpose of a disqualification or a disability imposed by law upon conviction of a crime, or for any other purpose." Can a state disregard that as well?

Knowing as much as I do about the process, I know enough to know that I don't have the answer, which might well change depending on which state we are discussing.
 
Last edited:
Last edited:
dans2992 said:
Agreed about driving. We're not talking about driving though. Chances are, he's not going to have a midair if he's drunk.

It's a wonder that this person is deemed "OK" to drive, where there is much greater danger of killing others than flying with a Class III.
Click to expand...

^THIS^

It drives me crazy that so many pilots even (let alone non-pilots) somehow think guys like this are more of a threat to society when flying solo as PIC than on the road.

Hmmmm...........how frequently does a GA crash kill someone on the ground.......

vs.

How often do automobile accidents kill occupants of other vehicles.

THOUGHT SO!!

Now I am NOT excusing the OP's past behavior....not at all! What I am doing is condeming the double standard shown by so many who are so quick to say _____ must be grounded, but don't say a word about how they ALSO should have their driving privlidges taken away.
 
Connecticut takes it a step further. They have "erasure". All records are physically destroyed and inaccessible even to law enforcement. They aren't sealed, but rather they no longer exist. Connecticut is one of the few states that has a near perfect record of deleting state erased records in the FBI database. True, the Feds don't need to comply, but they generally do.
 
I probably should have stipulated that is For arrests... No idea about convictions. I think that's where expungement comes into play.

That said, arrest fingerprints initially go to FBI, regardless of conviction.
 
Speaking as a police officer and not a lawyer. I do not think the misdemeanor charges will be the problem of n the long run. The felony possession however will be the headache. I truly hope you have learned from these mistakes, because I'll be honest that felony on your record hurts a lot of things other than your flying.

Best of luck and consult an aviation attorney.
 
brian109 said:
Speaking as a police officer and not a lawyer. I do not think the misdemeanor charges will be the problem of n the long run. The felony possession however will be the headache.
Click to expand...
That's probably true to a very large degree. The problem is when a job market is tight and employers are faced with two "close enough" candidates, one with a small misdemeanor record and one with no record at all.
 
Henning said:
:confused: It's the American Way, it's how we want things.
Click to expand...

Kinda like the posters love of throwing out legal assertions without experience.

Marks answers are pretty much on the money as well as a few others including "get a lawyer", but someone will always have a need to be an e-lolyer because they know better... that is, until they dont.
 
brian109 said:
Speaking as a police officer and not a lawyer. I do not think the misdemeanor charges will be the problem of n the long run. The felony possession however will be the headache. I truly hope you have learned from these mistakes, because I'll be honest that felony on your record hurts a lot of things other than your flying.

Best of luck and consult an aviation attorney.
Click to expand...

Neither a lawyer nor a police officer have insight on the problem which will be aeromedical. With multiple substance related arrests (drug possession, DUI, etc..) he's going to be in for a real fun time with the guys over what the FAA considers a psychological problem (which they completely have their heads up their posterior about anything that smells psychological).
 
Old Thread: Hello . There have been no replies in this thread for 365 days.
Content in this thread may no longer be relevant.
Perhaps it would be better to start a new thread instead.
Back
Top