Learned something new yesterday

[jspilot]

I went flying yesterday originally intending to go on an xc. Got to the airport at 700am because that's when the place I rent from could accommodate me and found frost on the plane. Well since I only had the plane till 915- xc was out. I waited for the frost to melt and decided to stay in the pattern for the 45 minutes I had left in my time. I'm glad I did not scrap the whole thing- because I learned something I may never have known.

I was coming around for my final landing when I was told to follow the traffic ahead. I complied and I was trying to keep it close to him because the tower had several departures to get out including a Southwest flight. The guy in front made a really bad landing and missed the usual turn off. The runway is 7,000 feet so the next turn off was a while. I was about to get ready for a go-around when the tower came on and said, "you are still cleared to land traffic ahead of you on the runway is more than 3,000 feet ahead." I landed realizing I was cleared to land and those are the magic words to land the plane. The guy ahead just about cleared the runway as I touched down. One of the planes behind me asked the tower, " hey are you allowed to have two planes land on the same runway like that?" The tower responded and said, " yup absolutely. The rule is 3,000 feet separation on the ground for single engine and 4,500 for multi."

I never knew this so I thought I would share it here so you guys can know it too.

 

[Kelvin]

Yep.

You never quit learning in aviation.

 

[jordane93]

there is something we can learn. ive learned to always carry a rag with my to wipe off water/frost or any other liquid that might be on the plane so i dont have to wait for the frost to melt

 

[Velocity173]

Yep, 3-10-3 (same runway separation) in the 7110.65. Cat III can be reduced with LOAs as well.

 

[Captain]

Here's a pro tip that may have helped you. Often there is frost on the plane even though ambient temperature is above freezing. This happens in the morning as the sun starts to warm stuff up. So you may well have been in this exact situation.

So, if there is frost on the plane and the temp is above freezing and rising this works: go to FBO and get buckets of hot water. Throw hot water on plane as needed to clear frost. The water melts the frost and warms the skin. The ambient air temp ensures the skin doesn't cool and allow the water to re-freeze.

I've used this technique to clear large multi engines (Piaggio) when stuck without de-ice agent. Make sure the plane is dry before you launch. You don't want a glob of water to freeze in an aileron hinge or something.

 

[jspilot]

Yeah the frost was annoying. It was a tight squeeze to get to my destination and back before my time was up. Thanks for the frost tips guys.

Indeed the temp was above freezing but the dew poit was minus 1.

 

[BillTIZ]

Frost on a plane, turn the wings to face the rising sun. Rags work well to clear frost, a little friction to warm things up. Not good to use cards.

Yes, Multi aircraft on a long runway is an approved procedure.

 

[momalley]

Yeah the frost was annoying. It was a tight squeeze to get to my destination and back before my time was up. Thanks for the frost tips guys.

Indeed the temp was above freezing but the dew poit was minus 1.

This is one of the reason why a few of us LI'ers need to set up a partnership on one or more planes

 

[ajstoner21]

I've had that exact frost thing happen to me before. As far as the separation, I didn't know or remember that. Learn something new everyday.

 

[Graueradler]

Often there is frost on the plane even though ambient temperature is above freezing.

If the plane is not under cover (open hangar) and the sky is clear, you are dealing with radiant heat transfer between the wing surface and outer space. The wing surface will be a couple of degrees colder than air temperature. If you pull a plane out from under a cover under those conditions and the dew point is in that range, frost will form rapidly.

 

[ebykowsky]

They do that at Oshkosh where multiple planes land at once (Bugsmasher 3SP... put it down on the yellow dot. Piper 32T, cleared to land. Put it on the numbers.)

 

[Captain]

If the plane is not under cover (open hangar) and the sky is clear, you are dealing with radiant heat transfer between the wing surface and outer space. The wing surface will be a couple of degrees colder than air temperature. If you pull a plane out from under a cover under those conditions and the dew point is in that range, frost will form rapidly.

Yes, but the hot water brings the skin temp up above freezing. The air being above freezing temp keeps it that way.

It ain't often, but when it is it works great. Sounds like the OP situation would have been one of those times when a few buckets of hot water would have been the difference between sitting on the ground looking at the plane and flying.

 

[jspilot]

This is one of the reason why a few of us LI'ers need to set up a partnership on one or more planes

Here here!

Someone mentioned moving the plane into the sun. We did that and it worked wonders. The issue though is the sun this time of year does not rise above the buildings around the airport until around 800am. It was amazing how fast it melted- probably 10 minutes. I was taxing out by 815 and the plane was literally dripping water off the surface.

I also believe the composition of the material the plane is made from matters too. These aluminum surfaces don't help with the frost conditions.

Interestingly enough, when I came into the FBO, I shared my story with a few of the instructors about the landing situation. Maybe they were just flattering me, but none of the guys I spoke to knew this rule. It makes tons of sense because I touched down at the 1,000 foot markers and could have taken off over top of the plane ahead of me if needed.

 

[Velocity173]

Here here!

Someone mentioned moving the plane into the sun. We did that and it worked wonders. The issue though is the sun this time of year does not rise above the buildings around the airport until around 800am. It was amazing how fast it melted- probably 10 minutes. I was taxing out by 815 and the plane was literally dripping water off the surface.

I also believe the composition of the material the plane is made from matters too. These aluminum surfaces don't help with the frost conditions.

Interestingly enough, when I came into the FBO, I shared my story with a few of the instructors about the landing situation. Maybe they were just flattering me, but none of the guys I spoke to knew this rule. It makes tons of sense because I touched down at the 1,000 foot markers and could have taken off over top of the plane ahead of me if needed.

That's because its an ATC rule. Most aren't going to know it. Outside of doing ATC the only time I was taught ATC rules was as an instrument flight examiner. Even then it was just the basics of phraseology so we could act as controllers in the sim.

Just scan throught the 7110.65 and you'll see dozens of rules or even phraseology you didn't know existed. Like the requirement of the controller to readback an assigned altitude to only us Army types because we have a hard time remembering things.

 

[jspilot]

I'll look through that section just for the fun of it. I'm pretty sure that one group, either ATC or military guys are supposed to read back that " gear is down." I remember hearing that once during a training flight as some form of military cargo plane practiced a touch and go at the airport I fly out of. I remember my instructor telling me that it is an added safety thing for milatary flights. My instructor also has this awesome photo and video of the huge cargo plane doing a touch and go. Of course I missed out on it as I was too busy trying to taxi the plane. One of the benefits of being a flight instructor I guess.

 

[flyingron]

If I'm cleared to land and can land safely I'm not going to have a hissy about someone on the far end of the runway. I only need 850' even in a no wind situation.

 

[V1-Vr-V2]

I'm pretty sure that one group, either ATC or military guys are supposed to read back that " gear is down."

I got that at CYS in the PA28-180 during my long XC. While I knew about the phraseology, it still made me chuckle to hear it. "Cherokee 78L, check gear down, runway 27, cleared to land."

Thinking to myself: "If it's NOT still down, I'm not sure where it is..."

 

[Seanaldinho]

I'll look through that section just for the fun of it. I'm pretty sure that one group, either ATC or military guys are supposed to read back that " gear is down." I remember hearing that once during a training flight as some form of military cargo plane practiced a touch and go at the airport I fly out of. I remember my instructor telling me that it is an added safety thing for milatary flights. My instructor also has this awesome photo and video of the huge cargo plane doing a touch and go. Of course I missed out on it as I was too busy trying to taxi the plane. One of the benefits of being a flight instructor I guess.

My CFIGs were all retired navy they drilled "gear down and locked" into my downwind call. Said it on a few occasions in the C150

 

[Kelvin]

My CFIGs were all retired navy they drilled "gear down and locked" into my downwind call. Said it on a few occasions in the C150

Yeah...roll your eyes if you like but I flew fixed gear aircraft up until about the 1100 hour point...I did GUMPS on each and every landing...transition to retract was a piece of cake...

I ma not saying I will not gear up in the morning...but the process is ingrained in my thinking...

 

[Jaybird180]

Yes, but the hot water brings the skin temp up above freezing. The air being above freezing temp keeps it that way.

It ain't often, but when it is it works great. Sounds like the OP situation would have been one of those times when a few buckets of hot water would have been the difference between sitting on the ground looking at the plane and flying.

Works great until you get water on the front of your pants