Lear 23s

Ted

Ted

The pilot formerly known as Twin Engine Ted
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Oct 9, 2007
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iFlyNothing
They're cheap, fast, and loud. At only 250 GPH or so, what's not to like? Question applies to 24s and 25s as well.

So, what's the restrictions on use due to their noise? Parts seem to be cheap since everyone's dumpsterizing them. What's a 12-year inspection (or the various other inspections) involve?

I'm making conversation, not actually considering one.
 
I seem to recall this discussion a few months ago, and I think the conclusion was that it wasn't economical compared to buying a new jet.
 
As soon as SMO closes, my plan is to go in with a few buddies and buy an old 23, then do passes over the community at 1000' AGL at 2am.

That's the dream, anyway!
 
Here are the listings on inspections for a 24 for sale...

"0" hours since C-1 to C-6 & 1200 hour Inspections
500 since 2400 Hour Inspection
6000 since 12,000 hour Inspection
1000 landings to go to 6000 landing inspection
12 year Inspection done 9-2004 by PREMIUM SHOP
NEW FLAPPER VALVES AND FUEL TANK INSPECTION IN 2011
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Engines could need HSI's pretty soon on this 25.

• Left:
• • Serial Number: 211-087A
• • Time Since Overhaul: 2,935 Hours
• • Cycles Since Overhaul: ~2,358
• • TBO Interval: 5,000 Hours
• • Total Time Since New: 8,508 Hours
• • Cycles Since New: 8,735
• • Overhaul Date: 10/15/1993
• • Overhauled By: Dodson Aviation
• • HSI Interval: 1,000 Hours
• • Time Since HSI: 861 Hours
• • HSI Date: 01/31/2001
• • Cycles Since HSI: ~692

• Right:
• • Serial Number: 211-085A
• • Time Since Overhaul: 2,935 Hours
• • Cycles Since Overhaul: ~2,358
• • TBO Interval: 5,000 Hours
• • Total Time Since New: 8,508 Hours
• • Cycles Since New: 8,735
• • Overhaul Date: 10/15/1993
• • Overhauled By: Dodson Aviation
• • HSI Interval: 1,000 Hours
• • Time Since HSI: 861 Hours
• • HSI Date: 01/31/2001
• • Cycles Since HSI: ~692
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What drives all the inspections? Did they used to fall out of the sky, or poor design/manufacture?

• Inspections: 300 Hour Inspection Complied With 11/21/2014
• • 600 Hour Inspection Complied With 11/21/2014
• • 1,200 Hour Inspection Complied With 11/21/2014
• • 12 Year Inspection Due
• • Landing Gear Inspection Due at 8731 Hours AFTT
• • IFR Recertification Due
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Have to be stage 3 noise compliant by the end of 2015, that's got to be a $$$ thing to do to a 23
 
We know what you're really thinking!
 

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kayoh190 said:
As soon as SMO closes, my plan is to go in with a few buddies and buy an old 23, then do passes over the community at 1000' AGL at 2am.

That's the dream, anyway!
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YES!!
 
Several years ago, I read an interesting article about using Lear 23 wings in building the next generation of Unlimited Air Racer for Reno. Article gave good technical reasons why they'd work great.

That would be something to see! (And you could still fly around SMO at 1,000' at 2 am!)
 
Fast, yes. Loud, yes. Cheap, only to purchase. The 24 & 25s were the most fun plane type I had the chance to fly. BUT fuel consumption is very high on the ground and at low altitudes. The whole plane literally comes apart on a 12 year inspection. I don't know of a Stage 3 STC for the 23/24/25 series.

So, get a bunch of partners, buy one with some time on the engines and between inspections. Fly it until that first big inspection comes up and scrap it.

Oops, one more problem. You'll all have to pay to get the type rating.
 
Duncan Aviation rebuilds a lot of them. You might want to call their sales department a d pick their brains.

PM me for contacts there.
 
Lance F said:
Oops, one more problem. You'll all have to pay to get the type rating.
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Only if you plan to get ramped. Maybe you could bluff them if you wore enough stripes on your jacket?
 
The real secret in underpriced jets is the "Jew Canoe", the IAI Westwind's. They have great range, reasonable fuel economy (less than any Lear), built as tanks, standup cabin, still supported, none of the noise restrictions and can be had for $200K. Only problem is you need 2 pilots. Had these been SP, they would have had 10 times the value. If you ask me, they look sexy as hell as well with that fat twin front wheel, mid wing and low slung fuselage. Like a low rider, pimped out.
 

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Falcon 20's are dirt cheap too, but many of them face the same issue, noise problems.
 
kayoh190 said:
As soon as SMO closes, my plan is to go in with a few buddies and buy an old 23, then do passes over the community at 1000' AGL at 2am.

That's the dream, anyway!
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Can I follow you with a Paris Jet?

I know they are not as nice but since I have worked on a few they look to be cheap on maintance since I know them somewhat well. They only burn 140 per hour. I say only......
 
12 year generally = wing demate.

Some require both engines be removed for it to get jack stands under pylons.
 
Geico266 said:
Duncan Aviation rebuilds a lot of them. You might want to call their sales department a d pick their brains.

PM me for contacts there.
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Not many people are brave enough to bring them an old jet anymore. I haven't seen a tiny Lear in years that wasn't contract maintenance. Can't remember the last time I even saw a Westwind.

Falcon 20 have really strange engines and you never know what you'll find doing cpcp inspections or pulling wing planks.

Edit: I forgot that many F20 have been converted to TFE731.
 
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Ted DuPuis said:
They're cheap, fast, and loud. At only 250 GPH or so, what's not to like? Question applies to 24s and 25s as well.

So, what's the restrictions on use due to their noise? Parts seem to be cheap since everyone's dumpsterizing them. What's a 12-year inspection (or the various other inspections) involve?

I'm making conversation, not actually considering one.
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When a couple windshield replacements cost about half the value of the buy-in price you'll know what the future is of the investment.
 
Isn't the Lear 23 the one that's fuel critical at rotation?

On a trip back from AZ a few years back we stopped at a casino somewhere for a meal. There was a forlorn 23 sitting on the ramp, tires flat, one engine off, and in sad shape. My wife wondered why such a beautiful plane was left to deteriorate like that. I told her we could buy it for $1000, but it would take $500,000 to make it fly again, and about $150,000 per year to go for pancakes a few times.
 
docmirror said:
Isn't the Lear 23 the one that's fuel critical at rotation?

On a trip back from AZ a few years back we stopped at a casino somewhere for a meal. There was a forlorn 23 sitting on the ramp, tires flat, one engine off, and in sad shape. My wife wondered why such a beautiful plane was left to deteriorate like that. I told her we could buy it for $1000, but it would take $500,000 to make it fly again, and about $150,000 per year to go for pancakes a few times.
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I want one for a cheap price just to mount it on a pole and use it as a wind indicator.....:yes::):):)..

IIRC... There is one sitting in the front yard of a house next to I-70 in Misery.....

Pretty kool lawn ornament...:yes:;)
 
Ted DuPuis said:
They're cheap, fast, and loud. At only 250 GPH or so, what's not to like? Question applies to 24s and 25s as well.

So, what's the restrictions on use due to their noise? Parts seem to be cheap since everyone's dumpsterizing them. What's a 12-year inspection (or the various other inspections) involve?

I'm making conversation, not actually considering one.
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Yeah sure, it always starts with, "You know, I was just thinking...".:rofl::rofl::rofl:
 
Sac Arrow said:
I seem to recall this discussion a few months ago, and I think the conclusion was that it wasn't economical compared to buying a new jet.
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Considering the price and economy of the Eclipse, I could believe this pretty easily, even a Mustang... for most people.

Ted though could make it work out for him since he has a low volume use, and you can fly a lot of years on a minimum capital difference of a million dollars if you ar putting 20-30hrs a year on it. The fact that he likes turning wrenches and is good at it, combined with not being on a hard schedule for the plane, he can make it work out. Plus he can probably get into an old Lear for next to nothing since he has a Tax Exempt organization that can offer a tax receipt where as selling these planes is prety much hopeless these days.

Ted's kid will be ready to sit his A&Ps on his 18th birthday just from dad's hangar.:lol:
 
G-Man said:
Several years ago, I read an interesting article about using Lear 23 wings in building the next generation of Unlimited Air Racer for Reno. Article gave good technical reasons why they'd work great.

That would be something to see! (And you could still fly around SMO at 1,000' at 2 am!)
Click to expand...

IIRC it's already been done, and for some reason my memory is linking a tragic result to it.
 
stratobee said:
The real secret in underpriced jets is the "Jew Canoe", the IAI Westwind's. They have great range, reasonable fuel economy (less than any Lear), built as tanks, standup cabin, still supported, none of the noise restrictions and can be had for $200K. Only problem is you need 2 pilots. Had these been SP, they would have had 10 times the value. If you ask me, they look sexy as hell as well with that fat twin front wheel, mid wing and low slung fuselage. Like a low rider, pimped out.
Click to expand...

I always liked those. All the Lears are 2 pilot as well. The advantage to the Lear is he will have a much easier time finding a highly qualified Lear PIC to fly SIC.
 
Noise restrictions....pffft.

Tow her up to 6k and light her off....might require a new checklist...but that's minimal.

We should all consider the possiblities.:D
 
N801BH said:
I want one for a cheap price just to mount it on a pole and use it as a wind indicator.....:yes::):):)..

IIRC... There is one sitting in the front yard of a house next to I-70 in Misery.....

Pretty kool lawn ornament...:yes:;)
Click to expand...

Whelp, I was looking at pulling the jets and tossing a couple of geared pistons on the pylons, but they are awful close to the fuselage. That way I could make it both EXP, and no type cert. Then I looked at some massive internal engine with a long prop shaft out the back, and a prop going through the tail. Weird, but I could get a big block V8 in there at about 550HP with a reduction.

Anywho, it passed, still great looking planes.
 
docmirror said:
Whelp, I was looking at pulling the jets and tossing a couple of geared pistons on the pylons, but they are awful close to the fuselage. That way I could make it both EXP, and no type cert. Then I looked at some massive internal engine with a long prop shaft out the back, and a prop going through the tail. Weird, but I could get a big block V8 in there at about 550HP with a reduction.

Anywho, it passed, still great looking planes.
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You could still get a good turbo stacked Merlin (or better, a Griphon with contra rotating prop) for your core engine, they are still very viable in use. The warbird market has kept them supported. Use a P-51 scoop and radiator, the turbo for pressurization (you're going to shorten the pressure vessel, so you've reduced the volume enough you could do well enough that RVSM needs to be considered) and you have plenty of hot water for cabin heat.

I think the trickiest thing would be prop drive and location to prevent tip strikes on take off and landing. I have some thoughts that old likely manage it though, so yeah, I could see that as a really cool project.
 
Hmm, I wonder what a fuselage fan duct would do? Picture a plane like a DA20/40 with the tear drop cabin and slender tail with a jet intake type duct around the tail with contra rotating blade sets acting as an axial compressor/fan driven by an aft/near CG engine.
 
stratobee said:
The real secret in underpriced jets is the "Jew Canoe", the IAI Westwind's. They have great range, reasonable fuel economy (less than any Lear), built as tanks, standup cabin, still supported, none of the noise restrictions and can be had for $200K. Only problem is you need 2 pilots. Had these been SP, they would have had 10 times the value. If you ask me, they look sexy as hell as well with that fat twin front wheel, mid wing and low slung fuselage. Like a low rider, pimped out.
Click to expand...

No way is the Westwind a stand up cabin, unless your Danny DeVito. They're about the same height as a King Air. I just finished flying one recently for the past 4 years.
 
Luvrv8 said:
Can I follow you with a Paris Jet?

I know they are not as nice but since I have worked on a few they look to be cheap on maintance since I know them somewhat well. They only burn 140 per hour. I say only......
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Now that would really **** off the neighbors. :yikes:
 
kayoh190 said:
As soon as SMO closes, my plan is to go in with a few buddies and buy an old 23, then do passes over the community at 1000' AGL at 2am.
Click to expand...

Luvrv8 said:
Can I follow you with a Paris Jet? .
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I know you guys are kidding...at least I hope you are...and I get the humor.

But...

I can't help but to think that the cavalier attitude that pilots (as a group) tend to display towards the general public makes us our own worst enemy. A little humility and consideration would go a long way but those don't seem to be a common traits of pilots.
 
timwinters said:
I know you guys are kidding...at least I hope you are...and I get the humor.

But...

I can't help but to think that the cavalier attitude that pilots (as a group) tend to display towards the general public makes us our own worst enemy. A little humility and consideration would go a long way but those don't seem to be a common traits of pilots.
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Pilots have alot of humility, consideration and compassion... TILL.. They close down our airport.. Then... ALL hell breaks loose....

In hindsite , a mass of loud aircraft should have circled Daly's house for weeks after he destroyed Meigs...
 
timwinters said:
I can't help but to think that the cavalier attitude that pilots (as a group) tend to display towards the general public makes us our own worst enemy. A little humility and consideration would go a long way but those don't seem to be a common traits of pilots.
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I respect your POV, but still have to disagree with it. I can provide buckets of cases where pilots have bent over backwards to be good neighbors, but the gen pop still wants 'those little planes!' to stop flying around their house. Notwithstanding that they bought a house right under the departure path of a long existing airport. Take a look at what's happening in ORD right now with the modified approaches. People who were never in the path of a departure are now screaming about noise.

http://www.myfoxchicago.com/story/28636672/ohare-noise

You and I know that with small metro airports, it's even worse.
 
Henning said:
IIRC it's already been done, and for some reason my memory is linking a tragic result to it.
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The Miss Ashley II. The pilot was Gary Levitz, he was killed in the crash.
 
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