Leaded gas and the EPA...here it comes

3393RP

3393RP

En-Route
Joined
Oct 8, 2012
Messages
4,241
Display Name
Display name:
3393RP
So it begins.

Optimistic that President Joe Biden’s administration will take action to address the largest remaining source of airborne lead emissions in the country, a coalition of environmental advocacy organizations joined forces with California’s Santa Clara County on Tuesday to press the Environmental Protection Agency, or EPA, to classify leaded aviation gasoline air pollution as a danger to public health and the environment. An EPA-issued finding on this matter would allow the federal government to propose regulatory standards to address the harm caused by a highly toxic additive in aviation fuel.

https://grist.org/regulation/avgas-lead-epa-aviation-san-jose-reid-hillview/
 
It would be one less thing for airport neighbors to complain about. (don't worry, they will come up with something else)
 
It didn't take Nostradamus to see this coming. The government has banned/restricted/taxed more for less. That's why it's disappointing Lycoming/Continental don't offer designs that support automotive fuel. I'm not talking the 'mogas' STCs which prohibit ethanol, but normal automotive fuel from the corner gas station which includes ethanol. I'm sure everyone has anecdotal stories of someone running auto fuel in their Lycoming/Continental engine, but it's likely not supported by the manufacturer.
 
SoCalPilot88 said:
It didn't take Nostradamus to see this coming. The government has banned/restricted/taxed more for less. That's why it's disappointing Lycoming/Continental don't offer designs that support automotive fuel. I'm not talking the 'mogas' STCs which prohibit ethanol, but normal automotive fuel from the corner gas station which includes ethanol. I'm sure everyone has anecdotal stories of someone running auto fuel in their Lycoming/Continental engine, but it's likely not supported by the manufacturer.
Click to expand...
Can’t even run mogas in my o-470
 
No need yet. 100UL pricing is an unknown. If the price doesn't fundamentally increase (over $6-7/gal in flyover country), there won't be any increased demand for diesel retrofits.
 
Ethanol and planes that generally sit for long stretched don't mix. The EPA can say whatever they want. It's the FAA that has final say.
 
Well, 94 octane, non-ethanol works fine in the Cub, and is available at Stewarts Shops, and GBR where the plane is kept.
If you are flying a PiBeeCesMooCir, it becomes problematical, and despite hype to the contrary, there is no good substitute for 100LL.
 
In case nobody noticed, GAMI has announced that their G100UL has been been given STC approval on a limited set of aircraft. They plan to roll out to a full AML in the next year.

A little better than 100LL in detonation margin, and completely mixable in any proportion with 100LL. Can be made in any refinery from off the shelf ingredients, just needs the recipe.

Estimate is that it will be $0.70/US Gal more expensive. STCs will be in the US$200 range. OK, nothing is perfect.

* Orest

----------------

After more than three decades of research and development, general aviation finally has an approved unleaded 100-octane fuel. At AirVenture on Tuesday, the FAA formally awarded a supplemental type certificate (STC) to General Aviation Modifications Inc., the Ada, Oklahoma, company that itself spent more than a decade developing a fuel it calls G100. The fuel would be a drop-in replacement for 100LL which, despite lead content, continues to be manufactured under ongoing dispensation from the Environmental Protection Agency. But it may be quite some time before the fuel is fielded in volume and GAMI says it will probably cost 60 to 85 cents more than 100LL does now.

AvWeb Story
 
This move away from leaded gas is a long time coming. Industry has been working on alternatives for well over ten years. The additive, tetraethyl lead, has been in short supply for a long time.
 
The part about there being no safe level of lead (ie only acceptable level is 0) is questionable. But if true there’s lots of land that will be marked as inhabitable. Lead doesn’t disappear, I imagine there’s lots of lead around from decades of use of leaded auto fuel.
 
I'd argue that leaded avgas would be on its way out regardless of environmental considerations. It's a boutique fuel, and probably not a big money-maker in the grand scheme of things. It's days are numbered.
 
A deleterious effect on the environment by the minuscule amount of lead dispersion from leaded avgas is largely a non sequitur.

But regardless, TEL supply could well be blocked by overzealous regulations. The EU is certainly on track for this, and there are efforts in the US. TEL is produced in the UK, and it seems safe for the moment, and the company is happy to produce it.

The real reason I'm excited by GAMI's approval, is that I can rid my engine of lead, move to synthetic oil, sustain perhaps less fouling and wear, and secure an available fuel supply for engines that require 100 octane. Emitting no more lead into the air is just a bonus.

* Orest
 
Last edited:
SoCalPilot88 said:
It didn't take Nostradamus to see this coming. The government has banned/restricted/taxed more for less. That's why it's disappointing Lycoming/Continental don't offer designs that support automotive fuel. I'm not talking the 'mogas' STCs which prohibit ethanol, but normal automotive fuel from the corner gas station which includes ethanol. I'm sure everyone has anecdotal stories of someone running auto fuel in their Lycoming/Continental engine, but it's likely not supported by the manufacturer.
Click to expand...

You clearly do not understand either the technical or regulatory issues surrounding that idea, and it has very little to nothing to do with the base ability of the engines to run on ethanol Mogas.
 
write-stuff said:
I have an STC for mogas in my C-182.
Click to expand...
Looked into the STC for my '63 pa28-180. The STC is 3495.00 and there's really only 1 airport within a 40 mile radius of my home base that I know of that carries MOGAS. Doesn't make it worth it. I hope that's not the case with G100ul
 
Right now I’m the coolest kid on the block because I get to burn leaded gas that smells great. Without the lead I’m gonna loose cool points.

I wonder what the new GAMI stuff smells like. I hope it’s not like mogas that stinks you up for days after a spill.
 
Racerx said:
Looked into the STC for my '63 pa28-180. The STC is 3495.00 and there's really only 1 airport within a 40 mile radius of my home base that I know of that carries MOGAS. Doesn't make it worth it. I hope that's not the case with G100ul
Click to expand...
You need to price your own delivery and storage solutions. .. off-road tax deductions!
 
*yawn* until the price at the pump for G100UL is known and actually available to dispense, this is all to do about nothing. The implication 100LL will be made unavailable without a replacement available (aka ground the entire national piston engine fleet with prejudice) is just chicken little histrionics on here.

We can conjecture all day about what the price at the pump for G100UL will be, of course. I don't see the economics of 100UL being fundamentally different than that of 100LL. By the same metrics and lack of economies of scale, 100LL should have been $8/gal in flyover country....but it wasn't. A such, I see no economic fundamentals that would make 100UL a +3$/gal markup proposition, which would legitimately kill american recreational piston. So again, all to do about nothing until you see the price at the pump.

TEL is a canard for political kerfuffles. Take that s---- to reddit.
 
Ted said:
You clearly do not understand either the technical or regulatory issues surrounding that idea, and it has very little to nothing to do with the base ability of the engines to run on ethanol Mogas.
Click to expand...

I'd be interesting in learning the complete technical and regulatory story.
 
BPM said:
I'd be interesting in learning the complete technical and regulatory story.
Click to expand...

This will get you started: https://www.avweb.com/ownership/avgas-vs-autogas/

The two most significant (problems) are lower vapor pressure — which can lead to vapor lock — and incompatibility between some of the additives in autogas and some components (particularly seals) in some aircraft fuel systems.

Some engines run okay with auto gas in one airplane, but not in another, due to differences in the fuel system.
 
If you want to create a mass exodus from 100ll, make 100ul cheaper by a few cents. As long as it is a safe and comparable alternative, most people will probably switch.
 
Piper18O said:
If you want to create a mass exodus from 100ll, make 100ul cheaper by a few cents. As long as it is a safe and comparable alternative, most people will probably switch.
Click to expand...

Who's gonna fund that? The petro companies, distributors, and retailers are all for-profit enterprises.
 
kyleb said:
Who's gonna fund that? The petro companies, distributors, and retailers are all for-profit enterprises.
Click to expand...
Let's say those profit oriented companies were to artificially reduce the price of G100ULto be lower than 100ll. The switchover would happen just as fast as the supply allowed. Then once the switchover is complete, what do you think those profit minded companies will do?
 
write-stuff said:
This move away from leaded gas is a long time coming. Industry has been working on alternatives for well over ten years. The additive, tetraethyl lead, has been in short supply for a long time.
Click to expand...
If TEL were in short supply the how is that I have never been unable to but 100LL? Seems like plenty of TEL based on my purchases.
 
Snowmass said:
If TEL were in short supply the how is that I have never been unable to but 100LL? Seems like plenty of TEL based on my purchases.
Click to expand...
I don't think the problem is so much short supply as it is the fact that there is only one supplier.
 
JOhnH said:
I don't think the problem is so much short supply as it is the fact that there is only one supplier.
Click to expand...
I've heard that there are also distribution issues due to the fact that leaded gas can't be transported through the same pipelines (and trucks?) that transport unleaded gas.
 
kyleb said:
You're an airplane owner. The media and masses are 100% certain you're rich.
Click to expand...
How about us renters? (We may be the majority of GA pilots, based on the number of pilots vs the number of aircraft.)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top